or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 239

post #7141 of 15139
^^
Thanks. I will give those settings a try.
post #7142 of 15139
As I mentioned a month ago that I sent a pair of prototype HX800 (for dual 12" or 15" drivers) and a pair of prototype HX600 (for dual 8" driver) to Blueberry Hill Audio in their new products released at Toronto AV Entertainment show. It turns out to be a success. The report from Stereophile magazine can be found in http://www.stereophile.com/content/taves-day-3. In the middle of the page is a photo of those speakers and the designer Marlen Mogilever. In the same show last year, Marlen demoed Rhapsody 3D which uses a single 12" driver in each channel. That was also praised as one of the best sounds in 2011 TAVES. This year, Marlen releases two new models Nocturne 3D (using our 8" drivers) and Rhapsody 4D. Both use the opposing dual drivers in each channel. Again the feedback is very positive: two magazines write it is one of the best sounds, and one magazine writes it is definitively the best sound of the show. The room was packed with attendees which is not good for the next door exhibitors. What separates Blueberry Hill speakers from other exhibitors is the bass modules. Even the exhibitors from other companies come over and listen and they all agree it is the bass modules that makes the music a whole again. Once you get the bass rhythm right, the music just flows more beautifully. Marlen had 3 weeks to put everything together after receiving our prototypes. That also demonstrates how easy our modules can integrate right out of box.

Robert Deutsch writes about the sound of Nocturne 3D: "And what about the sound? Clean, wide-ranging (claimed to go down to 12Hz), ultra-quick, with startling dynamics. Most definitely one of the best sounds of the show. " There is no single mentioning of how the bass sounds like. That is what the ultimate audio should sound like: completely integrated from top to down. I know customers are eager to get hands on these new drivers and HX series amps. HX800 is ready for production with HX600 shortly after.
Edited by Rythmik - 10/12/12 at 8:19am
post #7143 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by janusz.pradzynski View Post

No one has checked output from the HP crossover?
If you do and find it unacceptable then the quick solution is to bypass it by adding cap to the input of the satelite system amp or preamp. That would create a frirst order filter at 90-120Hz. In my system I set it to 110Hz.
Long term solution is adding a new 2nd order Bessel crossover in the sub box. Input taken from LINE IN and output going to LINE OUT. LINE OUT connection to the original crossover desoldered. The new board should have a crossover frequency set to the most desirable for perfect matching of the sub with the rest of the system (most likely between 70 and 90Hz). The crossover board must have its own PS fed from the H600PEQ transformer 2x16.5V AC.
cheers,

If you are nit-picking as I am, you will find the best sound is a passive RC with minimal active circuit on the main signal paths to your front speakers. For my own setup, I bought the schematic for my AVR. Go in there and add RC. Our early models do have HPF RCA output. But you will find out as the resolution of your system increases, even a slight change in the circuit can cause a sound signature difference and eventually those audiophiles settle with full range front speakers and only use subwoofers to augment the bass where the front channels begin to fall short. For Blueberry Hill Audio setup that I mention in last post, he uses single ended tube amps to drive their Fostex module. It is the minimalist approach. That is why we begin to phase out HPF and use those RCA as LFE inputs. Also Marlen uses RCA interconnect, instead of speaker level inputs. I am aware that another manufacturer (REL specifically) recommend to use speaker level inputs. But we recommend line level interconnect (RCA or XLR) over speaker level inputs.
Edited by Rythmik - 10/12/12 at 8:03am
post #7144 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

If you are nit-picking as I am, you will find the best sound is a passive RC with minimal active circuit on the main signal paths to your front speakers. For my own setup, I bought the schematic for my AVR. Go in there and add RC.
Brian, can I just check if you mean that the Rythmik amp has a HP crossover that is a passive RC, or that you are referring to your own (personal) system?
post #7145 of 15139
Got my fv15hp hooked up to where my old hsu vtf2.3 was. I have not got a chance to rerun Audessey set up yet but it sounds very good so far. If I flip the switch to 20hz extension filter, does it mean the sub won't go lower than 20hz? I am currently have it at 14hz with high damping. Can someone also explain to me with the low, medium and high damping? Does most of you guys who has this fv15 runs it in 2 ports open or 1? I am running mine with 2 ports open. Thank you in advance as I am trying to gather the information to achieve the best possible performance out of this sub in my room. I know I first need to rerun Audessey which I will do as soon as I have time (The sub arrived the day my wife delivered our newborn).
post #7146 of 15139
The crossover in the Rythmik amps is active. Brian is talking about his own personal crossover. You can buy in-line passive crossovers, get really nice ones from places like Marchand, or roll your own. As Brian implies by getting the schematics, you need to know the impedances to calculate the correct values, but you can usually make a decent guess since AVR/preamp Zout is usually pretty low (1 - 100 pohms) and amp inputs pretty high (10k - 100k or more).
post #7147 of 15139
Thanks for the clarification, DonH50
post #7148 of 15139
I just put my order in on a f15HP! smile.gif It is to be paired with my new Magnepan 1.6's which I am currently running with the older Bash amp version of the PB12nsd. This is for 2.1 music only in a large room (4500^3). Anyone running a similar setup that can give some tips on settings? Thanks!
post #7149 of 15139
One thing to add, I have no EQ ability with my receiver, everything will have to be done on the sub.
post #7150 of 15139
Hi Brian,

Can you please add more info on why RCA level connection is recommended over speaker level for Rythmik subs. Is this limited to HT setups or applies to both HT and 2 channel ?


Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I am aware that another manufacturer (REL specifically) recommend to use speaker level inputs. But we recommend line level interconnect (RCA or XLR) over speaker level inputs.

Edited by qguy - 10/15/12 at 10:27pm
post #7151 of 15139
Not brian, but the idea generally is that the receiver's crossover provides superior overall control for blending of the sub with mains. I don't recall if Rythmik's speaker level connections give you an adjustable high pass at all, which would be severly limiting . . .
post #7152 of 15139
Hi,

does somebody know the input impedance of the Line In of the rythmik H600-PEQ3 ?

Thanks a lot

Harry
post #7153 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragman78 View Post

I just put my order in on a f15HP! smile.gif It is to be paired with my new Magnepan 1.6's which I am currently running with the older Bash amp version of the PB12nsd. This is for 2.1 music only in a large room (4500^3). Anyone running a similar setup that can give some tips on settings? Thanks!

I would dial in the Maggies' postions first if you haven't already, then the sub. You might want to do the sub crawl to find the best place for the sub (search AVS for directions).

An active crossover really helps as you can limit LF signals into the Maggies (you should have that if you are using an AVR or receiveer with any sort of room correction). I would start at 80 Hz, an octave above the 1.6's stated low end, and see how they sound. If you don't have measurement capability and your preamp does not have room correction, borrow/download/buy test tones or LF pink noise and adjust the sub's phase control for maximum output at the crossover frequency, then adjust the sub's volume control to match the mains.

That's the simple approach but should get you started.
post #7154 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Not brian, but the idea generally is that the receiver's crossover provides superior overall control for blending of the sub with mains. I don't recall if Rythmik's speaker level connections give you an adjustable high pass at all, which would be severly limiting . . .

^^^ This plus the line outs are typically lower-noise, lower-distortion, and (most importantly) are not affected by speaker-amp interaction. Not to mention that if you use an AVR or other crossover and roll off the low end to the speakers (as you should) with a HPF, then nothing goes to the sub from the speaker outputs...
post #7155 of 15139
I just wanted to know if the problem is in my particular amp or not.

Actually I considered adding large polypropylene caps forming first order passive filter in my main speaker system and even found suitable ones but that solution would cost me close to $200 and would have to wait a few weeks for delivery.

As a guick fix I used polypropylene caps to turn my main active crossover input buffers into first order crossovers as second order board would not fit in the box. I tested opa627 but also some other opamps and LME49710 performed equally well. One has only go for high enough cap values and low resistor values and that was my first choice even with opa627. To optimize lme49710 performance one could probably try even lower resistances. I also found that bypassing HP in H600PEQ with gain of two allows me for better matching of the sub with my main system. Before I had to turn H600PEQ vvolume to the max or close to it and now I have some room to play with.

First order active and passive would be probably a perfect solution with 8" main drivers but at the moment my both systems use 2x6.5" drivers and these either have to be "cut off" at higher frequencies or second order filter has to be used at lower frequencies. In my new project for the front system I'm thinking of using 10" drivers as it's difficult to find 12-16ohm quality 8" drivers and one 8" is roughly 2x6.5" although usually with lower res frequency. First order HP crossover should work very well with these.

cheers,
post #7156 of 15139
The input impedance of LINE-IN is 33kohms. BTW, I have problem quoting a post. Does anyone else have a similar issue?
post #7157 of 15139
Thanks for the input Don,

The Maggies are already placed well. The room is a large rectangle with 2 stair openings. The sub is within a bay window enclosure but still about 6" from the rear wall and 5" from the side, the rythmik being smaller will be even further. I should be able to take some pics tonight. I did some measurements with the SVS and i got +- 3.5 dB from 60-30 Hz, I am assuming that a different sub in the same location will yield similar results?
post #7158 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragman78 View Post

Thanks for the input Don,
The Maggies are already placed well. The room is a large rectangle with 2 stair openings. The sub is within a bay window enclosure but still about 6" from the rear wall and 5" from the side, the rythmik being smaller will be even further. I should be able to take some pics tonight. I did some measurements with the SVS and i got +- 3.5 dB from 60-30 Hz, I am assuming that a different sub in the same location will yield similar results?

Yes. If you can dig up the old thread comparing multiple farily big commercial subs it's very easy to see that the room trumps the differences between the subs, at least without EQ. By a long shot. So that subs that roll off starting around 50 Hz or so look much like those that reach to 14 Hz. Depends on the room, though.
post #7159 of 15139
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1420544/ne-pa-ny-nj-de-md-va-gtg-take-two/480
Headed up to a GTG with my FV15HP Friday to be shown on Saturday. Of the subs coming it's prolly middle of the packish but some of the bigger subs are being shown as duals. What configuration should I use when demoing the sub?

We keep saying this isn't going to be an SPL competition, but we are doing compression sweeps (and FR graphs) and we're a bunch of enthusiasts travelling from all over bringing our pretty nice subwoofers together so...

I like the extension and am not listening at reference 99.5% of the time so I have always run it as
1port, 14hz extension, low dampening, rumble off.

I'm thinking
A) 1port rumble off, 14hz extension, High dampening
or
B) 2 port rumble on, 20hz extension, mid dampening
or
C) I never thought to do 14hz both ports open, should I consider that?
or
D) Tell me what you think

Also do I need to fear for my subs life, or can I rely on the limiters to protect the sub?

All suggestions welcome, please let me know how you think this sub will show/compare best. There will be minimal EQ applied.

Thanks for your time
post #7160 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I like the extension and am not listening at reference 99.5% of the time so I have always run it as
1port, 14hz extension, low dampening, rumble off.

Also do I need to fear for my subs life, or can I rely on the limiters to protect the sub?
I was worrying about the same thing too. Brian's answer is to set it to 1port, 14hz extension, low damping, rumble filter off, limiter on. This is the safest setting for reference playback level if you want it deep and loud.
Edited by Skylinestar - 10/18/12 at 7:41am
post #7161 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

I was worrying about the same thing too. Brian's answer is to set it to 1port, 14hz extension, low damping, rumble filter off, limiter on. This is the safest setting for reference playback level if you want it deep and loud.

I think I like this idea. FV15HP isn't going to fair well SPL'ing against dual submersives or dual captivators. Let the beauty shine for what it is.
post #7162 of 15139
I run mine both ports open 14Hz mid dampening, I feel it's the best balance for my set up.
post #7163 of 15139
F12 is on sale now. 10% discount on single F12 black oak or black matte. The discount for mulitpe F12 sub purchase remains the same.
post #7164 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

As I mentioned a month ago that I sent a pair of prototype HX800 (for dual 12" or 15" drivers) and a pair of prototype HX600 (for dual 8" driver) to Blueberry Hill Audio in their new products released at Toronto AV Entertainment show. It turns out to be a success. The report from Stereophile magazine can be found in http://www.stereophile.com/content/taves-day-3. In the middle of the page is a photo of those speakers and the designer Marlen Mogilever. In the same show last year, Marlen demoed Rhapsody 3D which uses a single 12" driver in each channel. That was also praised as one of the best sounds in 2011 TAVES. This year, Marlen releases two new models Nocturne 3D (using our 8" drivers) and Rhapsody 4D. Both use the opposing dual drivers in each channel. Again the feedback is very positive: two magazines write it is one of the best sounds, and one magazine writes it is definitively the best sound of the show. The room was packed with attendees which is not good for the next door exhibitors. What separates Blueberry Hill speakers from other exhibitors is the bass modules. Even the exhibitors from other companies come over and listen and they all agree it is the bass modules that makes the music a whole again. Once you get the bass rhythm right, the music just flows more beautifully. Marlen had 3 weeks to put everything together after receiving our prototypes. That also demonstrates how easy our modules can integrate right out of box.

Robert Deutsch writes about the sound of Nocturne 3D: "And what about the sound? Clean, wide-ranging (claimed to go down to 12Hz), ultra-quick, with startling dynamics. Most definitely one of the best sounds of the show. " There is no single mentioning of how the bass sounds like. That is what the ultimate audio should sound like: completely integrated from top to down. I know customers are eager to get hands on these new drivers and HX series amps. HX800 is ready for production with HX600 shortly after.

Congratulations, Brian!

You should be very proud of your Direct Servo subs!

No doubt Marlen Mogilever design had a lot to do with the sound of the speaker, but I can't help thinking your subs played a major role in the dynamic impact of the speakers.
post #7165 of 15139
The limiter works smile.gif
post #7166 of 15139
Dave,
I am waiting on the full report from the GTG but can you give me a quick summary how it compares to the bigger more expensive Cap and Submersive on a scale from 1 to 10? Did you have time to run it in two ports open or any other configuration? Thanks.
post #7167 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

The limiter works smile.gif

Yeah it does tongue.gif
post #7168 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Dave,
I am waiting on the full report from the GTG but can you give me a quick summary how it compares to the bigger more expensive Cap and Submersive on a scale from 1 to 10? Did you have time to run it in two ports open or any other configuration? Thanks.

Am attempting to hold back for some of the more seasoned and experienced attendees to post their thoughts. The reviews are being filled out and there are several posted now with details. Since some of the reviews are done I'll give the Rythmik my thoughts here now though. (prolly copy and pasted to the GTG thread soon though)

I ran it one port, 14hz, low dampening, rumble off, limiter on, PEQ off, LFE in. As I said, I knew it wasn't going to SPL out subs that cost double+, especially when they are being shown as co-located duals + a triple, on top of that (hard to price compare the passive caps though). I tried to show the FV15HP's strengths. First the quick positive, in the order we went, (minus the HSU ULS as I only heard 1/3rd of it and was still getting my bearings, and loved what I did hear... but didn't have anything to gage it on and didn't hear enough to compare. I heard a tad and was very impressed)... In the order we went, this sub was the first IMO to have deep impact, to wow people, to move a lot of air, the folks peppered up quick and were excited. Very positive response.

The material was designed to identify limits and it did. Two points that can easily be interpreted as negatives occurred during the FV15HP demo. I personally do not consider them negatives of the sub, be aware of what ported subs do and do not do. I'm going to be harder on my sub than the others. Let's call them issues, as I said I do not personally consider them negatives.

Issue 1) 5hz to 100hz sine wave boosted way above the level of the other material long and slow engaged the limiter quiet a bit until port tune. 5 hz - 15 hz was not a tiny amount of time; that sweep was slow and CRANKED, which was good, see what the subs can do. For me the limiter protected the sub, ported subs do not play below tune with power, 14hz flatish (slight room bump around 30hz ish) measured at the GTG, down to 10hz in my room (according to RS meter so who knows what that means). It was awesome above the tune and the hardware protected the goods when trouble signals were passed to it.

Issue 2) I'm only sure I heard it on Pulse, but there may have been one other time (in addition to the long slow starting at 5hz sweep), we did achieve port noise. That pulse clip is way below tune. The material was straight brutal.

Both issues can be easily resolved, I think the sharper roll-off (med or high dampening) would have prevented any issue. I could have asked for the minidsp roll-off at or slightly below port tune. Then the two "identified limits" would not have been heard. Those that understood what the two events were, knew what the two events were. If I had run through the material prior, I could have optimized the results, but honestly I'm glad we showed what it does and does not do.

I do dabble at reference occasionally and play at -10 to -5 fairly regularly and have never engaged the limiter or caused port noise in my home. Also not sure if this has been said but the gain structure, recording level, levels in general, and how hot we ran the subs was not to reference. The subs were level matched to each other though, minus the SVS. We think either -8 or -10 db at the GTG was reference for the subs. Therefore "0" in this GTG speak is crazy and we saw some "+" numbers.

The FV15HP did awesome, so tight, so smooth, handled everything above tune happy as can be. I was cranking it on material without sub 10hz material and could not make the limiter engage again. It wanted more, sounded very smooth and tight, and impressed greatly. It had serious impact.

One LMS ultra 5400 woofer I believe is 900ish (no box, no amp, not delivered), dual ultras came up quick after that. Material from the ceiling fell on my head before knocking a bass trap off the wall almost wrecking a speaker (incredible save Austin popalock) during the dual captivators (they tripped a 20amp direct to box line and two breakers on the amp, I think there was 5000ish for real though watts being pushed there), The dual submersive + f2 demo had 6 sealed 18's. WOW. No the Rythmik did not out do SPL wise any of these, nor did I think it would. But, it did very very well IMO, I am still very pleased with my sub, and I'm very proud of how well it did.

On an off the wall point I did find important (suspect others may find irrelevant, maybe) Jeff from JTR was there as well as Mark Seaton. I was super impressed that while demo'ing their gear together, they were not only super classy about it, they appear to me to be friends with great respect for each others products. Their products are in the same market share IMO. In bringing up the Rythmik Mark said some really great things about Brian of Rythmik. Super high quality, super high performance, super high value. At this price point it is the best out IMO, but not only MO. For my situation and ultimate goal for duals, this was by far the best choice.

1 FV15HP compared to 2 JTR captivators for SPL and impact, nope obviously, but I knew that just reading the graphs before the purchase, was super fun to experience soooo many great subs this weekend.

The E15 owner (thanks for the help S) wasn't happy with how he set it up and had some PEQ going. I thought it sounded great and the folks at the GTG were singing praise as well. It has a tad more impact in the reserve then we got out there, but it did awesome. S, did you read what Gorilla's dad said about your piano black?
post #7169 of 15139
Thanks for the GTG report Dave. It reminds me of the wise old adage "Horses for courses". The testimonials for the 18" drivers and subs almost always cite movies as the sound source. Slamming doors, gun shots, maybe dinosaurs stomping around (!). At theatre SPL. That means NOTHING to me. A driver or sub that excels at that task may or may not excel at playing music. Yeah, I know.....sound is sound, bla bla bla. No. Playing music in tandem with the speakers a sub / subs is mated with is a more subtle, refined quality. To make the speakers sound more full-range without calling attention to itself, to reveal the tone and texture of a 1750 German 3/4 Bass, to reproduce the swing of an excellent Jump Blues Band.....these abilities are an entirely different thing from producing the sound effects of a movie. Can a sub be designed to do both without compromizing one for the other? In any human endevour involving opposing requirements, that is a rare thing indeed. It is almost always either a sword, or a rapier. Not both. I have no doubt that owners of the monster subs will assure us that theirs can do both. Depends on how high your standards are, right? What I value in and require of any speaker, including a sub, has much more to do with delicacy that brute force. I'll say it again.....a Cadillac Escalade can't do what a Ferrari can. And visa versa. But we all want both, right?!
post #7170 of 15139
Hell no to the Escalade! No me too pimp-mobiles for me. That's one big piece-o-crap, a rolling example of automotive ignorance!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread