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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 347

post #10381 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I disagree that the sub crawl is better than measurements, or even all that effective in many cases. Your ears are easily fooled, and subwoofer frequencies are sub-audible so you are very likely to find a point that emphasizes frequencies you hear as louder rather than the best spot for the smoothest and deepest overall response.
Good luck finding bass in a room based on measurements when one doesn't even know if one standing in null or peak.
post #10382 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

Good luck finding bass in a room based on measurements when one doesn't even know if one standing in null or peak.
Don't need luck, just need to remember that even divisions (halves, quarters, sixths) of room dimensions are modal nulls & peaks.

Avoid standing in those locations (moreso nulls, since peaks can be EQ'd).

Better to place the seating at odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room dimensions, where there is the least amount of variation in frequency response.
post #10383 of 15225
Hey guys I've been reading this thread over the past few days after being recommended an F15HP for my room by the good people over at the Ascend Speakers Forums.

My room will be about 15-1600 cubic feet and opens up entirely onto the eat in kitchen area and then finally the kitchen itself. Only the dimensions for the viewing room are accurate in the photo below. I'm not looking to fill this area with sound but it has led to believe that perhaps two subs are better than one.

Here is the proposed are itself:


Would one of these things be sufficient? What is the exact benefit of adding another?

Is their a difference in ordering the subs from Ascend or from Rythmik directly? And is it true that the piano black version is really a 6 month wait? What is the turnaround from order to getting the subwoofer?

Thanks for any input you might have. Trying to gather as many opinions as possible before I pull the proverbial trigger.
post #10384 of 15225
I think one FV15hp would be sufficient, others might disagree. Go with one first to see if the second one is needed (you still get discount from buying a second one at later time). If you don't live in TX or CA, it doesn't matter where you buy it from as it will be the same price and will be shipped from Austin, TX; otherwise, buy from not the state you are in to avoid paying tax. I am in TX, so I ordered mine from Ascent (they are in CA) and it was shipped from Austin.
post #10385 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I think one FV15hp would be sufficient, others might disagree. Go with one first to see if the second one is needed (you still get discount from buying a second one at later time). If you don't live in TX or CA, it doesn't matter where you buy it from as it will be the same price and will be shipped from Austin, TX; otherwise, buy from not the state you are in to avoid paying tax. I am in TX, so I ordered mine from Ascent (they are in CA) and it was shipped from Austin.

Thanks for the input. That is good to know about the discount as well.
post #10386 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Don't need luck, just need to remember that even divisions (halves, quarters, sixths) of room dimensions are modal nulls & peaks.

Avoid standing in those locations (moreso nulls, since peaks can be EQ'd).

Better to place the seating at odd divisions (thirds, fifths) of room dimensions, where there is the least amount of variation in frequency response.

That will work for a rectangular room but not with rooms with openings or odd shapes.
post #10387 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I think one FV15hp would be sufficient, others might disagree. Go with one first to see if the second one is needed (you still get discount from buying a second one at later time). If you don't live in TX or CA, it doesn't matter where you buy it from as it will be the same price and will be shipped from Austin, TX; otherwise, buy from not the state you are in to avoid paying tax. I am in TX, so I ordered mine from Ascent (they are in CA) and it was shipped from Austin.

Just to clarify I'm interested in using the non vented sub.
post #10388 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

Just to clarify I'm interested in using the non vented sub.

What is your mix of music and home theater? If primarily home theater, that is a large open space for a single F15HP.
post #10389 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

What is your mix of music and home theater? If primarily home theater, that is a large open space for a single F15HP.

It is primarily theater. I'd say 70/30. Would 2 solve the problem? Or just one vented. I really like the lower profile of the sealed subs.
post #10390 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

It is primarily theater. I'd say 70/30. Would 2 solve the problem? Or just one vented. I really like the lower profile of the sealed subs.

Ask brian if you can lay the ported subs on its side.
post #10391 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpalmieri1203 View Post

It is primarily theater. I'd say 70/30. Would 2 solve the problem? Or just one vented. I really like the lower profile of the sealed subs.

Do you know the max SPL you listen at, and the lowest frequency you care about? Given that, the distance from the sub to your ears, and information Brian has posted in the past, you can get a decent idea as to whether the F15HP is "enough". Obviously the specifics of the room will have an effect, but it's a good starting point.

For reference, I have a space larger than yours (~3500ft^3 living+dining room), plus a few large openings to the rest of the house, and I calculated than an F15 covers my needs. I have yet to regret that decision, so I suspect an F15HP will be plenty for you as well (unless you like to listen a lot louder than I do).

Two identical subs separated by a reasonable distance apart will do two things for you:
- increase the max SPL by an average of around 3dB
- smooth out the frequency response since they will each interact with the room differently

Hope this helps,
-- Dave
post #10392 of 15225
Why do you not want to go with vented? If it is sound quality, I too had that thought at one time but with Rythmik, they make some of the best sound quality, regardless of sealed or ported. And at some of the subwoofer get togethers (GTG) there were some closed tests and people weren't able to identify whether a sub was sealed or ported.

So with that said, two of the F15HP would be better than 1 but two of the FV15HP would be even better and would give you lots of output in your room. As you can see, there is a pretty big difference between the F15HP and the FV15HP. And remember that +6 represents a doubling of the sound pressure level.
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db
post #10393 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Ask brian if you can lay the ported subs on its side.

I'm sure that would be possible but I currently own an SVS PB12 and the main reason I initiated this search was to find something smaller overall. After reading more about sealed box subs and the servo itself I'm excited to try something different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David_R View Post

Do you know the max SPL you listen at, and the lowest frequency you care about? Given that, the distance from the sub to your ears, and information Brian has posted in the past, you can get a decent idea as to whether the F15HP is "enough". Obviously the specifics of the room will have an effect, but it's a good starting point.

For reference, I have a space larger than yours (~3500ft^3 living+dining room), plus a few large openings to the rest of the house, and I calculated than an F15 covers my needs. I have yet to regret that decision, so I suspect an F15HP will be plenty for you as well (unless you like to listen a lot louder than I do).

Two identical subs separated by a reasonable distance apart will do two things for you:
- increase the max SPL by an average of around 3dB
- smooth out the frequency response since they will each interact with the room differently

Hope this helps,
-- Dave

Thank you for laying out the benefits. I live in an apartment currently and listen at no more than 55dB. I find that when I tease up near 70dB it becomes a bit too much. So for movie watching I'll probably sit at a firm 65dB.

I am interested in targeting some sub 20hz levels in my room. I don't feel that I'm getting that with my PB12 right now and that's probably for the best for my neighbors.
Edited by mpalmieri1203 - 8/27/13 at 7:24pm
post #10394 of 15225
Then the f15hp would be your best bet. Try one first and then add another if you still need more output
post #10395 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Why do you not want to go with vented? If it is sound quality, I too had that thought at one time but with Rythmik, they make some of the best sound quality, regardless of sealed or ported. And at some of the subwoofer get togethers (GTG) there were some closed tests and people weren't able to identify whether a sub was sealed or ported.

So with that said, two of the F15HP would be better than 1 but two of the FV15HP would be even better and would give you lots of output in your room. As you can see, there is a pretty big difference between the F15HP and the FV15HP. And remember that +6 represents a doubling of the sound pressure level.
At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

That's funny about the ported vs sealed listening test..and interesting. I'd like to read more about it! How is the FV15 extension past 20hz without being plugged? Does it basically just become the FV when plugged as in it loses some output?
post #10396 of 15225
A way to go that never gets mentioned is, for those with either an attic or basement, is to have Brian make your plate amp for Infinite Baffle operation. The sub is placed in either with a sealed opening into the room. Massive output, very efficient!
post #10397 of 15225
I understand how IB subs work in cars/boats but not sure how they apply in a home audio setting. I have never been a fan of free air subs, even in my boat I always built enclosures for my subs. Can you explain more please.
Thanks
post #10398 of 15225
Here's one of the prominent sub get togethers where they did a blind listening test and tried to guess which subs was which as well as type (sealed, ported). Definitely an interesting read.

And I definitely doubt you'd be able to hear a difference between an FV15HP and an F15HP. I remember reading about a person being given an audition by Brian and the user wasn't able to tell a difference. I also remember reading about another user listening to a Funk Audio sealed and ported and the only way the person was able to tell the difference was the breeze caused by the port.

Now you asked about port extension. Sealed have a shallower roll off so you will likely find a sealed subwoofer will likely have more output below port tuning frequency compared to a similar performing sealed sub (F15HP vs FV15HP for instance). So with the 18Hz two port tuning of the FV15HP, the roll off below 18 would be pretty steep so the sealed might take over having higher output at say 15 or 16Hz but that is a guess. The sealed might be so low at 12Hz that the FV15HP, even with a steeper roll off might still have more output at say 10 Hz, but again that is a guess. And I should take this time to point out that this is scientific conjecture that doesn't take into account the room, which will give some low frequency gain.

Also, if you plug both ports of the FV15HP, you will have a larger sealed sub and this will give a similar frequency response to the F15HP but a little deeper extension as the sealed enclosure is larger, which goes deeper.

David
post #10399 of 15225
I don't know that much about them, but I believe the driver is installed directly on the backside of the ceiling or floor, and the attic or basement becomes a very large (infinite) enclosure. Of course, you have to know the best location to install it (room modes again), 'cause it can't be moved! And what about when YOU move?!
Edited by BDP24 - 8/27/13 at 8:28pm
post #10400 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

A way to go that never gets mentioned is, for those with either an attic or basement, is to have Brian make your plate amp for Infinite Baffle operation. The sub is placed in either with a sealed opening into the room. Massive output, very efficient!

I would definitely like to hear more about the IB as I could actually fit a few. What frequency extension and output advantage? I think I heard that IB often rolls off at higher frequencies (100Hz?) and I think that Rythmik subs roll off slightly lower than that (80?). First is that correct, and if so can you also speak to the upper extension. Thanks.

David
post #10401 of 15225
If you want slightly more output out of an F15/HP, buy the DIY kit and have a 4 cu.ft. enclosure made. The Rythmik enclosure is 3 cu.ft.
post #10402 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

I would definitely like to hear more about the IB as I could actually fit a few. What frequency extension and output advantage? I think I heard that IB often rolls off at higher frequencies (100Hz?) and I think that Rythmik subs roll off slightly lower than that (80?). First is that correct, and if so can you also speak to the upper extension. Thanks.

David
That's out of my depth. Try a Google search.
post #10403 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post

Also, if you plug both ports of the FV15HP, you will have a larger sealed sub and this will give a similar frequency response to the F15HP but a little deeper extension as the sealed enclosure is larger, which goes deeper.

David
If I remember correctly, this is NOT recommended by Rythmik.
post #10404 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

If you want slightly more output out of an F15/HP, buy the DIY kit and have a 4 cu.ft. enclosure made. The Rythmik enclosure is 3 cu.ft.

Thanks. What DIY kit would I want specifically? I can't make the enclosure myself is their a place that I could purchase one from? Any input you could provide with links would really help me.
post #10405 of 15225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

If I remember correctly, this is NOT recommended by Rythmik.

Now that you mention it, I do remember Brian saying there were slightly different modifications between the sealed and ported amps. Thanks for pointing out that important information.
post #10406 of 15225
DIY SounD group sells kits enclosure. Parts express also sells enclosures
post #10407 of 15225
Ok so I could buy the amp and driver 1510 combo directly from Ryhmik. I'm having difficulty making sense of which enclosure would work with the driver and amp though. Do the interior of the enclosures need to be lined with anything in particular? I've been in audio for awhile but I've honestly never thought of putting together my own speaker.

Would this work?

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/4-sub-flat-pack.html

Would I really get the same sound quality by DIY than purchasing a direct build? Seems like I would save a pretty penny going this route making two even easier.
post #10408 of 15225
Well there are two answers here. To answer the sound quality portion first, you could actually get better extension by going the DIY route as the standard Rythmik builds are approx. 1 cu.ft. smaller than the recommended optimum (right word?). The reason is due to shipping costs of the box subwoofers. The difference would be pretty small but could be a few Hz deeper extension when talking sealed.

So if you were to go with a 4 cu. ft. box with DIY, you'd be getting slightly better extension. However, the 4 cu. ft. flatpack you linked to has an 18" cutout and you'd have to see if they could get you a 15" cutout. If you go with a 3 cu. ft. flatpack, you'd get about the same output as a Rythmik built sub. If you want as ported sub, you'd want to go with the 4 cu.ft.

As an alternative, you could see if there is a local cabinet company that could cut wood to your specifications. Then again, from what I understand, the Rythmik's really are nice subwoofer cabinets although I've never had one personally as I purchased a DIY kit.
post #10409 of 15225
I honestly think I might buy two flat packs cut for the Dayton RS and two kits from Rythmik and throw them together. Seems like a huge savings while providing the same if not better outcome.

So a few more questions:

1) How do I put some feet(rubber preferably) on the bottom of one of the flat packs?

2) The amp itself does the bracing get in the way or does it not go that far into the box?

3) Any suggestions or links to info on how to finish the box?


An again a tremendous thank you to those of you who have provided a lot of useful feedback.
post #10410 of 15225
1. Take a look at Parts-Express for some feet. I know Amazon has some as well but Parts-Express would likely be more purpose built subwoofer feet with more feedback. Also, if you wanted a down-firing subwoofer, some have purchased wooden or aluminum furniture feet to lift the enclosure 3-4" off the floor but I'd still put some rubberized feet underneath to decouple the sub from the floor as much as possible.

2. The flat packs are designed for external amplification (not plate amps like Rythmik) and the bracing attaches to the outer walls of the flat packs. So you will need to do some modification. Do you have a jigsaw as that might be the easiest tool for the job?

3. Since it is Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF) it paints well or you could try your hand at veneering. Regarding painting, you will find most use primer before sanding and then painting with Duratex, a rubberized coating from the big box stores,or standard spray paint. For veneer, I'd recommend a paper backed version and use some contact cement. I'd finish the veneer with a gel stain or Solar-Lux stain (http://www.woodcraft.com/search2/search.aspx?query=solar%20lux%20stain) as they are easy to apply and work with. Then I would top coat that with a few costs (spray cans if Solar-Lux) of polyurethane. I'm a hobbyist woodworker so I could give you some advice on the veneering and finishing if you'd like.

David
Edited by dgage - 8/27/13 at 11:07pm
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