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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 369

post #11041 of 15162
Hello,

I recently ordered a LV12R and have a question.

My current sub is over 13 years old and I am using Left and Right jacks using a Y connector.

Looking at the Quick Guide I see that I can plug in the same way that I do now or just drop the Y connector and go direct to the LFE jack. So my question is what is the difference between using the L/R inputs and the LFE input? I will be using a Denon x2000.

Thanks
Edited by Jeones - 10/19/13 at 11:07pm
post #11042 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjodotcom View Post

Thanks for the quick response. Everything does seem to be functioning ok, though I am getting a little sawtooth audio response from the sub in the lower 20hz range which I don't remember seeing before (total variation of like +/- 3.5db).

Any thoughts on what could have transpired? Like I said all I did was plug the wires back in and turn the sub and receiver on - nothing was playing.

It is hard to say what had happened. I recommend to put the power slide switch on our amp to "OFF" when plug in the power and then slide it to "AUTO" or "ON" when the source is ready. The loudest thump noise occurs when the power cord loses contact (or power) from a fraction of a second, up to one second. What happens is, during the short period of time when the amp loses power, some part of the circuit discharge faster than the other parts. When the power is returned, some part reaches "ON" state sooner than what they are supposed to. In an audio system with multiple preamp and power components, there is also a "so-called" power sequence to avoid getting noise when the system powers on as some amp may leak small output signal at the moment of powered on. When we test the amp for power on noise, it is tested based the assumption the plate amp is powered off at least 2 seconds and then power on again (with no input signal). Our recommendation is power on the plate amp with "red" light and not playing anything from the source. If the source does start playing even before you power on the subwoofer, you may hear loud pop noise when the light turn from red to green (even though it is rare that this happens, that is, it may not be repeatable).

I will check by plugging in the power cord with the above sequence again and check if you see red light (instead of green light) and if you hear the loud thump/pop noise again (with the source already power on). If it does happen again, then it is NOT normal.
post #11043 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Well gents, after two hours of just doing Quick Measure, I figured it out!
I have two rows of 3 seats and the subwoofer is in the left front corner. Using Quick Measure at every seat, I found that each seat on the right side of the room had SEVERE nulls from 60Hz and up (basically, after 60Hz it looked like a sheer cliff drop-off). The middle and left seats had pretty normal small peaks/nulls.

When I run ARC, I normally use my boom mic stand to place the microphone in the middle of each seat at ear height, so I have six total measurements. Here is the ARC results of using my normal six measurement spots showing I still have bad nulls from 60Hz on up causing ARC to use 80Hz for the LFE LPF setting (hence the roll-off before 80Hz on the graph):


Here is the same graph with me manually setting the LFE LPF to 120Hz (causing the roll-off not to happen until 100Hz, like it was with my Sub 25 in this room):



Now, here is where the hours of Quick Measure paid off. The following graph is using new measurement spots (front row middle seat, front row between left and middle seat, front row between right and middle seat, back row between left and middle seat, and back row between right and middle seat):


Now, as you can see, ARC still set the LFE LPF to 80Hz (as the 80Hz setting had a near perfect Flat response curve), so I cheated a little more and manually set it to 120Hz and here is the final result (the curve isn't as Flat as the 80Hz setting, but it is dang close):



Using the new mic placement and changing the LPF LFE setting to 120Hz manually, my MLP (middle seat, front row) and secondary MLP (middle seat, back row) sounds better than it did with the Sub 25. Nothing is missing from my normal reference scenes, instead there is more detail in the mid-LFE range and the room is more pressurized in the ultrasonic range (sub-20Hz). I'm using 14Hz/Low on the F25 Amp.

The other big plus is that while experimenting with Quick Measure I found that when the F25 is placed in the right front corner the major 60-70Hz null is mainly present on the two left side seats of the room, whereas when the sub is in the left front corner the null is mainly present on the two right side seats of the room. This makes me feel that getting a second F25 and placing it in the right front corner SHOULD knock out this major 60-70Hz null across all seats (along with raise total output/SPL levels) and voila! Time will tell obviously.

So excited!

You are using the LPF setting for LFE a lot. If it is crossover setting for redirected bass between the sub and the mains; then it's OK. If it is the actual LPF for LFE; it should be left at 120Hz.
post #11044 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

You are using the LPF setting for LFE a lot. If it is crossover setting for redirected bass between the sub and the mains; then it's OK. If it is the actual LPF for LFE; it should be left at 120Hz.

The crossovers between the mains and subwoofer were set at 60Hz.

The LFE LPF was initially set at 80Hz by ARC (as that allowed ARC to calculate an almost perfect flat response curve) but I manually changed the LFE LPF to 120Hz, which sacrificed the original calculated flat response in order to roll-off at the higher frequency. That's the difference graphs three and four are showing.
post #11045 of 15162
Quote:
The LFE LPF was initially set at 80Hz by ARC (as that allowed ARC to calculate an almost perfect flat response curve) but I manually changed the LFE LPF to 120Hz,

I don't know how anthem calibrates the system, but Audyssey and YPAO don't set LPF for LFE. They only suggest the crossover between the speakers and sub(s) during auto calibration. Low Frequency Effects are different from redirected bass, which goes to subwoofer only. If a subwoofer is not used; mains are defaulted to Large and only in this case does the LFE get routed to mains.

LFE (the .1 channel) is played back 10dB louder than any of the speakers and redirected bass and is mixed from 120Hz and below, so, it is best to leave it at 120Hz.
post #11046 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I don't know how anthem calibrates the system, but Audyssey and YPAO don't set LPF for LFE. They only suggest the crossover between the speakers and sub(s) during auto calibration. Low Frequency Effects are different from redirected bass, which goes to subwoofer only. If a subwoofer is not used; mains are defaulted to Large and only in this case does the LFE get routed to mains.

LFE (the .1 channel) is played back 10dB louder than any of the speakers and redirected bass and is mixed from 120Hz and below, so, it is best to leave it at 120Hz.

I understand all of that. Unlike Audyssey and YAPO, ARC determines the LFE LPF setting based off of the cumulative frequency response results. In my case, ARC is able to calculate a completely Flat response curve for the Subwoofer when the LFE LPF is set to 80Hz, hence why it was automatically set to that (shown in Graph #3 of my post).
Also, unlike Audyssey and YAPO, ARC allows the user to see the response curve if one where to change the LFE LPF setting. As Graph #4 shows in my post, my changing the LFE LPF to 120Hz (the standard recommended for movie playback for the reasons you stated) caused the response curve to become less flat (varying only by +/- 1dB), but is a worthy trade-off to have the 120Hz extension.

Just took me a few hours of measurements and placement options to figure all of this out. Should be good to go.
post #11047 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeones View Post

Hello,

I recently ordered a LV12R and have a question.

My current sub is over 13 years old and I am using Left and Right jacks using a Y connector.

Looking at the Quick Guide I see that I can plug in the same way that I do now or just drop the Y connector and go direct to the LFE jack. So my question is what is the difference between using the L/R inputs and the LFE input? I will be using a Denon x2000.

Thanks

First, you don't need Y splitter. You can plug in one RCA. As for the sound difference between line-in and LFE in, there is minor difference and have to try both to determine which is better for your setup. LFE has wider bandwidth, but it also invites more noise. All ported subs has a bit of port resonance around 200hz. That is where the trade-off between line-in and LFE-in comes into play. For sealed subs, it is similar, but for a different reason.
post #11048 of 15162
So, Ive been bouncing back and forth on what sub to replace (upgrade) my aging dual Hsu 12's. I finally bit the bullet on an FV-15HP, and received it last week. I'll keep this short and sweet.

The fun started when the UPS driver wasnt driving his own truck and didnt have the key to unlock the dolly, so we carried it around the back into the living room. This thing is not light lol. The piano black finish is GORGEOUS. I love they include little white cotton gloves with it as to not mark it up with fingerprints! I set it up according to the recommended setting for HT.

First test was some electronic tracks made specifically for bass testing (I love you bass is one of the 12 tracks). At first blush, output seemed ~about~ the same as my dual 12's, but...much, much cleaner. MUCH more extension as was to be expected. Next, a few select tracks from all the known movies (Hulk, U-571, Cloverfield, a few others)

uh

Holy ****. This sub kicks ass!

All in all I spent the better part of Saturday and Sunday listening to all kinds of music, and watched 3-4 movies overall. I am absolutely stunned how musical this sub is! I listened to electronic, ZZ Top, Eric Clapton, Marilyn Manson, KMFDM, Pink Floyd, Sarah McLachlen, Five Finger Deathpunch, U2, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff. I am absolutely stunned. This sub is so accurate. So tight. Soooo smooth. I now understand what it means when Brian has said the only time you should notice your sub is when its not there. Simply amazing. I was wondering if one was gonna be enough, and sure enough...it is.

Bravo Brian, bravo.

In case anyone is interested, my room is (total) 14Wx44Lx9H (only 1/3 of that is the actual theater area, rest is dining and kitchen)
Pioneer VSX52 receiver
Emotiva UPA-2 for fronts
Polk RTi10 fronts
Polk CS20 center
Polk FXi A6 surrounds
post #11049 of 15162
Nice review. Congrats on the new sub!
post #11050 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

So, Ive been bouncing back and forth on what sub to replace (upgrade) my aging dual Hsu 12's. I finally bit the bullet on an FV-15HP, and received it last week. I'll keep this short and sweet.

The fun started when the UPS driver wasnt driving his own truck and didnt have the key to unlock the dolly, so we carried it around the back into the living room. This thing is not light lol. The piano black finish is GORGEOUS. I love they include little white cotton gloves with it as to not mark it up with fingerprints! I set it up according to the recommended setting for HT.

First test was some electronic tracks made specifically for bass testing (I love you bass is one of the 12 tracks). At first blush, output seemed ~about~ the same as my dual 12's, but...much, much cleaner. MUCH more extension as was to be expected. Next, a few select tracks from all the known movies (Hulk, U-571, Cloverfield, a few others)

uh

Holy ****. This sub kicks ass!

All in all I spent the better part of Saturday and Sunday listening to all kinds of music, and watched 3-4 movies overall. I am absolutely stunned how musical this sub is! I listened to electronic, ZZ Top, Eric Clapton, Marilyn Manson, KMFDM, Pink Floyd, Sarah McLachlen, Five Finger Deathpunch, U2, Aerosmith, all kinds of stuff. I am absolutely stunned. This sub is so accurate. So tight. Soooo smooth. I now understand what it means when Brian has said the only time you should notice your sub is when its not there. Simply amazing. I was wondering if one was gonna be enough, and sure enough...it is.

Bravo Brian, bravo.

In case anyone is interested, my room is (total) 14Wx44Lx9H (only 1/3 of that is the actual theater area, rest is dining and kitchen)
Pioneer VSX52 receiver
Emotiva UPA-2 for fronts
Polk RTi10 fronts
Polk CS20 center
Polk FXi A6 surrounds

How can I not pull the trigger on a Rythmik Sub after this review!!

I'm currently a junior in the sub department and have 2 Klipsch Rpw-10's, I tried to sell my wife on getting rid of the 2 klipsch subs and down sizing to 1 Rythmik sub (lol), but she didn't buy it. She asked me why do we need a new larger sub, and after trying to explain all the different reasons, she continued to look at me with a blank stare. Not sure how you guys have such understanding wives!

By the way I'm looking at either the FV15HP or an F25, can't decide.
post #11051 of 15162
That's easy. More movies than music? FV15HP. Visa versa? F25.
post #11052 of 15162
So has FV15HP been delayed now until mid November?
post #11053 of 15162
^^^

That is correct. The new ETA is Nov 15.
post #11054 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlozy View Post

How can I not pull the trigger on a Rythmik Sub after this review!!

I'm currently a junior in the sub department and have 2 Klipsch Rpw-10's, I tried to sell my wife on getting rid of the 2 klipsch subs and down sizing to 1 Rythmik sub (lol), but she didn't buy it. She asked me why do we need a new larger sub, and after trying to explain all the different reasons, she continued to look at me with a blank stare. Not sure how you guys have such understanding wives!

By the way I'm looking at either the FV15HP or an F25, can't decide.

Not all of us have understanding wives in this department, but some of us are willing to sleep on the couch. My wife thinks the tv speakers are sufficient and that standard definition tv looks the same as high def.....
Edited by JT78681 - 10/22/13 at 6:10am
post #11055 of 15162
Im very lucky as my wife pretty much lets me do what I want in the theater dept. Some of my upgrades she sees/hears (read: personally benefits from) some she does not. But thankfully she just rolls her eyes and says "ok whatever" lol.
post #11056 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

^^^

That is correct. The new ETA is Nov 15.

Wow so another month till i get dual fv15hps. That sucks.. I would just order in piano black as it looks much nicer anyway, but wow the price tag is way to high imo. I mean sierra towers are only 100 bucks more for piano black and its a whole lot more surface area then the fv15hp.

Maybe if ya cut me a deal on piano black because I'm buying duals and having to wait 2 months for them.. wink.gif




Worth a try....... lol tongue.gif
post #11057 of 15162
I made a thread about this but it got slightly side-tracked. I have only had my F25 for less than a week and I already want more of them. At the minimum I am ordering a second F25 at the beginning of November.....but I have the ability to strech my purchase to add a maximum of three F25's to this next order, bringing my total to (4) F25's in my room when all is said and done. The room is 20x14x8, with two rows of three seats. All movie use only. Loud movies (from reference to -5dB below reference).

Obviously the first thing I learned in this hobby long ago was make sure it is worth it to spend money. Whenever I have extra money I make a list of things I can do with it and why to eliminate possibilities. Most of the time I opt to put money into savings or payoff the occassional credit card bill. This extra money I am getting, however, is literally just that: exra money that was never factored into my monthy income/expense tracking.

Breaking down the list of things I could think of that have been on my mind for some time were:
- Remote Car Starter, but I realized I am not THAT lazy yet and can just turn the car on 5 minutes before leaving manually
- Upgrading my Klipsch RF-82 II's to RF-7 II's, but I am pretty sure that the advantage gained from this for HT (no music) is minimal compared to adding more subs
- Adding up to three more F25's all at once to bring the total in my room to (4)

So, my question is, other than just saying yes for the sake of saying yes because I have the ability to have four total in my room, should I go this route? Should I scale back to only ordering one more for a total of two? Or a total of three? Am I crazy? Should I see my doctor?

Just curious for Rythmik owner input. My other thread has turned into more theoretical and setup talk (which I enjoy so no complaints), so I thought this would be a good place to talk this out.
Thanks.
Edited by BigCoolJesus - 10/22/13 at 3:57pm
post #11058 of 15162
Would there be space left for in the room with four F25 smile.gif
Seriously, if your listening at ref level with one F25 and it does not clip or anything, the only reason to add another F25 is to go beyond Ref level or to smooth out the response across the room.
One more reason to add F25 aside from the NEED to add one is I WANT TO ADD MORE and nobody can argue against that smile.gif I wished I had your problem smile.gif
Have fun
post #11059 of 15162
Based on the response you were getting in the various placements you tried, I think one more on the opposite side of the room is all you will need. Save that extra money for something else. If you determine you need more output or need another to smooth the response more, you can always get it later, but I'll guarantee after two of those you are going to face severe diminishing returns. (keep in mind two of your subs = 4 drivers, or what most of us mortals would need 4 subs to do) Your room response is pretty straight forward and balanced, so be glad you aren't facing the problems many of us with open concept rooms have that require more than two.
post #11060 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Based on the response you were getting in the various placements you tried, I think one more on the opposite side of the room is all you will need. Save that extra money for something else. If you determine you need more output or need another to smooth the response more, you can always get it later, but I'll guarantee after two of those you are going to face severe diminishing returns. (keep in mind two of your subs = 4 drivers, or what most of us mortals would need 4 subs to do) Your room response is pretty straight forward and balanced, so be glad you aren't facing the problems many of us with open concept rooms have that require more than two.

That put it into words what my mind (and wallet) appreciate greatly.

What I will ask, though, is can you 100% clarify what you mean by "opposite" side of the room? If the sub is in the front left corner, would you recommend the front right (opposite side of the front wall), back left corner (opposite side of the side left wall) or back right corner (opposite corner across the room)?

Thanks!
post #11061 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Based on the response you were getting in the various placements you tried, I think one more on the opposite side of the room is all you will need. Save that extra money for something else. If you determine you need more output or need another to smooth the response more, you can always get it later, but I'll guarantee after two of those you are going to face severe diminishing returns. (keep in mind two of your subs = 4 drivers, or what most of us mortals would need 4 subs to do) Your room response is pretty straight forward and balanced, so be glad you aren't facing the problems many of us with open concept rooms have that require more than two.

Even tho the F25 has dual drivers the room sees it as one subwoofer. It is not severe diminishing returns adding a 3rd or 4th sub. 4 subs can effectively smooth all room modes across the room which is very important for a multi seat theatre room....I wouldnt want to get stuck in the seat thats -8db down from the other seats, that would flat out suck. I do agree that his response is pretty good and 2 F25's properly placed may be enough, but only he can determine that by taking measurments from each seat.
post #11062 of 15162
If I remember your curves correctly, when you placed it on each side of the front of the room you got almost an identical response in mirror image. IN THEORY then, if you placed the second on the opposite side of the front, it should make a very even and consistently flat response for both sides of the room. In practice though, who knows. That is where I would start, though...assuming I'm not confusing the graphs from your original placements.
post #11063 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I made a thread about this but it got slightly side-tracked. I have only had my F25 for less than a week and I already want more of them. At the minimum I am ordering a second F25 at the beginning of November.....but I have the ability to strech my purchase to add a maximum of three F25's to this next order, bringing my total to (4) F25's in my room when all is said and done. The room is 2-x14x8, with two rows of three seats. All movie use only. Loud movies (from reference to -5dB below reference).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Based on the response you were getting in the various placements you tried, I think one more on the opposite side of the room is all you will need. Save that extra money for something else. If you determine you need more output or need another to smooth the response more, you can always get it later, but I'll guarantee after two of those you are going to face severe diminishing returns. (keep in mind two of your subs = 4 drivers, or what most of us mortals would need 4 subs to do) Your room response is pretty straight forward and balanced, so be glad you aren't facing the problems many of us with open concept rooms have that require more than two.

+1

Not sure what the - in "2-x14x8" equates to, but even if it's a 9 that means your room is about 3200 ft^3. Dual F25's should be able to pulverize kidney stones in a space that size, and even at reference there will be plenty of headroom for whatever dynamic swings a soundtrack has. It's hard to imagine you needing more than a pair of those.
post #11064 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Even tho the F25 has dual drivers the room sees it as one subwoofer. It is not severe diminishing returns adding a 3rd or 4th sub. 4 subs can effectively smooth all room modes across the room which is very important for a multi seat theatre room....I wouldnt want to get stuck in the seat thats -8db down from the other seats, that would flat out suck. I do agree that his response is pretty good and 2 F25's properly placed may be enough, but only he can determine that by taking measurments from each seat.
Yes, that is true for most of us, but his original charts showed a mirror image response that was very even when he switched sides of the room for placement...that is why in this particular case I think more than 2 won't help much. Plus, if I'm wrong it is easy to add another. If he buys 4 now and I'm right, he just spent a whole lot of cash he didn't need to spend. By the way, you are preaching to the choir on the benefit in some rooms. I have 4 subs in mine.
post #11065 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Yes, that is true for most of us, but his original charts showed a mirror image response that was very even when he switched sides of the room for placement...that is why in this particular case I think more than 2 won't help much. Plus, if I'm wrong it is easy to add another. If he buys 4 now and I'm right, he just spent a whole lot of cash he didn't need to spend.

I was agreeing that he should add a second and go from there. smile.gif
post #11066 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post


+1

Not sure what the - in "2-x14x8" equates to, but even if it's a 9 that means your room is about 3200 ft^3. Dual F25's should be able to pulverize kidney stones in a space that size, and even at reference there should be plenty of headroom for whatever dynamic swings a soundtrack has. It's hard to imagine you needing more than a pair of those.

20x14x8...it was a typo I believe.
post #11067 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I was agreeing that he should add a second and go from there. smile.gif

Which is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do, of course. As you already know, I leave no stone unturned when asking questions and looking at all scenarios.
post #11068 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile2k View Post

Yes, that is true for most of us, but his original charts showed a mirror image response that was very even when he switched sides of the room for placement...that is why in this particular case I think more than 2 won't help much. Plus, if I'm wrong it is easy to add another. If he buys 4 now and I'm right, he just spent a whole lot of cash he didn't need to spend. By the way, you are preaching to the choir on the benefit in some rooms. I have 4 subs in mine.

That is true about my charts. Using ARC's quick measure utility, I found that with the subwoofer in the front left corner, the middle to left side of the room had great FR among each seat (4 out of 6 seats). And when the subwoofer was in the front right corner, the middle to right side of the room had great FR among each seat (4 out of 6). IN THEORY, it would seem that starting with two subwoofers in the front of the room in each corner would give a very good FR among all seats.

My fooling around with the REW Room Sim program disagrees with this, but that's not anywhere near real-world results as I have been told.

The only spots I did not measure in my room are the back left and right corners, as at this time I do not have the length of subwoofer cable(s) necessary to do this (re-wiring in my theater room is possible but very time consuming so I would need to buy a cheap 50ft cable from Monoprice to try the back corners).
post #11069 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

20x14x8...it was a typo I believe.

Yea, that's kinda what I was thinking too (the - key is close to the 0 key). That being the case the room is 2240 ft^3, which means you can forget about my comment saying dual F25's should pulverize kidney stones; a pair of them might pulverize his kidneys!
post #11070 of 15162
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Not all of us have understanding wives in this department, but some of us are willing to sleep on the couch. My wife thinks the tv speakers are sufficient and that standard definition tv looks the same as high def.....

Lol, sounds really familiar! She mentioned that I should quit visiting this website, something about me getting bad ideas or something, not sure quit listening.
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