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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 231

post #6901 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

One should crossover the the sub-mains as high as possible? perhaps 200Hz?
One should cross over the sub as high as you can before it becomes localizable. That crossover frequency will vary based a variety of factors, including your hearing. Some people can start to heard directionality at 60Hz, others at 80Hz, some can't tell where the sub is even when it's producing a 100Hz tone. Find out where that point is for you. Personally, I wouldn't cross over at 200Hz; at that point I can hear male vocals coming from the drection of the sub.
post #6902 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

One should cross over the sub as high as you can before it becomes localizable. That crossover frequency will vary based a variety of factors, including your hearing. Some people can start to heard directionality at 60Hz, others at 80Hz, some can't tell where the sub is even when it's producing a 100Hz tone. Find out where that point is for you. Personally, I wouldn't cross over at 200Hz; at that point I can hear male vocals coming from the drection of the sub.

Audyssey crosses over my Rythmik FV15 at 110hz. Should I be trusting Audyssey or my ears?

Jeff
post #6903 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post

Audyssey crosses over my Rythmik FV15 at 110hz. Should I be trusting Audyssey or my ears?
Jeff

DOes your receiver use a single crossover for all speakers?

FWIW, it's the receiver manufacturer's "logic" that sets the crossover points, not Audyssey. The usual concerns from that perspective relate to receivers setting speakers to large when their -3dB point is 40 or 50 Hz. AUdyssey has pretty much always recommended raising crossovers in that case. But that's not what you have going on.

The usual speculation is that the receivers' logic will place the crossover at the first available point above the measured -3dB of the relevant speaker(s). In your situation, that means something is rolling off above 80 Hz (or whatever the next lowest crossover point is. If that's the case, in theory, by lowering the crossover, you will create a bit of a dip in frequency response between where the speaker(s) run out of steam and where the sub picks up. But it might be a very narrow dip, and might be unnoticable on most program material.

SO the answer, IMO, is to experiment with lower corssover settings either using a range of program material or (IMO preferably) using outboard test noise (because your receiver won't bass manage the test tones it generates) to see if you hear a difference. Then you can make an enlightened determination whether lowering the crossovers makes any real impact at all, or choose whichever less-than-perfect alternative you prefer. Totally IMO, if I were hearing significant amounts of musical instruments or movie sound effects as coming from the sub, it would bother me enough to be willing to live with a 3 or 4o dB dip across half an octave or so . . . most likely. I remember when I was first setting up my current system and my sub was corner loaded. I couldn't seem to find any crossover setting that kept the sub from being localizable to me. Something about that particular sub and my particular room, I expect. Moving it to 2/3 down the front wall eliminated that problem and made it so there's little noticeable frequency response difference to me with crossovers at 50, to 80 Hz . . .
post #6904 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by pronghorn/az View Post

Audyssey crosses over my Rythmik FV15 at 110hz. Should I be trusting Audyssey or my ears?
Jeff

+1 on what JHAz said. The receiver likely choose that point based on the performance of your mains. What are your mains, center, and surrounds? Did it cross all the channels at that level? I like my crossover lower than that (60-80), but if that's what your speakers are putting out -3db, better to use that than to have a hole in your frequency response. Can you tell where the sub is by sound alone (localize it)?
post #6905 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post


try experimenting with sub level and cross over. I would think rf 7's would sound good crossed at 60. you could also make sure dynamic volume is off and eperiment with dynamic eq. I like dynamic eq on for lower level listening. also make sure your speakers are set to small.

I noticed that Audessy manual stated to set all speakers to small, why is this?
post #6906 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by bermise View Post

I noticed that Audessy manual stated to set all speakers to small, why is this?

In the vast majority of systems that will produce the best results. Setting speakers to small will cause the receiver to crossover the low frequencies and send them to the sub. My receiver allows "Full Band" or choose a crossover point which I think is less confusing naming than the Large Small scheme. When set to large the mains will get full range content and the sub will only receive info from the ".1" LFE channel. Even if your speakers do produce 30hz or lower, you will commonly get better overall sound with a crossover and sub.
post #6907 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by bermise View Post

I noticed that Audessy manual stated to set all speakers to small, why is this?
For Denon AVR this is prerequisite for proper bass management. I suspect it's probably the same for other brands as well.
post #6908 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Well, the best way is partnership in the future. We will soon release the 8" sealed subs that can go to 200hz easily (and maybe 250hz). The low end extension will be 20hz at least. That can create a speaker system with only one crossover point and with servo at the bottom end that controls the Rhythm of the sound. It should really be the most ideal setup.
You already have a working relationship with GR research seems to me that would be the way to go. I am looking for DIY home theater speakers designs now I just think his are a little small for my room. I have heard nothing but good things about his products.
post #6909 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

In the vast majority of systems that will produce the best results. Setting speakers to small will cause the receiver to crossover the low frequencies and send them to the sub. My receiver allows "Full Band" or choose a crossover point which I think is less confusing naming than the Large Small scheme. When set to large the mains will get full range content and the sub will only receive info from the ".1" LFE channel. Even if your speakers do produce 30hz or lower, you will commonly get better overall sound with a crossover and sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

For Denon AVR this is prerequisite for proper bass management. I suspect it's probably the same for other brands as well.

Good to know, thanks for the replies!
post #6910 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

DOes your receiver use a single crossover for all speakers?
FWIW, it's the receiver manufacturer's "logic" that sets the crossover points, not Audyssey. The usual concerns from that perspective relate to receivers setting speakers to large when their -3dB point is 40 or 50 Hz. AUdyssey has pretty much always recommended raising crossovers in that case. But that's not what you have going on.
The usual speculation is that the receivers' logic will place the crossover at the first available point above the measured -3dB of the relevant speaker(s). In your situation, that means something is rolling off above 80 Hz (or whatever the next lowest crossover point is. If that's the case, in theory, by lowering the crossover, you will create a bit of a dip in frequency response between where the speaker(s) run out of steam and where the sub picks up. But it might be a very narrow dip, and might be unnoticable on most program material.
SO the answer, IMO, is to experiment with lower corssover settings either using a range of program material or (IMO preferably) using outboard test noise (because your receiver won't bass manage the test tones it generates) to see if you hear a difference. Then you can make an enlightened determination whether lowering the crossovers makes any real impact at all, or choose whichever less-than-perfect alternative you prefer. Totally IMO, if I were hearing significant amounts of musical instruments or movie sound effects as coming from the sub, it would bother me enough to be willing to live with a 3 or 4o dB dip across half an octave or so . . . most likely. I remember when I was first setting up my current system and my sub was corner loaded. I couldn't seem to find any crossover setting that kept the sub from being localizable to me. Something about that particular sub and my particular room, I expect. Moving it to 2/3 down the front wall eliminated that problem and made it so there's little noticeable frequency response difference to me with crossovers at 50, to 80 Hz . . .

Audyssey sets my Paradigm Monitor 9's at 40hz as well as the center. Even my new surrounds (Monitor Surround 3) are set like my older ADP 150's at 90hz which to me is weird because they are a much better surround! I put every speaker at 80hz except the sub. Note, Audyssey set my old Paradigm PS1200 at 120hz before I replaced it.

Jeff
post #6911 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Well, the best way is partnership in the future. We will soon release the 8" sealed subs that can go to 200hz easily (and maybe 250hz). The low end extension will be 20hz at least. That can create a speaker system with only one crossover point and with servo at the bottom end that controls the Rhythm of the sound. It should really be the most ideal setup.

Here is the photo of the prototype. The white dot on the dust cap is for me to observe the excursion. The amp is 300Wx2 dual power amp module amp. It will first appear as a kit to encourage customers mating them with high end full range (above 200hz) niche market transducers. Here is photo



Here is the frequency response.



FR is very similar to all of our other sealed subs and that is no coincidence. We use our unique transfer function cloning technique here. The output is just a bit less than one DS1200. But it extends to 200hz. If one wants to stretch a bit, it can crossover at 250hz. We expect the customers to use a pair. The future project may be a plate that can host quad amp modules.

As for how it sounds, I use them to test the poem of chinese drums and Blue man group. I like the sound very much.
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post #6912 of 9690
Some has asked how the next revision of FV12 looks like. Here is some preproduction photos.






We plan to release this model under a different series so that it is easier for the customers to compare the product lines. This new line will include all entry level product in each category. I need some suggestion on which letter we should designate this line to. I initial thought was "L". So we have LV12. In the future, we may have an LS12,...etc. Some also suggest "R" series. Let me hear your opinion.
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post #6913 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Some also suggest "R" series. Let me hear your opinion.
That's what I would go with RV (rear vented).
post #6914 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That's what I would go with RV (rear vented).

Plus 1 on the RV Brian!

Jeff
post #6915 of 9690
Very cool on the 8" drivers. Is the recommended volume for each woofer still about 15L? Trying to think how many woofers since a 2 way with a 5" midrange does not take up much height. I think 3 per side worked when I did calculations in November of last year so may have to use a Tetris L Edit - to fit the fourth driver since duals are needed per amp biggrin.gif
Edited by kwarny - 8/30/12 at 8:55am
post #6916 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

That's what I would go with RV (rear vented).

What if we introduce a sealed version or dual driver sealed version with similar drivers smile.gif My thought was the rear ported version can be LV12R. The front ported version (if it ever is in production again will be LV12). The single driver sealed will be L12 or LS12, and dual will be LS22.
Edited by Rythmik - 8/30/12 at 4:16am
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post #6917 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

What if we introduce a sealed version or dual driver sealed version with similar drivers smile.gif My thought was the rear ported version can be LV12R. The front ported version (if it ever is in production again will be LV12). The single driver sealed will be L12 or LS12, and dual will be LS22.

I think the idea of a lower cost (~ $600) sealed 12" is a wonderful idea and would sell well as introductory option for those who can't afford a F12 (of which I have a pair on order by the way).biggrin.gif The pending ported 12" should sell well too, but I don't think there is a need for front and rear ported versions. As for the dual 12" sealed or ported, my question would be how much they would distinguish themselves in terms of output, extension, and price versus your current 15" products? If there are notable differences in two of these three factors, it would make sense. If not, ensure the pending 12" subs (sealed and ported) have the master/slave option on the amp so if someone wants dual output with the smaller physical footprint of a 12" in the future, they could simply add another sub. Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I think the single 12" sub with master/slave option presents superior value to the dual 12" because of flexibility, upgrade-ability, and lower initial cost of entry; which is not a minor issue in these hard financial times.
post #6918 of 9690
I also like the idea of a budget priced sealed 12". I think there are people who want the quality of a sealed sub, but don't need extreme volume and don't have a big budget. I'm wondering what exactly the compromise in performance would be, compared to the F12. Would it have the same low end extension?
post #6919 of 9690
Not sure what you do do for price reduction without compromising quality in a cheaper F12? I do not know, just thinking out loud. I suppose go down in amp power, stick with the less expensive speaker (driver), no veneer, etc.

No particular feelings on the names (no dog in that hunt). L in front, whatever. Could even go the LE for "lite" approach like SW companies, e.g. F12LE.
post #6920 of 9690
How much distance from the rear of the subwoofer to the wall is required , for a rear ported subwoofer to operate properly.
post #6921 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Some has asked how the next revision of FV12 looks like. Here is some preproduction photos.


We plan to release this model under a different series so that it is easier for the customers to compare the product lines. This new line will include all entry level product in each category. I need some suggestion on which letter we should designate this line to. I initial thought was "L". So we have LV12. In the future, we may have an LS12,...etc. Some also suggest "R" series. Let me hear your opinion.

How would mating the FV12 with the front facing port work with the new one with the rear facing port? I ask because I have the original FV12 but before I could purchase a second one they were out of stock and I'm wondering if I purchase the newly designed one, would it be problematic with the sound. I know its very difficult to match a ported and sealed sub but not sure how front facing and rear facing ported subs would be.
post #6922 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

What if we introduce a sealed version
S12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

or dual driver sealed version
S12DD (dual driver)
(S12DF = down firing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

My thought was the rear ported version can be LV12R. The front ported version (if it ever is in production again will be LV12). The single driver sealed will be L12 or LS12, and dual will be LS22.
What's with the L? Is the previous series F stand for First and the current L for Later?
post #6923 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What's with the L? Is the previous series F stand for First and the current L for Later?

You must be kidding. Tongue in the cheek in not good here smile.gif

The F is for front firing vs D for down firing. Then we have E (which is smaller footprint of F) and that is for elegance. These are all based on our A370 amplifier heasink footprint. They have their pricing points because the driver/amplifier in those models. We now just need a different letter to designate a new series with a completely different ampliifer option. I want to preserve the naming convention so that we don't need to rename all previous models.
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post #6924 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by legend53 View Post

How much distance from the rear of the subwoofer to the wall is required , for a rear ported subwoofer to operate properly.

I would recommend 6" minimal.
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post #6925 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Not sure what you do do for price reduction without compromising quality in a cheaper F12? I do not know, just thinking out loud. I suppose go down in amp power, stick with the less expensive speaker (driver), no veneer, etc...

I think all these things would apply to keep the price of a entry level 12" subwoofer under control, plus provide logical distinction from the F series.
post #6926 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I would recommend 6" minimal.

Though I suspect this distance won't be an issue for most people, it is a reason why I generally prefer front ported subs and speakers: Placement flexibility.
post #6927 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by elockett View Post

Though I suspect this distance won't be an issue for most people, it is a reason why I generally prefer front ported subs and speakers: Placement flexibility.

I have also use as close as 4". Now the reason for us to go with rear firing is the supplier does not wan tto make grille out of the transparent cloth. They asked for a cost increase that would reflect as a $30 increase in retail price. I think it is outrageous.
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post #6928 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by ms987 View Post

How would mating the FV12 with the front facing port work with the new one with the rear facing port? I ask because I have the original FV12 but before I could purchase a second one they were out of stock and I'm wondering if I purchase the newly designed one, would it be problematic with the sound. I know its very difficult to match a ported and sealed sub but not sure how front facing and rear facing ported subs would be.

How do you like it Shiles? How long have you had it now?
post #6929 of 9690
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

How do you like it Shiles? How long have you had it now?

I've had the FV12 for about 17 months and it's great. I paired it with a Jamo 5.0 system and I couldn't ask for anything more from it. I moved to a new house like 6 months ago and my theater room is bigger here so I would like to add a second one to even out the room response (and partly because I just want another one wink.gif). But it still sounds great with just the one.
post #6930 of 9690
Cool.
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