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Sweetwood 11.1 Theater destroy and rebuild

post #1 of 840
Thread Starter 
OK, I have finally decided to go ahead and redo my already done theater to take advantage of 11.1 speakers and a much more sound proof theater. The theater is roughly 23x19. I will take exact measurements as I do an overhead floor plan.

The current theater is in my basement and was finished from an already began room when I bought the house and was not designed for a theater. Hence sound goes throughout my house and I am forced to listen to my theater at ultra low levels when others are upstairs and need quite. I've had it with being super quite so out goes the drywall and all and its time to redo it along with some new equipment. I'll list my equipment below along with pics and the items I am adding.

Guidance along the way will be greatly appreciated from all.

Current equipment
-Denon 4806
-JVC RS1
-Panamorph motorized 2.35 lens
-DIY curved AT 13' screen
-Def tech BP7000sc, CLR 3000, bpx's, Supercube
-DVDO VP50
-Key digital video switcher
-Control4 home automation
-2 400 disc sony changers
-2 Directv HD tivo receivers
-Panasonic bluray player
-Samsung 1600 bluray player
-Monster cable power conditioner
-Xbox360
-Wii










Now to the new stuff I am going to add

-Denon 4810ci
-Height and width speakers
-22.5tb Movie server
-Control4 media streamer
-Control4 upgraded main unit(faster speeds)
-Control4 seperate HVAC controls for theater
-Popcorn hour C200 streamer
-4 seat theater seats for rear row
-New rear stage
-Emotiva 2x250 amp for mains
-Middle atlantic rack for equipment
-Tray ceiling with rope lights
-16:9 masking for 2.35 screen
-Newer wiring
-New lighting

I already have the Popcorn hour, Server, Rack, Some wiring, 3 buckets of green glue and sound caulk, and Emotiva amp is ordered. Here are two pics of the rack and the server. I want to install the rack in the room before you would enter my theater to eliminate the sound and lights it makes in the theater.




My next steps are getting someone lined up to do the framing and drywall work. I have the HVAC setup and will have done when I have the drywall all setup. My goal is to reduce the amount of sound that leaks out of the theater and I will most likely not have any holes in the drywall except for the electrical plugs which I will be sure to seal off the best as I can. The screen can go forward about 3 feet or so and I will do that. The only reason right now it is out is because I had built arches and pillars for a previous motorized screen which when I did the 2.35 conversion I just put the screen in front of it. I then am planning to put a barrier wall/hallway when entering the theater almost exactly like it is in the theater. A false 3' hallway directing you to the right or left that I will hang my movie posters on as decoration. So when you would look in the doors you would only see a wall and have to walk to the side. That way I can have a second row platform about 12' wide with an easy 3' on each side. I think it will add to the theater effect.

My questions are at this point any guidance to help ensure I do everything right at this stage. I am going to use tubing for wiring so that I can run other stuff in the future if need be. I dont want to use a hat channel and whisper clips because my ceiling is already not high enough as I would prefer. About 7.5 feet tall. Any sound proofing advice and/or pre planning items I am not thinking about would be greatly appreciated.
post #2 of 840
Nice Theater. Warm and inviting.
Its too bad you cant enjoy it the way you would like to. I think you are going to lose some ceiling height if you want to isolate the room the way you want.
You really should talk with a pro about sound proofing that area before you do anything else. That seems to be the primary reason for the remodel and if you dont get it right you will be in the same situation you have now.
post #3 of 840
Thread Starter 
I don't even know how I would start to find someone qualified to help isolate the sound. Or even how much something like that costs. I've done alot of research although I am no pro. I know it wont be completely isolated because I know that it would take way more than what I want to do for that to occur and I have limited height in the room. My plan is for double drywall and green glue all the way around with no can light holes unless I do very few with seperate soundproof housings for them and seperate HVAC ducts for this room alone. Also I am doing insulation. I know if I keep the double doors they will leak sound even though I am going to install some seals to them but I am ok with that. The sound coming out from the doors isnt that big of a deal. It is more the fact that the living room above it and the master bedroom next to that transfer way to much sound and the way it is now there is basically no soundproofing at all.

Does anyone know if the floors can be treated reasonably or is it not that effective. I am looking for the biggest bang for my buck not as a cost savings way but I dont need it completely sound proof. Just the majority.
post #4 of 840
Thread Starter 
Has anyone heard of or done green glue on the studs before drywall?
post #5 of 840
Lelu Dallas MuhltiPahs.
post #6 of 840
Thread Starter 
Who is that that you just listed?
post #7 of 840
Hi Adam.
Nice space ya got there.
I thought I was the only one with a fireplace in my HT room.
I haven't visited this place for some time.
Pay no attention to dchaves.
It's a line from The 5th Element.
We put a bead of GG on all of the framing in my HT room.
Not sure of the effectiveness, but with all of the effort we went to it was like "why not?"
Is the bedroom adjacent to the fireplace wall or the opposite one.
I see your biggest concern it sound leakage to the room above your HT.
You'll definitely want to use RSIC clips, hat channel, GG & double 5/8" drywall on the ceiling.
post #8 of 840
Thread Starter 
I cant believe I didnt get that quote. Thats one of my fav movies. The master is on the fireplace side. That is in the corner of the master and then the master goes past the rear of the theater but there is no fireplace in the master. We do have a room attached to our master that is a reading room and closed off with just pocket doors that goes towards the front of the theater and is right above our utility room. You access the utility room via the door right beside the fireplace.

I do want to reduce the noise but would prefer not to use clips and channels unless it will make a huge LFE difference. Right now I shake the windows on the second story.

I have two main concerns with rails and clips. One is the height which really isnt huge since it is only 1-1.5 inches although since the air ducts for the house HVAC is right where you enter the house and I am 6'5" I come really close to them now but since this isnt attached to the floor joists I probably could rig the rubber stud mounts for that area and I am also going to do soffits and I thought I read somewhere you shouldnt mount soffits when you are using rails and clips.

Will they make that big of a difference?
post #9 of 840
Hello Adam... Cool another Indiana build!!

Bummer you cant enjoy your current theater in its present state, its a great looking space.

There is a lot of valuable information and advice on this site regarding sound isolation. if you truly want to begin understanding the various elements of sound isolation .. mass/decoupling/dampening/absorption/flanking etc.. I would start with reading the Green Glue Thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=456614

or

Heres another old thread that has some of the same information/principals of isolation condensed into a shorter version

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archi.../t-452667.html

The soundproofing company also has a wealth of information on their site

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/

This is probably where you'll buy your Green Glue, Ted White and John Hile from the soundproofing company are great guys and will spend all the time you need answering questions from my experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

Has anyone heard of or done green glue on the studs before drywall?

Some people played with this a few years ago, but I believe the general concensus was that the benefit (if any) was not worth the effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post


I do want to reduce the noise but would prefer not to use clips and channels unless it will make a huge LFE difference. Right now I shake the windows on the second story.

The real gains in dampening Ie using GG between the muiltiple layers of Drywall, comes when used in conjunction with decoupling.. ie staggered studs or clips and channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

I am also going to do soffits and I thought I read somewhere you shouldnt mount soffits when you are using rails and clips.

Will they make that big of a difference?

Many people build soffits and use rails and clips.. they typically build the soffits using minimal framing techniques after the "Isolated Room Shell" is completed.

Good luck

Brad
post #10 of 840
Thread Starter 
I already got 3 pals of GG from John at SPC along with some sound silicone. How would one go about mounting the soffits to just the drywall? It doesnt sound safe to me. I would think they need to be mounted to studs. I almost ordered whisperclips from him for my ceiling but didnt think it would work with soffits and the boxing I have to do with air ducts.
post #11 of 840
Thread Starter 
I actually just looked at the pdf that John sent when I ordered the green glue and there is a method to install the whisperclips so that they dont hang down except for 1/2" more than mounting the drywall to the ceiling joist themselves. I think I will go with the whisperclips for the ceiling at least. Will I get alot from getting them for the side walls too?

Has anyone used spray insulation expanding foam to isolate their room? I would think that if I used the spray foam and then regular insulation on top of that that would make a big difference.
post #12 of 840
what about that fireplace? I have no idea, but that may cause some issue
post #13 of 840
Thread Starter 
I'm pretty sure the fireplace is ok with no sound leakage as it doesnt share a chimney with the upstairs. It is seperate. I also tried listening in the chimney while it is on and it seems ok. I am thinking of some way to add a removable plug in case I want to use it but havent come up with anything yet.
post #14 of 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

Hi Adam.
Nice space ya got there.
I thought I was the only one with a fireplace in my HT room.
I haven't visited this place for some time.
Pay no attention to dchaves.
It's a line from The 5th Element except he doesn't know how to spell.
We put a bead of GG on all of the framing in my HT room.
Not sure of the effectiveness, but with all of the effort we went to it was like "why not?"
Is the bedroom adjacent to the fireplace wall or the opposite one.
I see your biggest concern it sound leakage to the room above your HT.
You'll definitely want to use RSIC clips, hat channel, GG & double 5/8" drywall on the ceiling.

I was spelling it the way she says it. Great movie.
post #15 of 840
Thread Starter 
OK, so if I did whisperclips along with dd and gg on the ceiling and dd and gg on the side walls, no can lights, bass absorption soffits along with insulation all around is there anything else I should consider to help eliminate sound (mainly bass) to the upstairs?

I had mentioned spray expanding foam insulation on top of insulation. Has anyone used this? also is there anything else I am forgetting? I am going to beef up the door sound proofing so I have those covered. Anything else that I should consider before teardown begins?
post #16 of 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

OK, so if I did whisperclips along with dd and gg on the ceiling and dd and gg on the side walls, no can lights, bass absorption soffits along with insulation all around is there anything else I should consider to help eliminate sound (mainly bass) to the upstairs?

I had mentioned spray expanding foam insulation on top of insulation. Has anyone used this? also is there anything else I am forgetting? I am going to beef up the door sound proofing so I have those covered. Anything else that I should consider before teardown begins?

Expanding foam is a no no... It's too rigid and will only help the sound travel.

Looks like you have everything covered. I clipped my soffit with DC-04's from the SoundProofing company. Ted and John have a number of great sound isolation techniques. You may want to ping them...

I also did Silenseal on all gaps in the DD and on all sill plates. Basically any gap. In addition, I used PuttyPads on all boxes (outlets and sconces and passthroughs for sub cable, serial for the DD-15's and CAT6/HDMI to the front of the risers. I did the latter to allow me to plug my laptop in to project - just in case you were wondering why I ran HDMI to the front of the riser.

Good luck!

****Whoo Hoo - just noticed this was my 100th post****
post #17 of 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

OK, so if I did whisperclips along with dd and gg on the ceiling and dd and gg on the side walls, no can lights, bass absorption soffits along with insulation all around is there anything else I should consider to help eliminate sound (mainly bass) to the upstairs?

I had mentioned spray expanding foam insulation on top of insulation. Has anyone used this? also is there anything else I am forgetting? I am going to beef up the door sound proofing so I have those covered. Anything else that I should consider before teardown begins?

Adam.. Ted White from the soundproofing company is an active member on this site.. Hopefully he will chime in on your situation.

It will all boil down to weighing the cost/hastle vs the benefits and trying to balance with your wants/needs for sound isolation.

Some things to think about:
With the ceiling your planning on clips and DD and GG. Decoupling and Dampening, a great combination, and when you throw in insulation (regular pink fiberglass, definately not spray foam) to reduce ressonance in the joist cavity it makes it difficult for the vibrations to transfer through the joists, and joist cavities, and pass "Sound" on the other side...

However your walls will be exposed to the same vibrational energy as your ceiling and will also transfer vibrations to the same joists (flanking) because your walls top plate is nailed to the joists.. this the same path that rattles your widows on the second story now, particullarly if your walls are stacked like in a stairwell..

Using just DD and GG on the walls will help "reduce" the vibrations because of additional mass and dampening, but not nearly as well as if you also decouple your walls, because you still have "Hard" mechanical coupling from the theater to the rest of the structure.

As an example.. if you really need/want sound isolation, particullarly for the LFE, you would basically need to decouple the entire room.. This would be done by removing your existing Drywall, using clips and channels on your walls, framing double wall, or taking down the current wall framing and reframing walls using DCO4 clips to connect your walls to the joists instead of nailing the wall plates to the the joists...The DCO4 clips decouple the wall assembly from the rest of the house and eliminate this mechanical path that the vibrations follow.

I know it sounds like a huge PITA.. but again its a balance of what is important to you and what you want to acheive, I belive it is important to understand, so you can base your decisions accordingly. Then you wont go through the time/effort/cost of only isolating part of the structure and being dissapointed with the results.

one last comment.. the in room treatments such as the bass traps planned for your soffits are more for controlling the in room acoustics, and will do little for sound isolation.

Brad
post #18 of 840
Thread Starter 
I was planning on doing the wall isolators as the walls right now were done as 1x1s and I wanted to do 2x4s at least. I forgot to mention that although I dont know what I can do on the rear wall since it is a load bearing wall. I cant make a dual wall as I need all the depth in the room that I can get. What would you suggest? I was thinking that I could have 2x6s that would create a stagger studded wall but didnt know if there was another option. You can see that the rear wall has the HVAC ducts that mount right there against the wall so I'm not sure how to do all of that. Hopefully someone from SPC can help.
post #19 of 840
Thread Starter 
Is there a good place to go to look at different pillar designs? I was thinking of adding pillars to my theater as well.

I couldnt sleep last night thinking about all of the stuff that I need to do and in what order.
post #20 of 840
Thread Starter 
Nevermind on the pillar post. I saw the thread although it didnt have a ton of ideas on it. I'll keep searching.

I think I have down what I want to do with the framing and soundproofing. I still want to talk to the guys at SPC before I finalize it. Then I need the electrical done. If anyone can suggest some lights to go into a soffit that would be nice. If anyone has read Sandmans thread I would like to do something similar to that. I am also doing rope lights and I was thinking that I may need 4 can lights in the middle otherwise it might be too dark in there. I would be sure to sound deaden them the best I can. I am going to run tubing for wiring in my soffits and I still have the HVAC up in the air but I am thinking that SPC has some pdfs on building those. I may even install my electrical outlets in my columns that way I have even less perforations in the drywall.

I do need some advice on a hush box for my projector as it has to be mounted right above the second row and since my ceiling is so low it will be too distracting.

I dont think I am missing anything but advice is always welcome. I have a squeky floor above my theater that is carpeted and am wondering if there is an easy way to fix this with the ceiling being out?

Thanks for all of your help so far. It's brought up alot of things I havent thought of.
post #21 of 840
Thread Starter 
Forgot one other question I have never really gotten an answer to. Stages. Do they serve a purpose when filled with sand. Does it help eliminate sound transmission to other rooms or is the sand there to reduce what the stage would do being empty and it is mainly cosmetic? I am thinking of not doing a stage and need more info about them. Everyone does them and I know how to do it I just dont know if it serves any other purpose than to look pretty and raise speakers up higher.
post #22 of 840
For floor squeeks, you can apply drywall to the underside of that exposed subfloor. These strips would be maybe 15" wide, using a damping glue and drywall screws to secure.
post #23 of 840
Thread Starter 
So if I were to do the striping that would eliminate the speaks and I wouldnt need to do anything with shimming in between the joists and subfloor or screwing down from the top? Seems weird that just adding the drywall and gg would take care of the squeking. If so that is awesome and I will def order some more gg.

Also how much does that add for isolation from the source room. I know that it does some but not sure how much. Would a second layer be worth the effort and money or just one.
post #24 of 840
Thread Starter 
I think I have the back row seats narrowed down. I like these from Berkline

http://www.berkline.com/ht/45187/pr_45187.html

But it seems like most people on the forums go with the 88 or 90s. Is there a reason for that and does anyone have experience with these. I chose the 187 as my top pick because they look more comfy and my wife likes that.
post #25 of 840
Thread Starter 
Ted,
On another note what is your experience with fireplaces in theaters. I would hate to go through all of the effort only to find out that since the fireplace is exposed in the theater that it transfers sound to the rest of the house. Not so much from the chimney but from the fact that it will not be decoupled from the theater to the rest of the house like the rest of the walls that I would do. Whats your take or anyone elses that is reading this?
post #26 of 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

Forgot one other question I have never really gotten an answer to. Stages. Do they serve a purpose when filled with sand. Does it help eliminate sound transmission to other rooms or is the sand there to reduce what the stage would do being empty and it is mainly cosmetic? I am thinking of not doing a stage and need more info about them. Everyone does them and I know how to do it I just dont know if it serves any other purpose than to look pretty and raise speakers up higher.

Building a stage is entirely up to you. I have one because my HT is in the basement with a concrete floor. I've been in HTs that didn't have a stage and didn't notice anything detrimental.
The reason for filling the stage with sand and using multiple layers of plywood\\gg or roofing felt is to make the stage dead.
If you're going to put a sub or subs on the stage, this will reduce the vibration transmitted through the structure especially if the floor is wood over joist.
This a kind of a double-edge sword, imo.
Having subs on a wood floor increases the tactile effect of the LFE but if your room isn't screwed and glued so to speak you can get unwanted buzzes.
Having a dead stage is great for giving subs a rock solid foundation that ensures that you'll hear\\feel just the soundwaves coming from the drivers and lessening the chance of transmitting the LFE through the structure.
Isolating for low frequencies is time consuming and expensive.
The door is the weakest link as far leaking to the rest of the house.
One thing I would recommend when you open the ceiling, replace any metal feeder ducts with good quality insulated ducting.
If the ducts feed into or exhaust from the HT, put 2 90 degree bends in the ducting. This will go a long way in keeping noise from leaking into the central HVAC and getting into other rooms in the house.
If there is a hot air and\\or return trunk, make sure it is connected securely to the framing and encase it in drywall slathered with the loverly GG.
I contemplated putting in a separate HVAC for my HT but after adding up all of the stuff I needed, it just wasn't feasible.
We encased the hot air and cold return to a very high degree and put 3 bends in the 2 hot air feeds and in the 2 cold returns for the room and there is zero sound leakage to the rest of the house from the HVAC.
Much cheaper than a separate system.
And while I'm on a roll here If you do redo the drywall and GG and acoustical caulk etc., etc. you've not only made the room noise tight but air tight as well. Do not under estimate the importance of good ventilation.
The equipment and the viewers generate a surprising amount of heat and CO2
The nicest HT is no fun if it's stifling.
post #27 of 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by adammb View Post

Ted,
On another note what is your experience with fireplaces in theaters. I would hate to go through all of the effort only to find out that since the fireplace is exposed in the theater that it transfers sound to the rest of the house. Not so much from the chimney but from the fact that it will not be decoupled from the theater to the rest of the house like the rest of the walls that I would do. Whats your take or anyone elses that is reading this?

Sorry Adam but you must decouple that fireplace and flue from the rest of the house.
JK
Ted may have a different opinion but not only would I not worry about it, even if you did, what can you do?
I have a fireplace in my HT that goes up into the living room.
There's some sound but nothing that concerns me.
Your fireplace is very cool, imo.
post #28 of 840
Thread Starter 
I was wondering if I would have to cover the fireplace. Seriously. I like the looks but if I can't watch and listen to my theater because of sound leakage than I have a serious issue. Either deal with it and listen at a lower volume to keep the look or cover it up to be able to listen to it at a higher level without my wife growing horns and verbally abusing me. LOL
post #29 of 840
The fireplace is a wildcard. We've done several rooms with fireplaces (hi Milt) and generally things are acceptable. Old masonry fireplaces are massive and that's helpful. What generally fails are newer metal chimneys. No mass and very conductive.
post #30 of 840
Thread Starter 
I guess that is the better of the two answers I thought I would hear from you. It is made of masonry bricks that are gray and probably about 12x8 on the face just guessing. I wasnt sure if they would vibrate. Also you have mentioned that to eliminate floor squeks above to add a strip of drywall and gg and I saw on your company site that 2 layers will almost eliminate any sounds. Does this take care of squeks when they are coming from the nail movement? That seems to be mainly what I am dealing with. Obviously right now I can hear foot steps and when someone walks hard or runs it will vibrate the ceiling and my projector.

Also on a decoupling question. If I want to make false soffits in my theater and use whisperclips on the ceiling and the decouple tabs for the side walls what is the best way to mount the soffit to the drywall without eliminate the benefit of what I just decoupled. This also applies for the projector and I am assuming that if the projector is mounted to the decoupled ceiling that it will be less effected by the vibrating floor above. I also would like to know if the method for mounting the false soffit would apply to the soffit around my HVAC. The bump down right now is only about 2" from my head so if I try to add whisperclips to that and another layer of drywall I will not be able to walk in that area and it is the entrance to my room so that is a huge problem. I may need to tear out my existing drywall around that area to determine the best method but this is what I was thinking.

Since the current soffit houses my HVAC, water supply, and water drain pipes I was going to try to use the whisperclips to as far as I can but I am kind of lost on this area as to what to order.
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