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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 353

post #10561 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Read "Subwoofer Distance Tweak Instructions" & "Subwoofer Distance Tweak Instructions & Examples" here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/5700#post_14456895
Audyssey cannot fix the dip at crossover point. We gotta do it manually by adjusting subwoofer distance/phase & verify it using software like REW.


Actually, I just verified yesterday that on my Denon 1713, Audyssey does in fact correct the phase on top of the distance setting. In fact, if I use the distance setting to correct for the phase, then with Audyssey back on, the dip re-appeared! I think I know how Audyssey works now, they correct amplitude and add delay on a per frequency basis to correct the phase chart. XT version on Denon 1713 corrects the phase all the way into the 1.5khz range according to REW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Coli---At what SPL did you get those frequency response and distortion readings?

I posted the chart, around 70db.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Works for you, great! Audyssey's filters may cover it, especially XT32 since there are so many more bass filters (I only have an older version with far fewer bass filters). From various threads, emails, and some personal experience, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. To be fair, most of the time it seems to work. Ditto for MCACC, though in my case my crossover is too low for it. I have not enough experience with YPAO (the other flavor of room correction in the house). Frankly, I'd expect XT32 to handle it most of the time; the most obvious problems I have seen are when a room mode is around the crossover frequency, then room correction may (try to) fix the room mode and mess up the sub/mains integration. That is when I have had to use manual intervention.

At 80 Hz a wavelength is about 1127 ft/sec / 80 Hz = 14 ft. Also note 1 / 1127 ft/sec is about 1 ms/ft, so it could take several ms of delay to impact things. And tweaking with distance is a little tricky, especially for narrow peaks/valleys since the resolution may not be that great (though newer models seem to tweak to an inch or less).

I got some charts with YPAO on a V473, and let's just say that Yamaha should be ashamed of themselves...
post #10562 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

I got some charts with YPAO on a V473, and let's just say that Yamaha should be ashamed of themselves...

The version found on that entry level receiver is lacking compared to that of the *30 Adventage series.
post #10563 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

The version found on that entry level receiver is lacking compared to that of the *30 Adventage series.

Possibly, but I got Audyssey MultEQ XT for $180 after tax!
post #10564 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

Possibly, but I got Audyssey MultEQ XT for $180 after tax!

Sounds like you got a good deal but it would be an unfair to comparison for the entry level Denon to the *30 Adventage series despite that Denon has Audyssey. The Denon is not even close in terms of performance and feature sets.
post #10565 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

The Denon is not even close in terms of performance and feature sets.
compare to Yamaha? If so, I would like to know what they are that is superior to Denon. Thanks.
post #10566 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

compare to Yamaha? If so, I would like to know what they are that is superior to Denon. Thanks.

I was talking specifc models..An entry level Denon verses the top tier Adventage series from Yamaha where their top models use the enhanced YPAO. Its not Denon vs Yamaha per say. Please don't read this thread out of context. This all I'm going to say about it as this thread is about Rythmic subs and not AVR. wink.gif
post #10567 of 15139
^^I see. I was just curious to know.
post #10568 of 15139
What settings did you guys use with your subs before and after audyssey calibration?
post #10569 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

Actually, I just verified yesterday that on my Denon 1713, Audyssey does in fact correct the phase on top of the distance setting. In fact, if I use the distance setting to correct for the phase, then with Audyssey back on, the dip re-appeared! I think I know how Audyssey works now, they correct amplitude and add delay on a per frequency basis to correct the phase chart. XT version on Denon 1713 corrects the phase all the way into the 1.5khz range according to REW.
I posted the chart, around 70db.
I got some charts with YPAO on a V473, and let's just say that Yamaha should be ashamed of themselves...
You have to switch on Audyssey...then do the distance adjustment.
post #10570 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottyp3 View Post

What settings did you guys use with your subs before and after audyssey calibration?
This is the setup procedure from Rythmik:

-Recommended room EQ setup procedure-

We recommend the following settings when using a Room EQ program:
One port configuration
Rumble filter: OFF/1
Extension filter: 14 Hz
Damping: low

RoomEQ has the capability to change the frequency response in the room. EQ can interfere with the damping settings as damping relates to the time domain performance. As a result, it is recommended to set up EQ with the maximum possible extension and the best damping for sound quality. After EQ has been set up, one can then adjust the rumble filter, bass extension and damping settings for the best compromise between output and sound quality.
post #10571 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

This is the setup procedure from Rythmik:

-Recommended room EQ setup procedure-

We recommend the following settings when using a Room EQ program:
One port configuration
Rumble filter: OFF/1
Extension filter: 14 Hz
Damping: low

RoomEQ has the capability to change the frequency response in the room. EQ can interfere with the damping settings as damping relates to the time domain performance. As a result, it is recommended to set up EQ with the maximum possible extension and the best damping for sound quality. After EQ has been set up, one can then adjust the rumble filter, bass extension and damping settings for the best compromise between output and sound quality.

Isn't the "best" damping high, not low?
post #10572 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

You have to switch on Audyssey...then do the distance adjustment.

Nope, with Audyssey on, there is no need for distance adjustment.
post #10573 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by coli View Post

Nope, with Audyssey on, there is no need for distance adjustment.
In your case, the phase adjustment by Audyssey is correct....but not everyone is as lucky as you are. Audyssey doesn't always hit the correct spot. Hence, some of us need to further tweak the distance after Audyssey. YMMV.
Edited by Skylinestar - 9/7/13 at 2:06am
post #10574 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Isn't the "best" damping high, not low?
Here's the answer from Brian:
Quote:
The best sound for music is 14hz/hi damping. High damping has less ringing and it has a much more gradual roll-off.

The setting for auto calibration is just temporary. Let us assume the software is capable of achieving same consistent calibrated response if the pre-calibration curves are well behaved. BTW, switch damping control does not introduce new peak or null, so it is reasonable to assume Audyssey will come back with very similar calibrated curves. If one set the extension to 28hz, the software may even boost the band between 20hz and 30hz. So the idea to present the low damping curve to calibration program. And then check the sound. If you think it is too boomy, then you can switch the damping back to high. If one had used high damping for calibration, then there is no "ultra" high damping setting to fall back to. If the sound is good, there is no need to make further damping adjustment.

For HT uses, we recommend 14hz/low damping or 20hz/low damping. The latter is for those who likes to play louder in HT. Only in music playback, we recommend something like 14hz high damping to get a better transient response.
post #10575 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

This is the setup procedure from Rythmik:

-Recommended room EQ setup procedure-

We recommend the following settings when using a Room EQ program:
One port configuration
Rumble filter: OFF/1
Extension filter: 14 Hz
Damping: low

RoomEQ has the capability to change the frequency response in the room. EQ can interfere with the damping settings as damping relates to the time domain performance. As a result, it is recommended to set up EQ with the maximum possible extension and the best damping for sound quality. After EQ has been set up, one can then adjust the rumble filter, bass extension and damping settings for the best compromise between output and sound quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Here's the answer from Brian:

The best sound for music is 14hz/hi damping. High damping has less ringing and it has a much more gradual roll-off.

The setting for auto calibration is just temporary. Let us assume the software is capable of achieving same consistent calibrated response if the pre-calibration curves are well behaved. BTW, switch damping control does not introduce new peak or null, so it is reasonable to assume Audyssey will come back with very similar calibrated curves. If one set the extension to 28hz, the software may even boost the band between 20hz and 30hz. So the idea to present the low damping curve to calibration program. And then check the sound. If you think it is too boomy, then you can switch the damping back to high. If one had used high damping for calibration, then there is no "ultra" high damping setting to fall back to. If the sound is good, there is no need to make further damping adjustment.

For HT uses, we recommend 14hz/low damping or 20hz/low damping. The latter is for those who likes to play louder in HT. Only in music playback, we recommend something like 14hz high damping to get a better transient response.

Yea, that's what I thought; high is the "better" setting. It was the original wording that caused me to scratch my head. The first post implied low was the best setting, based upon the two highlighted lines. That's just the setting when running the room EQ, not the one with the best SQ, which is where the confusion stemmed from.
post #10576 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post


At 80 Hz a wavelength is about 1127 ft/sec / 80 Hz = 14 ft. Also note 1 / 1127 ft/sec is about 1 ms/ft, so it could take several ms of delay to impact things.

Don, your 1127ft/sec sound speed is more accurate. In a lot of my calculation for the customers, I have been using 1 ft/ms to keep in simple. And that yields 1000ft/sec which is 10% short.
Quote:
And tweaking with distance is a little tricky, especially for narrow peaks/valleys since the resolution may not be that great (though newer models seem to tweak to an inch or less).

That is why I encourage customers to do at least one measurement of front speakers running full range without subwoofer. That way, we can easily see which crossover point is better than others. Try avoid the region with the largest room interaction.
post #10577 of 15139
can e15 compete with dd15+??
post #10578 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

In your case, the phase adjustment by Audyssey is correct....but not everyone is as lucky as you are. Audyssey doesn't always hit the correct spot. Hence, some of us need to further tweak the distance after Audyssey. YMMV.

The things is, if I change the distance, it actually undo the Audyssey correction, and the frequency gap showed up. What that means is if you have Audyssey on, you must not touch the distance. But if you have it off, then you have to change it.
post #10579 of 15139
^^^

I want to elaborate this a bit more. How does distance setting change phase alignment? Let us say the physical distance is X ft. Now if we want to add 180 degrees phase lead (to compensate excessive phase lag) at 100hz with 10ft wavelength, 10ms full cycle time, we need to trick AVR to apply the signal to the sub channel by 5ms early. That means we have to set the "fake" distance in AVR to X+5 ft so that AVR will do as we wish. In your case, Audyssey already fixed the phase alignment issue, so it is ok the leave the distance as is. All of above discussion is to illustrate how one can fix phase alignment with just hand calculation either when there is no auto EQ to do that for us, or when room EQ didn't do it correctly. Understand how it works is more worthy than getting it right once (and maybe next time will not be so lucky).

Now, how do you know if you got excessive phase lag when you get 180degrees phase inversion issue? If you have a ported front speakers, most likely you will run into excessive phase lag issue. Most bass management uses 12db/oct for front speakers and 24db/oct for subwoofer in a so-called Linkwitz-Riley alignment configuration. This arrangement is based on the assumption that front speakers are "sealed". if you have ported front speakers instead, you will have 90 degrees additional phase lead in the front speakers and that is same as the sub has 90 degrees extra phase lag.

Another thing I notice is you have used our PEQ to suppress the largest peak in your room. It will be interesting to see how Audyssey corrects that if you haven't done so.


-
Edited by Rythmik - 9/7/13 at 11:20am
post #10580 of 15139
Hi guys, I'm considering a Rythmik sub or two to replace my worn out Def Tech sub. It's nice to see that a Rythmik owner or rep is on this thread. I have a large open and acoustically unfriendly room, my fronts are Revel F52's with a JBL PC600 for a center and a pair of Pinnacle BD650's for surrounds. I'm currently 60% music 40% movies, so the sub(s) is/are playing double duty. I'm wondering if the F15 HP would be the right choice. I like that it's front firing, sealed and seems to have enough power. I don't like that the fact that I would have to pay extra for XLR inputs and spiked feet. Can someone explain servo a little better? And do they come with a grill?
As another option would the F25 be good for music as well as movies?
Thanks,
John.
Edited by comfynumb - 9/7/13 at 12:40pm
post #10581 of 15139
All the information about servo you could possibly want to know is already on Rythmik's website, so the best thing to do is poke around there and read whatever catches your fancy.

Regarding your music/movies question... the amp they use has a multitude of configuration options, enabling you to tailor the sound to your exact needs. That's actually one of Rythmik's biggest strengths; don't like the way the sub sounds out of the box? No problem, flip a couple of switchs, change a dial or two, and you can make it into whatever you'd like.
post #10582 of 15139
Yeah, the PEQ control on the sub is amazingly useful. Who would have thought... As for XLR, most sub out there don't even have XLR as an option!
post #10583 of 15139
I'll look into their page a little deeper. Would still like to hear from F15 HP and F25 owners. Spikes and XLR's would cost the manufacturer a minimal amount of money, so why not add it in for a few dollars more? Any serious sub should have XLR's they are just better for longer runs. I'm not saying it's a deal breaker just something I didn't like smile.gif
post #10584 of 15139
I think the F25 would be best for a Music first and HT second system. You get the qualities of a sealed subwoofer and the loudness for HT. Another option would be Dual F15HP for stereo subwoofers biggrin.gif
post #10585 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

I think the F25 would be best for a Music first and HT second system. You get the qualities of a sealed subwoofer and the loudness for HT. Another option would be Dual F15HP for stereo subwoofers biggrin.gif



I was thinking the F25 should have some pretty good output with it's dual 15's and for the price it looks really hard to beat. It would save me some money over two separate 15's, I just upgrade quite a bit of gear and I'm getting a larger panel soon, so money is important. I can always add another F25 early next year biggrin.gif Thanks for the reply
Edited by comfynumb - 9/7/13 at 4:20pm
post #10586 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'll look into their page a little deeper. Would still like to hear from F15 HP and F25 owners. Spikes and XLR's would cost the manufacturer a minimal amount of money, so why not add it in for a few dollars more? Any serious sub should have XLR's they are just better for longer runs. I'm not saying it's a deal breaker just something I didn't like smile.gif

We do everything for a reason. Grille is definitely there. I cannot imagine how I can ship a sub without grille to cover and protect the driver.

Spikes and XLR may be natural things to have when our subs are selling at 2x as what they are now. But we are not Velodyne, Paradigm, or Def Tech. We don't have the marketing power to enable us inflate the price to 2x. By the way, I talked to Sandy Gross (Def Tech) about our servo technology about 10 years ago, and he was out-right not interested at all. You can guess the reason. But that is ok, that is why I am here selling servo subwoofers today.

Now we don't inlcude cables because each customer needs a different length and they have a different budget for the cables they want. I have a lot of RCA cables from AVR and DVD players. For me, they are in my storage drawers that I will never put in my sytem. The only time I may use them is as backup cable for me test equipments.

As for spikes, all of our subs come with thread-on rubber feet (except Coli who bought our first batch of enlosures from almost 5 years ago). If customers need spikes, I really think that is a luxury for appearance. Again, we can spend x dollar amount on spikes that customers may not use at all. For instance, we will never recommend spikes on hard surface as they just make it easier to rattle. Putting spikes on carpet has minimal sound improvement because our subs like F12/F15HP/FV15HP are really heavy and they are stable directly on carpet. But cable and spikes are not really free. They are factored into the price of merchandize. Essentially we are forcing customers to pay for things that they don't need.

Lastly a story that may make your laugh. Carpet installers at the height of real estate boom was the one made a lot of money. For each existing home sold on the market they can do up to two business. The seller put in the least expensive carpet to make tthe house look new. The buyer after they bought the house thinks the carpet is too cheap and then spend money again to put in new carpet. We don't really need to do that here.
post #10587 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

We do everything for a reason. Grille is definitely there. I cannot imagine how I can ship a sub without grille to cover and protect the driver.

Spikes and XLR may be natural things to have when our subs are selling at 2x as what they are now. But we are not Velodyne, Paradigm, or Def Tech. We don't have the marketing power to enable us inflate the price to 2x. By the way, I talked to Sandy Gross (Def Tech) about our servo technology about 10 years ago, and he was out-right not interested at all. You can guess the reason. But that is ok, that is why I am here selling servo subwoofers today.

Now we don't inlcude cables because each customer needs a different length and they have a different budget for the cables they want. I have a lot of RCA cables from AVR and DVD players. For me, they are in my storage drawers that I will never put in my sytem. The only time I may use them is as backup cable for me test equipments.

As for spikes, all of our subs come with thread-on rubber feet (except Coli who bought our first batch of enlosures from almost 5 years ago). If customers need spikes, I really think that is a luxury for appearance. Again, we can spend x dollar amount on spikes that customers may not use at all. For instance, we will never recommend spikes on hard surface as they just make it easier to rattle. Putting spikes on carpet has minimal sound improvement because our subs like F12/F15HP/FV15HP are really heavy and they are stable directly on carpet. But cable and spikes are not really free. They are factored into the price of merchandize. Essentially we are forcing customers to pay for things that they don't need.

Lastly a story that may make your laugh. Carpet installers at the height of real estate boom was the one made a lot of money. For each existing home sold on the market they can do up to two business. The seller put in the least expensive carpet to make tthe house look new. The buyer after they bought the house thinks the carpet is too cheap and then spend money again to put in new carpet. We don't really need to do that here.



Hi, explaining things like you did makes sense to me. Now to the good part, is the F25 good for both music and movies? My current sub is a Def Tech supercube 1 but it's getting drowned out by my other speakers and I've pushed it too hard. Thanks.
Edited by comfynumb - 9/7/13 at 4:41pm
post #10588 of 15139
I hate you. I can afford and have space for one F15 biggrin.gif
I use my F15 for 2 channel HT and its wicked. I guess the F15HP/F25, being also sealed would deliver the same goodness but would privide more more more output

Brian recommends that the FV15HP for the HT duty and the sealed for HT and Music duties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I can always add another F25 early next year biggrin.gif Thanks for the reply

Edited by qguy - 9/7/13 at 5:41pm
post #10589 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

I hate you. I can afford and have space for one F15 biggrin.gif



Lol, I'm sure your setup sounds great. In a smaller space you won't need the gear some need to fill a bigger room with sound smile.gif
Edited by comfynumb - 9/7/13 at 5:07pm
post #10590 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

As for spikes, all of our subs come with thread-on rubber feet (except Coli who bought our first batch of enlosures from almost 5 years ago).
I have bought 2 FV15HPs....none of them come bundled with free rubber feet.
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