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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 401

post #12001 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Use a RCA > XLR converter?

Somebody else will have to post how it all works.
I think this will work and give you sound, but not the benefit of a balanced signal. These okay to use when you have to - one side only has RCA but the other side only has XLR. If you don't have to use one, it will just run the signal through the extra balanced circuit with no benefit.

Aside from helping to deal with noise and ground loops, I disagree that XLR is more "pure." Pro gear has it to help deal with noise and ground loops. It is used for short cables to have a consistent standard, and because the gear doesn't know whether you will use a short or long cable in your application.

In home gear, XLR is rarely necessary, but it is often a sign that equipment is using higher quality components. I have heard occasional gear where the XLR connection sounded better than the RCA connection, but that's due to quirks about that particular gear, not an inherent advantage of XLR. Getting audible noise or hum from amps does suck when it happens. If you aren't getting audible noise or hum, you aren't missing out on anything, though.
post #12002 of 15139
Braveheart,

Thanks for the link to the adapter. I understand that the RCA receiver output is unbalanced and that the referenced adapter can't change that.

I will have a 25 ft run and Rythmik suggests using an XLR input type of sub amp for that.

My assumption is that I just don't understand how to do it??? Is it then typical just to use a high quality RCA cable for long runs from HT Receivers to subs?

Thanks
post #12003 of 15139
question for the pros:

Ive got a single FV15HP and its WONDERFUL. However, Im occasionally getting a bit of port noice. I currently have one port closed, and was wondering what difference it would make keeping everything set the same and pulling out the plug and running 2 ports open?

Currently running the recommended settings:
1.Input: LFE (higher bandwidth) or LINE-IN
2.PEQ:OFF
3.Gain:0db
4.Bandwidth:middle position
5.Frequency:middle position (40 Hz)
6.Delay/phase:0
7.Crossover:max
8.Volume:middle position (12 o’clock)
9.LOWPASS filter:AVR/12
10.Rumble filter:OFF/1 for one port
11.Extension filter:14 Hz low damping

Im guessing I would need to switch the rumble filter to ON/2, but how much if any extension would I lose? Any thoughts?
post #12004 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Iv never heard low bass like theese subs can produce! Miles from what the lv12r could dream of!

Hey now some of us are still loving their dual LVR12's wink.gif
post #12005 of 15139
Whoa

I was thinking of getting a LV12R,

Now I have to rethink it all again.

Decisions decisions.

newc33-What size room do you have

Shawn
post #12006 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Iv never heard low bass like theese subs can produce! Miles from what the lv12r could dream of!
post #12007 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

question for the pros:

Ive got a single FV15HP and its WONDERFUL. However, Im occasionally getting a bit of port noice. I currently have one port closed, and was wondering what difference it would make keeping everything set the same and pulling out the plug and running 2 ports open?

Data-Bass dot com says.....

If going to two ports, you lose some depth of extension. The alternative, if the budget can swing it, would be to add a second FV15HP.
post #12008 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

question for the pros:

Ive got a single FV15HP and its WONDERFUL. However, Im occasionally getting a bit of port noice. I currently have one port closed, and was wondering what difference it would make keeping everything set the same and pulling out the plug and running 2 ports open?

Currently running the recommended settings:
1.Input: LFE (higher bandwidth) or LINE-IN
2.PEQ:OFF
3.Gain:0db
4.Bandwidth:middle position
5.Frequency:middle position (40 Hz)
6.Delay/phase:0
7.Crossover:max
8.Volume:middle position (12 o’clock)
9.LOWPASS filter:AVR/12
10.Rumble filter:OFF/1 for one port
11.Extension filter:14 Hz low damping

Im guessing I would need to switch the rumble filter to ON/2, but how much if any extension would I lose? Any thoughts?

Do you have limiter ON (the power slide switch at the middle position)? The limiter will prevent the amp from clipping. [EDIT] Without the limiter, the amplifier can be pushed into clipping and therefore subwoofer can produce more port noise.

Second, do you have roomEQ? If roomEQ also boost signals below 20hz, it can make port noise more audible. Switching to 2 port mode will make port noise less audible. You have to try it to see if you can hear the difference.

Third, do you use "True-HD"? I found myself also bitten by this bug. I have a Denon AVR. I recently bought Sony Blueray player and it enables True-HD by default and LFE effect is just too overwhelming (even a dance mix at club scene will make the house shake like earthquake). However, if I ask the player to mix it first and then output to Denon AVR, the bass is more natural (just like what I had with previous players, in Dolby digital mode though) and Denon AVR shows the input source is "multi-channel inputs". I had both Samsung and LG before, and their default output mode is Dolby digital and I never had this problem. I guess they fix in into Dobly digital before sending it to my Denon AVR. This is the same problem we found with Woody777 that his FV15HP can hear the port noise so much easier and I went to his house and notitced the bass really sounded over-emphasized. The THX "life" demo track sounded very unnatural. We cannot figure out why. What is worse is Audyssey won't able to fix this type of problem because the problem is in the codec. After I left, Woody777 put the LFE trim as -10db for "True-HD" audio modes, everything sounded more natural. Note that is LFE trim is not same as subwoofer trim. This LFE trim is to tell AVR how .1 LFE signal strength relative to other channels should be interpreted.

-
Edited by Rythmik - 12/1/13 at 11:38am
post #12009 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I am not sure what you mean by "pure". If both ends (and the cable) are fully differential then you gain common-mode rejection and potentially lower even-order distortion (not all XLR I/O circuits are fully differential; some are quasi-differential, even on pro equipment). Differential circuits tend to be noisier, however, and distortion is so low that going from inaudible to more inaudible may not buy much.

FWIWFM, in the high-speed large-signal world of GHz and up circuits that I play in for my day job, everything is differential. Except when doing pro sound, XLR is not a factor for me in choosing my audio gear.

These aren't Ghz signal paths though, so I'm not certain high-speed requirements apply to subwoofers.

Sorry, I was not clear. I was trying to make the point that differential circuits are a requirement for RF, not so much for audio. We are saying the same thing.
Quote:
I wasn't really sure what word to use when I posted that, which is why I quoted 'pure' in the first place. It seemed endemic, but not as descriptive as I would have liked. The crux of what I was attempting to convey is that XLR is not just for long cable runs; it's also for better signal quality. Is the difference audible? Who knows. Regardless, I suspect there's a reason all studio monitors have XLR inputs, and it's probably due more to the need to have pure signal paths than anything else. Studios rarely have exceedingly long cable runs, so that's more than likely not the overriding concern.

"Pure" is as good as any, I just don't think it's true, at least IME. I could be wrong, happens at least once an hour (more often when talking to my kids and wife smile.gif ). Except for some piddling now and then, my pro audio work (live and studio) is years ago, but again IME we used XLR because of noise rejection, not because the signal had lower distortion. Pro gear generally has more headroom but that has nothing to do with the XLR, except that for a given supply rail you can get twice the (differential) voltage swing (and rt(2) more noise, natch). Studio runs are not as long but with all that gear it's a noisy environment and ground loops are endemic so XLR makes sense. A lot of studio gear (and a lot of live gear, for that matter) includes a switch to lift the ground on one end of the XLR to reduce ground coupling. And, you do get that factor of two increase in signal for the same supply, a benefit when lots of headroom is needed. It does not necessarily improve distortion or noise floor, however. There are two many variables for me to say one or the other is better. I have had good and bad examples of each (balanced and unbalanced equipment).

All IME, IMO, etc. And as usual there are always cases in the home where XLR makes sense, and there are plenty of consumer components that have XLR outputs as well. - Don
post #12010 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGBMAN View Post

Whoa

I was thinking of getting a LV12R,

Now I have to rethink it all again.

Decisions decisions.

newc33-What size room do you have

Shawn

If I remember correctly my room is 14x19x9

I have posted something a little diffrent than that elswhere on accident but I'm pretty sure the above quote is correct.
post #12011 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Hey now some of us are still loving their dual LVR12's wink.gif

Lol that's funny! I actually still love mine as well!

I talked to brian about adding it to the fv15hp but overall it would be very hard and take a lot of time and it might never work exactly how I'd like so I
Have chosen to stick with the dual fv15hps and not add lv12r.

So its just sitting not even being used right now. I could sell it but I'm kinda attached to it lol so idk.
It really is an amazing sub for the 500 dollar range! I was most impressed with its lows and accuracy I'd say and output as well
post #12012 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post



All IME, IMO, etc. And as usual there are always cases in the home where XLR makes sense, and there are plenty of consumer components that have XLR outputs as well. - Don

One thing on this XLR vs single ended debate is high frequency transimission requires impedance matching. Differential signals are all low impedance. For instance, when I designed the XLR amps, I have problem determining the proper input impedance. If I make it too low (like most other equipments), then the current draw from the source will introduce distortion and other sonic degradation. In comparison, single end input often has impedance of 30kohm or above which draws very little current. XLR often has 2kohm input impedance, which draws a lot more current. We designed ours to 10kohms. In XLR, I cannot really make them as high as 30kohms or the noise level will increase.
post #12013 of 15139
Thanks to all who answered my question on the other options. I am sure the normal package would work fine for me at the moment.
post #12014 of 15139
In all honesty I prolly would have been really happy with dual lv12rs in my room. However I really wanted to take it to the next level
And go overboard! I'm more than happy with the fv15hps! I love the idea of having tons of headroom and gobs of low end output.
I can FEEL a lot more with the fv15hp. Like in the movie pacific rim. When the robots and monsters walked I heard the loud boom and
A decent amount of pressure from the lv12r. When I turned it up or ran the sub hot it was just enough to make my couch rattle a little.

When in watch it with the 15s even at medium volumes I really FEEL the footsteps I feel the preassure and so does my whole room when I
Crank it up it it litterally sounds like a giant robot is walking outside my house! I mean literally
post #12015 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

In all honesty I prolly would have been really happy with dual lv12rs in my room. However I really wanted to take it to the next level
And go overboard! I'm more than happy with the fv15hps! I love the idea of having tons of headroom and gobs of low end output.
I can FEEL a lot more with the fv15hp. Like in the movie pacific rim. When the robots and monsters walked I heard the loud boom and
A decent amount of pressure from the lv12r. When I turned it up or ran the sub hot it was just enough to make my couch rattle a little.

When in watch it with the 15s even at medium volumes I really FEEL the footsteps I feel the preassure and so does my whole room when I
Crank it up it it litterally sounds like a giant robot is walking outside my house! I mean literally



Thanks for that

I am going from a HSU STF-2 in a 2400 CU ft room.

I know a LV12R would be an improvement,but I see where you are coming from

I guess its only money:)

Shawn
post #12016 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Do you have limiter ON (the power slide switch at the middle position)? The limiter will prevent the amp from clipping which can push the subwoofer into producing more port noise.

I believe I do. I'll double check when I get home, and slide it to "off" if so and try it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post


Second, do you have roomEQ? If roomEQ also boost signals below 20hz, it can make port noise more audible. Switching to 2 port mode will make port noise less audible. You have to try it to see if you can hear the difference.

No, I do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Third, do you use "True-HD"? I found myself also bitten by this bug. I have a Denon AVR. I recently bought Sony Blueray player and it enables True-HD by default and LFE effect is just too overwhelming (even a dance mix at club scene will make the house shake like earthquake). However, if I ask the player to mix it first and then output to Denon AVR, the bass is more natural (just like what I had with previous players, in Dolby digital mode though) and Denon AVR shows the input source is "multi-channel inputs". I had both Samsung and LG before, and their default output mode is Dolby digital and I never had this problem. I guess they fix in into Dobly digital before sending it to my Denon AVR. This is the same problem we found with Woody777 that his FV15HP can hear the port noise so much easier and I went to his house and notitced the bass really sounded over-emphasized. The THX "life" demo track sounded very unnatural. We cannot figure out why. What is worse is Audyssey won't able to fix this type of problem because the problem is in the codec. After I left, Woody777 put the LFE trim as -10db for "True-HD" audio modes, everything sounded more natural. Note that is LFE trim is not same as subwoofer trim. This LFE trim is to tell AVR how .1 LFE signal strength relative to other channels should be interpreted.

-

I do, but dont use it. Im using a Pioneer Elite VSX52 receiver, and use the THX modes for everything. So the TrueHD issue is moot.

Now that I think about it I think theres a couple of LFE settings within the THX processing I can look at again. I may have it boosted a bit from my previous subs.

Thanks for the quick reply Brian-
post #12017 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGBMAN View Post

I guess its only money:)

In the end, three things stand out; money, emotions and at the end of the process, where does the buyer want to be.

Me? I want to be at the end of the road. Why? I want to be in a chair with a bag of microwave popcorn, enjoying the next great bass heavy movie. What I don't want, is to be chasing the next best subwoofer idea.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 12/1/13 at 9:10am
post #12018 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

In the end, three things stand out; money, emotions and at the end of the process, where does the buyer want to be.

Me? I want to be at the end of the road. Why? I want to be in a chair with a bag of microwave popcorn, enjoying the next great bass heavy movie. What I don't want, is to be chasing the next best subwoofer idea.

-

I would definitely take that advice!

Imo if u are having trouble deciding on 2 always spend the extra cash and just be done with it
post #12019 of 15139
Thanks for the thoughts BeeMan

In the end I am looking for the same thing you are.

I guess I am just looking for the best solution I can within my budget.

Living in Canada,shipping on some of the larger units is prohibitive

SVS have a Canadian distributor,so this helps,but is also limiting my choices

Shawn
post #12020 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Imo if u are having trouble deciding on 2 always spend the extra cash and just be done with it

Your comment below, to me, is the kinda post that best describes what the subwoofer chase is all about when you posted:

Quote:
....with the 15s even at medium volumes I really FEEL the footsteps I feel the preassure and so does my whole room when I
Crank it up it it litterally sounds like a giant robot is walking outside my house! I mean literally
post #12021 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by longs91peak View Post

Braveheart,

Thanks for the link to the adapter. I understand that the RCA receiver output is unbalanced and that the referenced adapter can't change that.

I will have a 25 ft run and Rythmik suggests using an XLR input type of sub amp for that.

My assumption is that I just don't understand how to do it??? Is it then typical just to use a high quality RCA cable for long runs from HT Receivers to subs?

Thanks

I am using over 35 ft of RCA cable run between AVR and where my sub is located. Though the actual distance is 12 ft; but running the cable along the walls and door jacks it up to 35 ft. There is absolutely no loss in signal strength and no EMI. I checked it with multimeter. All you need is a good quality (shielded and EMI free) RCA cable and you are good to go.

No need for XLR adaptor.
post #12022 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

Imo if u are having trouble deciding on 2 always spend the extra cash and just be done with it
+1
"What if" is a terrible state of mind to be in when trying to enjoy your system. You only live once. Don't spend your time wondering. Go for the gusto. Go for what you "know" is the "right" sub even if it seems to be at a level that cannot be obtained. If you really want it, you'll figure out a way to get it.
post #12023 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post



All IME, IMO, etc. And as usual there are always cases in the home where XLR makes sense, and there are plenty of consumer components that have XLR outputs as well. - Don

One thing on this XLR vs single ended debate is high frequency transimission requires impedance matching. Differential signals are all low impedance. For instance, when I designed the XLR amps, I have problem determining the proper input impedance. If I make it too low (like most other equipments), then the current draw from the source will introduce distortion and other sonic degradation. In comparison, single end input often has impedance of 30kohm or above which draws very little current. XLR often has 2kohm input impedance, which draws a lot more current. We designed ours to 10kohms. In XLR, I cannot really make them as high as 30kohms or the noise level will increase.

Good point Brian. As you imply, pro gear uses much lower-impedance XLR compared to single-ended consumer units. RF, even lower. (Brian and I have related day jobs so RF transmission is no stranger to either of us. His expertise extends far beyond subwoofers, and as anybody has has tried one knows, his subwoofer expertise is a force to be reckoned with!)
post #12024 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I am using over 35 ft of RCA cable run between AVR and where my sub is located. Though the actual distance is 12 ft; but running the cable along the walls and door jacks it up to 35 ft. There is absolutely no loss in signal strength and no EMI. I checked it with multimeter. All you need is a good quality (shielded and EMI free) RCA cable and you are good to go.
My experience is a little different. I spent months trying to track down and isolate EMI noise in my room. Re-routed cables, isolated power away from RCAs and totally cleaned up everything that might have been adding to the problem to no avail. I started my XLR cable change-out with the 7 cables running from my Parasound pre-pro to my Parasound Halo amps and voila, no more noise. So when I ordered my FV15HP I made sure to get the XLR amp and immediately hooked it up utilizing the XLR out from my pre-pro to the XLR input on the sub amp. No noise and I'm not sure if there would have or have not been noise with the RCA connection as I never even gave it a try.
Quote:
No need for XLR adaptor.
+1
Everything I've read says that a RCA/XLR adapter defeats the purpose of XLR because you still have the single ended cabling on one end of the run
post #12025 of 15139
Ok guys, I am still struggling to decide on what Bass Extension settings to use for my dual F25's! My goal is to "pressurize" my room as much as possible (high SPL's) but I also know that some of the high action movies have more and more content under 20Hz lately, so I want to try to not miss out on that material but I know that requires sacrificing SPL to dig deeper due to higher power requirements.

Right now, I am using 28Hz/Low with Rumble Fliter ON (per Rythmik recommendations for highest SPL). After running my room EQ software (Anthem ARC) the corrected frequency response shows a roll-off starting to happen right around 28Hz (as expected) and the response shows as being 2dB down @ 20Hz. Since Anthem ARC doesn't correct under 20Hz, I cannot see what is happening with the frequency response sub-20Hz, but I can safely assume it keeps rolling off due to the 28Hz/Low and Rumble Filter being ON. Which also means it is probably safe to assume that "feeling" movie content sub-20Hz with the settings I am using is not happening. What settings have people found to be the best mix of high SPL's and sub-20Hz response at authoritative levels?

Here is the Anthem ARC results for my dual F25's from 20Hz to 100Hz. The dotted blue line is the "calculated" optimum frequency response, the red line is the "uncorrected" (natural) frequency response, and the green line is the "corrected" frequency response applied to the subs (what you are hearing at the listening position).
post #12026 of 15139
You haven't downloaded REW?
post #12027 of 15139
No extra time for the coming weeks to even fathom playing around with REW
post #12028 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Here is the Anthem ARC results for my dual F25's from 20Hz to 100Hz. The dotted blue line is the "calculated" optimum frequency response, the red line is the "uncorrected" (natural) frequency response, and the green line is the "corrected" frequency response applied to the subs (what you are hearing at the listening position).

The 28hz low damping produces an un-EQ curve with a hump at 30hz and start rolling off below that. As you can see Anthem still boost 20hz to make it flat to 20hz at least This is what I call the roomEQ trying to "undo" the extension and damping setting that you have in the first place. So our recommendation is you first set the extension to 14hz and low damping and let Anthem do it is roomEQ. This should produce the least amount of low end boost. After that, you can then try different damping and frequency setting and determine which one works best for you. you can then try rumble filter. It filters out the signals below 18hz. Limiter should always be "ON".
post #12029 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

The 28hz low damping produces an un-EQ curve with a hump at 30hz and start rolling off below that. As you can see Anthem still boost 20hz to make it flat to 20hz at least This is what I call the roomEQ trying to "undo" the extension and damping setting that you have in the first place. So our recommendation is you first set the extension to 14hz and low damping and let Anthem do it is roomEQ. This should produce the least amount of low end boost. After that, you can then try different damping and frequency setting and determine which one works best for you. you can then try rumble filter. It filters out the signals below 18hz. Limiter should always be "ON".

Thanks Brian! I forgot about your recommendation to run EQ with 14Hz/Low first.
post #12030 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackangst View Post

I believe I do. I'll double check when I get home, and slide it to "off" if so and try it out.
No, I do not.
I do, but dont use it. Im using a Pioneer Elite VSX52 receiver, and use the THX modes for everything. So the TrueHD issue is moot.

Now that I think about it I think theres a couple of LFE settings within the THX processing I can look at again. I may have it boosted a bit from my previous subs.


Hmmm, some apples and oranges here.

Your receiver does have room correction capability, it's called MCACC.

True-HD isn't moot (if the content uses a True-HD audio track). True-HD and DTS-HD MA are the lossless compression schemes (chosen by the content creators) used to store the audio tracks on the BR discs (they are unrelated/independent of any THX processing). Since the audio tracks are compressed on the disc, they must be uncompressed in order for them to be used. This decompression can be performed by either your BR player or the AVR. If you configure your BR player to do the decompressing internally, it will do so then send PCM/LPCM data to the AVR (the AVR's display will typically show LPCM or MultiChannel). If you don't configure your BR player to decompress internally it will send the raw bitstream to the AVR and the AVR will do the decompressing (the AVR's display will typically show Dolby True-HD or DTS-HD MA). This decompression step must always occur, whether in the BR player or the AVR, before any further processing (e.g. THX modes) can occur.

From glancing at your AVR's manual, it appears that the various THX modes are either preset EQ curves or pseudo-surround modes, or both. Having these modes enabled may in fact, be a part of your problem as you may be getting a big boost in the low end as Brian suggested.

If it was me, I would start off by disabling all the THX modes, then doing a complete MCACC calibration. Only if I wasn't satisfied with the MCACC results would I then experiment with the THX modes. But YMMV.

Good luck.
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