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Panasonic 2010 Plasma Models - Page 118

post #3511 of 5876
I think these are still excellent panels- some of the best being made today. If someone has 8-9G blacks as their main purchasing point, then this set may be somewhat of a letdown in a dark room- maybe.

2011 pannys must be switching over to mostly all Pioneer internals, since D-Nice says that is when he'd upgrade. I guess that'll end the black level rise. However, if blacks on the 14G pannys rose the same amount @ the 3x value as 2010 models, yet the beginning idle luminance is supposed to be lower than a 500m, would it even matter?
post #3512 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I was really looking forward to a shiny 65vt25 being under the Christmas tree this year..not sure that is going to happen now with this information about the rising black levels in the 2010 sets (I will also wait on some real world evaluations as the year goes on but the early information does not look promising)

Well, fortunately you won't have to wait for a year long analysis. Once we get some initial readings on these sets, you can calculate what the final black level will be by multiplying by 3. Then it's up to you to decide if that's still good enough.
post #3513 of 5876
This may be a totally stupid question, but if one were to buy one of the new sets, and also purchase an extended warranty of some sort, would that warranty not cover an issue like the "black level rising" issue? If so, it doesn't seem like near the issue to me personally...

Sorry if thats a dumb question, but lots of retailers seem to sell that extended warranty with the premise of "we will cover things that even the manufacturer won't cover, or replace the set"...
post #3514 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadsherk View Post

This may be a totally stupid question, but if one were to buy one of the new sets, and also purchase an extended warranty of some sort, would that warranty not cover an issue like the "black level rising" issue? If so, it doesn't seem like near the issue to me personally...

Sorry if thats a dumb question, but lots of retailers seem to sell that extended warranty with the premise of "we will cover things that even the manufacturer won't cover, or replace the set"...

I believe that Panasonic has already made a statement that this is being done "by design" (i.e. there is nothing to be fixed) and therefore would not cover under any type of fix as part of a waranty.
post #3515 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

Well, fortunately you won't have to wait for a year long analysis. Once we get some initial readings on these sets, you can calculate what the final black level will be by multiplying by 3. Then it's up to you to decide if that's still good enough.

If blacks somehow measure as low as .0015 or .002 ft/L, I don't think I'd sweat it. Don't think they'll be getting that low unless it's a 58-65" VT25.
post #3516 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy View Post

If anybody is interested, I got a notice from Amazon. The 58" and 65" V10s are back in stock at Amazon. The 58 is $2149. When I had my order in for a 58V10 4 weeks ago my price was $2290 something. This might help give some perspective to the 2010 prices.

It's already at a higher price but it's interesting that they have 14 in stock. Maybe clearing out inventory? Towards the beginning of this thread there was a discussion about whether these were still being produced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

Amazon changes their prices all the time (even within the same day) on many products. Not sure why, I am sure they have done some research that shows the hot times to mark down or mark up items in relation to how it will drive sales.

Very true. I'd be curious about how they do it...especially with how they handle the logic on the backend.
post #3517 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

Well, fortunately you won't have to wait for a year long analysis. Once we get some initial readings on these sets, you can calculate what the final black level will be by multiplying by 3. Then it's up to you to decide if that's still good enough.

Nobody 'knows' if you multiply by 3, or 2, or 5 or whatever. That is the opinion of ONE poster on here....and at this point it is purely opinion. Panasonic is the only source that KNOWS exactly what happens, and you can be sure they aren't telling. Let's wait for some FACTS from long term tests before jumping to such conclusions. I will say caution is in order regarding buying these things though.
post #3518 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

Walt - I have a 2009 V10 purchased in August, July mfg date. My blacks remained excellent until somewhere between 1000-1200 hours.

Since that time (mid-December), blacks have taken at least two noticeable jumps. At first they were a charcoal color. Now they are a medium shade of gray that glows brightly.

...

I have never had the picture on any televison deteriorate as quickly as did my 2009 V10. Do not count on bias lighting to hide the problem should you purchase a new set and it experience the same change in black levels as mine.

Keep in mind that what happened to you is not what Panasonic is talking about with black levels rising. It sounds like you had the issue where your black levels jumped suddenly. That is a defect in the 2009 models that affects some small percentage of the units. The rising blacks Panasonic made a statement about is when the black level rises slowly over the course of a few thousand hours. This happens in all 2009 units and is by design (so not a defect according to Panasonic).

This second instance, the slow rise, is what Panasonic said the 2010 models will have. Hopefully they have fixed the quick jump defect.

It seems like most people do not notice the slow black level rise because it so gradual. Also, we don't know if the slow rise brings black levels to the same end point as units with the quick jumps. Now whether having the black levels rise at all, slowly or quick, is acceptable is another question.
post #3519 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

The VTs will not refresh at 120Hz. You will have 96Hz for 1080p/24 content, 48Hz per eye for 1080p/24 content and 60Hz for everything else (3D will be 60Hz per eye for non 1080p/24 content).

So does the VT20 flicker like the 2009 G10s and V10s (validated with an input of either 1080p@24Hz or 1080p@60Hz)?

Panasonic VT20 Drive modes verus Pioneer Kuro (no flicker - validated, in brackets) --> 2D mode

1080p@24Hz source --> display at 96Hz (72Hz)
PAL 50Hz --> display at 100Hz ?? (100Hz)
NTSC 60Hz source --> limited to 60Hz ???, not 120Hz (72Hz)

From your information 3D will be unwatchable with 1080p@24Hz -->48Hz!
and cause severe eye strain to those sensitive to flicker with all 2D signals, except 1080p@24Hz --> 96Hz, ie all 2D except Blu-ray will be 60Hz. Is this correct?
post #3520 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

Nobody 'knows' if you multiply by 3, or 2, or 5 or whatever. That is the opinion of ONE poster on here....and at this point it is purely opinion. Panasonic is the only source that KNOWS exactly what happens, and you can be sure they aren't telling. Let's wait for some FACTS from long term tests before jumping to such conclusions. I will say caution is in order regarding buying these things though.

I think D-Nice is a reputable source around here

At any rate, even if you refuse to believe him for some reason, we have substantial data from 11g and 12g models and they all corroborate the 3X initial value 'opinion'. Can you produce any data that suggests otherwise?
post #3521 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post

D-Nice,

Using this chart as a point of reference, and talking about the 2009 V10 models, where is the starting point for blacks, and where are they ending up?



Using the eyedropper tool in Photoshop CS, your darkest shade (Twilight Zone) is probably lighter than the starting point for the plasma. It reads (54,54,54)
post #3522 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

I think D-Nice is a reputable source around here

At any rate, even if you refuse to believe him for some reason, we have substantial data from 11g and 12g models and they all corroborate the 3X initial value 'opinion'. Can you produce any data that suggests otherwise?

Are you saying EVERY set has or will have black levels exactly three times as high as when they were new? If so that is not great. I see many display models, and ones in bars etc. in fairly dark environments that still look pretty darn black. ( maybe they were even better when new though...I can say they look better than my 3 year old 60u ever did though) My buddy has a 42 inch just over a year old and the blacks are still great on it. There are many posters on here that say THEIR sets still look fine. Chris from Cleveland Plasma is not gettting complaints either. I still have to wonder just what is 'normal' here.
post #3523 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by twkatadin View Post

Keep in mind that what happened to you is not what Panasonic is talking about with black levels rising. It sounds like you had the issue where your black levels jumped suddenly. That is a defect in the 2009 models that affects some small percentage of the units. The rising blacks Panasonic made a statement about is when the black level rises slowly over the course of a few thousand hours. This happens in all 2009 units and is by design (so not a defect according to Panasonic).

This second instance, the slow rise, is what Panasonic said the 2010 models will have. Hopefully they have fixed the quick jump defect.

It seems like most people do not notice the slow black level rise because it so gradual. Also, we don't know if the slow rise brings black levels to the same end point as units with the quick jumps. Now whether having the black levels rise at all, slowly or quick, is acceptable is another question.

According to Panasonic, what happened to my set is exactly what they are talkng about.

So far Panasonic has refused to send a technician to look at my set as "Your set is normal and this is a design feature. Please enjoy the finest picture in the television industry." I have spoken with CSR's, managers and advanced engineering support twice.

The first person I spoke with from engineering (December) said that Panasonic is aware of the problem and was working on a fix, probably firmware. His estimated time for the fix to be complete was mid to late Febrauary.

The second time I got through to engineering I was informed that my initial contact was wrong. Panasonic does not consider this a problem and there will be zero fix or support for it now or in the future.

From my understanding of reading Panasonics patents concerning this, these changes, all happen within approximtely the first two thousand hours. So even if some people have sets that reach the level that mine do at a slower rate (thirteen months vs. five months), the black level will eventually settle where mine is now. And believe me, this is noticable whether it happens suddenly or incrementally.

Since Panasonic's official stance seems to be that this is planned and nothing that should cause concern, they will not offer support or assistance to anyone suffering the problem whether the problem presents itself as a sudden change in black levels or an incremental one.

I feel it is good that David Katzmier at cNet has now confirmed this on sets purchased by two of cNet's staff. The black level on these sets did increase by 300% as reported by dNice and others.

I feel it is sad that some lawyers in New Jersey have decided to pursue a class action lawsuit against Panasonic as this will probably make Panasonic more resistant than ever to admit to and address the problem.

My V10 continues to have a better picture than the 32" Sharp LCD in my home office. It probably performs as well as most standard LCD sets on the market. However, the set was purchased based on reviews from various sources and from the performance I initially witnessed from the set. If Panasonic would have been forthcoming anywhere in their specifications or description of the units attributes as to the change in the quality of the picture, my decision would have probably been to postpone the purchase. At that time, I felt that Panasonic offered integrity that the other large manufacturers were lacking.

To anyone who is considering a 2010 model, your set will have picture quality that is the class of the industry. Even after a doubling or tripling of MLL, your set will still offer outstanding picture quality. However, it will no longer be the picture quality as seen when your set was new.
post #3524 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

According to Panasonic, what happened to my set is exactly what they are talkng about.

So far Panasonic has refused to send a technician to look at my set as "Your set is normal and this is a design feature. Please enjoy the finest picture in the television industry." I have spoken with CSR's, managers and advanced engineering support twice.

The first person I spoke with from engineering (December) said that Panasonic is aware of the problem and was working on a fix, probably firmware. His estimated time for the fix to be complete was mid to late Febrauary.

The second time I got through to engineering I was informed that my initial contact was wrong. Panasonic does not consider this a problem and there will be zero fix or support for it now or in the future.

From my understanding of reading Panasonics patents concerning this, these changes, all happen within approximtely the first two thousand hours. So even if some people have sets that reach the level that mine do at a slower rate (thirteen months vs. five months), the black level will eventually settle where mine is now. And believe me, this is noticable whether it happens suddenly or incrementally.

Since Panasonic's official stance seems to be that this is planned and nothing that should cause concern, they will not offer support or assistance to anyone suffering the problem whether the problem presents itself as a sudden change in black levels or an incremental one.

I feel it is good that David Katzmier at cNet has now confirmed this on sets purchased by two of cNet's staff. The black level on these sets did increase by 300% as reported by dNice and others.

I feel it is sad that some lawyers in New Jersey have decided to pursue a class action lawsuit against Panasonic as this will probably make Panasonic more resistant than ever to admit to and address the problem.

My V10 continues to have a better picture than the 32" Sharp LCD in my home office. It probably performs as well as most standard LCD sets on the market. However, the set was purchased based on reviews from various sources and from the performance I initially witnessed from the set. If Panasonic would have been forthcoming anywhere in their specifications or description of the units attributes as to the change in the quality of the picture, my decision would have probably been to postpone the purchase. At that time, I felt that Panasonic offered integrity that the other large manufacturers were lacking.

To anyone who is considering a 2010 model, your set will have picture quality that is the class of the industry. Even after a doubling or tripling of MLL, your set will still offer outstanding picture quality. However, it will no longer be the picture quality as seen when your set was new.

Great post.
post #3525 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

this will probably make Panasonic more resistant than ever to admit to and address the problem.
.

panasonic did admit the problem and they have said there are not going to fix it.
post #3526 of 5876
they never admitted it was a "problem", just an event that they expected and consider normal....
post #3527 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

they never admitted it was a "problem", just an event that they expected and consider normal....

Actually they did admit it was a problem. Initially when people started calling they said they are aware of it and are working on a fix. Then when they obviously saw the extent of the problem they made an about face and said it was normal and nothing will be done.
post #3528 of 5876
good thing they have "crack" lawyers on their staff!

oh well, its still the best tv on the market now, so, either live with it, or buy something else..
post #3529 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotlec View Post

Its not trying to synchronyze to the los of brightness at all. Voltage is rissing to prevent pixel misfirring. Rising black is side effect. So your theory is not valid unfortunatelly

Well then, I stand corrected.
post #3530 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

Are you saying EVERY set has or will have black levels exactly three times as high as when they were new? If so that is not great. I see many display models, and ones in bars etc. in fairly dark environments that still look pretty darn black. ( maybe they were even better when new though...I can say they look better than my 3 year old 60u ever did though) My buddy has a 42 inch just over a year old and the blacks are still great on it. There are many posters on here that say THEIR sets still look fine. Chris from Cleveland Plasma is not gettting complaints either. I still have to wonder just what is 'normal' here.

You're being ridiculous. Every set has slight variation. On average they'll end around 300% MLL as when new. This has been confirmed via D-Nice's business contacts within Panasonic. Some users have reported their sets staying pretty black for several thousand hours before making an abrupt jump. Others have had incremental jumps. This points to a quality control problem in addition to the basic issue on the designed obsolescence.

Regarding bars, two factos are coming into play. First, you're drinking which means your eyesight is affected and your attention tends to shift more frequently so you're less likely to be paying attention to the black levels. The second thing to note is that a dark room is not necessarily dark. What I mean is you may have more light than you think, but also more perceived light near the plasma. If you want to get an idea of black level, you need a dark room not just a room that "looks dark". If you're used to bright office lights or whatnot, a "dark" bar may actually still be fairly bright on the scale of things even if it's significantly darker than you're used to. If bars reached critical viewing lighting conditions, you wouldn't be able to actually see anyone, the bartenders wouldn't be able to pour, and massive brawls would likely ensue from everyone smashing into each other and spilling their drinks.

Perception of darkness is different from actual darkness. In a home viewing environment where you have lighting controls to make things nearly pitch black you can get a much better sense of things. In a large establishment with other lights etc... there are far too many variables to factor in. There's also the point that owners of said establishments more than likely have some knowledge of their lighting or hired someone with the knowledge to optimize tv placement and/or lighting for the displays.
post #3531 of 5876
Just went and saw a G25(they only had the 42 inch on the floor so far), and was not seeing the black level that I expected to see. I have a Pioneer 5080 at home and even after playing with the G25 settings, I couldn't get one of the black bars as deep as I'm used to seeing. Too bad, was hoping to get the 50" if its performance was close enough to even first generation Kuros. Got to suck it up I guess and get one of the remaining PRO101FD's around here. More than twice the price but still worth it IMO.
post #3532 of 5876
The more I read about all these problems, the moreI say to myself what a disappointment this is.

After dealing with Samsung ( still not resolved ) on a faulty tv, I was looking forward to the new Panasonic's, specifically the G25. The arrogance displayed by Panasonic is really turning me off, but I have to ask this question:

What are our options, given the price range, besides Panasonic? I kind of leaning towards a LG LH90 but am skeptical about the technology after enjoying plasma for so long.
post #3533 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post

The more I read about all these problems, the moreI say to myself what a disappointment this is.

After dealing with Samsung ( still not resolved ) on a faulty tv, I was looking forward to the new Panasonic's, specifically the G25. The arrogance displayed by Panasonic is really turning me off, but I have to ask this question:

What are our options, given the price range, besides Panasonic? I kind of leaning towards a LG LH90 but am skeptical about the technology after enjoying plasma for so long.

LG have their own plasma line up. I first considered the 60PS60/70 before I heard of their issues with reliability of the panel.

That said, Panasonic are selling a lie (guilty until proven innocent with 2010 PDPs). Pick your poison.
post #3534 of 5876
Allow me to clarify, before even more confusion sets in. If your black levels have doubled, you have experienced a 100% rise in your black levels, NOT a 200% rise. If your black levels have tripled they have risen 200%, not 300%. For those of you who are speaking of 300% increases in MLL (I've seen a few on this thread already) you are effectively speaking of a 4x increase in black levels.

Capiche?

P.S. As long as I am at it, you only use an apostrophe with the word "it's" when you want to say "it is" (contraction). If you wish to say, (in reference to your Panny plasma): "its black levels have doubled" you do NOT use an apostrophe. You don't say "it is black levels have doubled," now do you? Therefore you do not say: "...it's black levels have doubled." You say "its [no apostrophe!] black levels have doubled" or "its colors in THX exhibit a yellowish cast".
post #3535 of 5876
you might want to check the other forums to see what problems there are with other manufacturers..
I think, I mean I am CERTAIN, you will find that EVERY MFG. has their own issues too..
post #3536 of 5876
Weird, but this whole discussion has made me decide to definitely get a TV - not that I enjoy black levels rising, but something else that has been tossed around in between.

Next year's Panasonics will be enough to make D-Nice say it may be equal or better than the last released Kuro's.

2012 we may see the tech (or updated) that produced the R&D panel Pioneer showed off just before throwing in the towel.

I don't want to wait two years, so I can get this now and move it into the bedroom in a couple of years and get the update! Of course, by then we will be hearing about the black hole tech of 2013. I just think if I pass on these, I will end up waiting forever - first it was SED, then it was the 2009 Pioneer which never came, now it is this.

If Panasonic figures out how to fix the issue with a firmware update, then great. If not, I really appreciate all the discussion so I can at least go in with my eyes open.
post #3537 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Allow me to clarify, before even more confusion sets in. If your black levels have doubled, you have experienced a 100% rise in your black levels, NOT a 200% rise. If your black levels have tripled they have risen 200%, not 300%. For those of you who are speaking of 300% increases in MLL (I've seen a few on this thread already) you are effectively speaking of a 4x increase in black levels.

Capiche?
.

I already took care of this earlier today but I appreciate your pedantry it does bear repeating as we don't want any distortions....

That is specifically why I asked D-Nice for clarification and why he edited his post to reflect that and avoid any confusion....
post #3538 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomopolis View Post

Weird, but this whole discussion has made me decide to definitely get a TV - not that I enjoy black levels rising, but something else that has been tossed around in between.

Next year's Panasonics will be enough to make D-Nice say it may be equal or better than the last released Kuro's.

2012 we may see the tech (or updated) that produced the R&D panel Pioneer showed off just before throwing in the towel.

I don't want to wait two years, so I can get this now and move it into the bedroom in a couple of years and get the update! Of course, by then we will be hearing about the black hole tech of 2013. I just think if I pass on these, I will end up waiting forever - first it was SED, then it was the 2009 Pioneer which never came, now it is this.

If Panasonic figures out how to fix the issue with a firmware update, then great. If not, I really appreciate all the discussion so I can at least go in with my eyes open.

I am in a similar bind. I need to get a new TV, because my 30 inch Sammy Slimfit CRT just isn't cutting it anymore. I need something larger and I don't trust Samsung after having had the TV repaired twice (once on out of my own pocket for a bad voltage regulator). I know that a Panny's black levels will rise and I hope that a lawsuit will lead to them correcting the problem, but I cannot wait another year for a better TV. I need to just take the plunge in the next few months.
post #3539 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by drfreeman60 View Post

According to Panasonic, what happened to my set is exactly what they are talkng about.

...

The second time I got through to engineering I was informed that my initial contact was wrong. Panasonic does not consider this a problem and there will be zero fix or support for it now or in the future.

Sorry about that, I hadn't read the black level thread in a while. I knew they had not officially acknowledged the quick jumps as a defect, but I had thought that customer support had told some people that it was a known issue and they were working to fix it. It's really sad that they've now changed their stance on that and are using the press release as an excuse to screw over those with suddenly jumping black levels. That's pretty low.
post #3540 of 5876
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I already took care of this earlier today but I appreciate your pedantry it does bear repeating as we don't want any distortions....

That is specifically why I asked D-Nice for clarification and why he edited his post to reflect that and avoid any confusion....

Thanks. I saw your post, but I saw people subsequent to your post still using the 300% figure as if that was a tripling, so I figured it couldn't hurt repeating. Perhaps they hadn't gotten to your post yet, when they made their replies, which showed up after yours.
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