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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 240

post #7171 of 15240
Hi,

what is the difference between using Line In or LFE in when I use the FV15HP Amp only as Sub Amp not as crossover?

I have connected the Rythmik to the Sub Out / LFE of the AVR. In the manual is written that there is a difrerence in noise floor, but what does this mean, when not using the crossover function?

regards

harry
post #7172 of 15240
I've been carrying on for the last couple months trying to decide which Rythmik sub to go with.

I think I've narrowed my choices to either a single fv15hp or dual fv12's.

The room is 11' wide by 16' deep, and it opens to a bar/entertaining room, total airspace is 3000cubic feet.

I will be watching movies at probably -10db from reference, also live concert recordings, videogames, and using the sound system for music for the entertaining room.

Calibration will be done via Audessey XT32.

On one hand, I am drawn to the grunt of the fv15hp. It reaches down to 14hz. However, two fv12's spaced on either side of the room will probably provide a more even bass response, but will they go below 20hz ? Will two 12's SPL like a single 15 ?
post #7173 of 15240
Hi,
I will be buying an F15HP and wanted to ask what about sub break-in.
I have read about people using "special cds" that carry some music/noises to break-in the whole system. Also people saying to just play music/movies as usual and that's it.

How loud should I play while breaking in? Should I restrain myself the first (10?) hours and play quiet, then increase the volume over time?

Is there something I should avoid? (huge explosions, loud tones, etc)
So far I know to not play the test tones or other constant high-volume sound, as this will heat the coils and possibly damage something.

Should I give it some cool down time?
eg. play 1 hour of music, then stop/turn off for 15min, then play again...



Oh and a more Rythmik specific question:
What settings should I use on the PEQ while breaking-in? low damping? 14Hz?


Thanks!
post #7174 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Both issues can be easily resolved, I think the sharper roll-off (med or high dampening) would have prevented any issue. I could have asked for the minidsp roll-off at or slightly below port tune. Then the two "identified limits" would not have been heard. Those that understood what the two events were, knew what the two events were. If I had run through the material prior, I could have optimized the results, but honestly I'm glad we showed what it does and does not do.
So is it better to have it set with med or hi damping? What is the negative setting it to med or hi? Honestly, i am not quite understanding these roll- off settings, can someone explain in detail? What are these damping settings do to sound? Thanks.
post #7175 of 15240
So I have a small dilemma...

I'm building a second F15HP clone for my dedicated home theater...My dimensions are slightly different than the standard F15HP (18" x 19" x 22" outer). My other F15HP clone is placed with the 19" side placed vertically (it is taller rather than wider).

As I'm building my new enclosure I messed up the plate amp orientation (I noticed after the glue had set up). If I place the subwoofer in the same orientation as it's twin, the plate amp will be placed on it's side.

I know that for optimal passive convection cooling the heat sink fins should be placed vertically, but will I be ok if I place the amp horizontally?

Probably not necessary to mention, but the older subwoofer has a H600 plate amp and the new subwoofer has a H550. I've touched the heatsinks on the older subwoofer after a movie and have not noticed much heat.
post #7176 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldemar View Post

Hi,
I will be buying an F15HP and wanted to ask what about sub break-in.
I have read about people using "special cds" that carry some music/noises to break-in the whole system. Also people saying to just play music/movies as usual and that's it.
How loud should I play while breaking in? Should I restrain myself the first (10?) hours and play quiet, then increase the volume over time?
Is there something I should avoid? (huge explosions, loud tones, etc)
So far I know to not play the test tones or other constant high-volume sound, as this will heat the coils and possibly damage something.
Should I give it some cool down time?
eg. play 1 hour of music, then stop/turn off for 15min, then play again...
Oh and a more Rythmik specific question:
What settings should I use on the PEQ while breaking-in? low damping? 14Hz?
Thanks!

These things don't require much break in. Most of the break in is done within the first few minutes. Maybe re-eq or calibrate a few weeks down the road. These aren't small block Chevy motors with flat tappet cams. Bob Crites says everything is done within 30 seconds, and within a second or two for tweeters.
post #7177 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

Hell no to the Escalade! No me too pimp-mobiles for me. That's one big piece-o-crap, a rolling example of automotive ignorance!

Maybe a Hummer would be a better analogy!
post #7178 of 15240
Re; the Escalade. The only thing dummer would be a Hummer ! biggrin.gif
post #7179 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofast1 View Post

Re; the Escalade. The only thing dummer would be a Hummer ! biggrin.gif

Hummer including the h2 and h3 are great vehicles for their intended purpose, which isn't driving the kids to school and picking up a prozac prescription on the way home.
post #7180 of 15240
He-he... an Escapade and a Bummer... tongue.gif

(and no, those weren't typos)
Edited by Ishniknork - 10/23/12 at 8:14pm
post #7181 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_THX View Post

Hi,
what is the difference between using Line In or LFE in when I use the FV15HP Amp only as Sub Amp not as crossover?
I have connected the Rythmik to the Sub Out / LFE of the AVR. In the manual is written that there is a difrerence in noise floor, but what does this mean, when not using the crossover function?
regards
harry
Best I can tell with my F12 is that connecting the AVR sub out to Line In on the subwoofer yeilds more background noise and rumble with TV and movies. It's very easy to experiment with the connections, you should give it a try. I noticed a difference right away.
post #7182 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

I've been carrying on for the last couple months trying to decide which Rythmik sub to go with.
I think I've narrowed my choices to either a single fv15hp or dual fv12's.

For most applicaiton, I will recommend single FV15HP over dual FV12. FV15 has more configuration option. In terms of output, when the dual FV12 is co-located, the output will be just a bit short of one FV15HP in two port mode. What dual FV12 lacks is 1 port mode.
post #7183 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chupalt View Post

Probably not necessary to mention, but the older subwoofer has a H600 plate amp and the new subwoofer has a H550. I've touched the heatsinks on the older subwoofer after a movie and have not noticed much heat.
The fins are designed to place upright. That is the best way to ventilate the heat. But you don't seem to drive the subs hard, in that case, you can place it that way. Make sure you check it a couple of times. H600 and H550 has exactly same circuit topology so they would work well together.
post #7184 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

So is it better to have it set with med or hi damping? What is the negative setting it to med or hi? Honestly, i am not quite understanding these roll- off settings, can someone explain in detail? What are these damping settings do to sound? Thanks.

High damping has the least amount of time ringing. The downside of it is a more gradual roll-off (which slightly reduces power handling). Overall, high damping makes the sound more natural. Low damping on the other hand has more ringing, tends to make the sound boomier. The boomier sound draws attention fast as it can immediately show the presence of "bass". But as you listen more and spend more money upgrading other equipements such as AVR and speakers, you may find the improvement is mainly on how to make sound more natural and realize the boomier sound, although draws attention, does not match as well as the rest of the system. Another factor is some customers simply prefer a stronger presence of bass sound (or boomier sound). Therefore we provide 3 damping settings so the customer can select the setting he likes best.
Edited by Rythmik - 10/24/12 at 8:13am
post #7185 of 15240
^^
Thanks for the detail explanation. It clears all of my confusion. Love what I hear with 1 port open, rumble off, 14hz hi damping settings.
post #7186 of 15240
Brian,

The driver alignment for the F25, what is the recommended distance between each driver? Is 4-6" apart okay?
post #7187 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Thanks for the GTG report Dave. It reminds me of the wise old adage "Horses for courses". The testimonials for the 18" drivers and subs almost always cite movies as the sound source. Slamming doors, gun shots, maybe dinosaurs stomping around (!). At theatre SPL. That means NOTHING to me. A driver or sub that excels at that task may or may not excel at playing music. Yeah, I know.....sound is sound, bla bla bla. No. Playing music in tandem with the speakers a sub / subs is mated with is a more subtle, refined quality. To make the speakers sound more full-range without calling attention to itself, to reveal the tone and texture of a 1750 German 3/4 Bass, to reproduce the swing of an excellent Jump Blues Band.....these abilities are an entirely different thing from producing the sound effects of a movie. Can a sub be designed to do both without compromizing one for the other? In any human endevour involving opposing requirements, that is a rare thing indeed. It is almost always either a sword, or a rapier. Not both. I have no doubt that owners of the monster subs will assure us that theirs can do both. Depends on how high your standards are, right? What I value in and require of any speaker, including a sub, has much more to do with delicacy that brute force. I'll say it again.....a Cadillac Escalade can't do what a Ferrari can. And visa versa. But we all want both, right?!

GTG is more a social event. People want to have fun. I have been to a few of similar events and honestly even myself would turn up the sub just to show the sub was there, even though that is not how I would enjoy it at home. One attendee finally approached and told me I have run the sub too hot. But there was definitely some pressure prompting me and others to do that. If you read it closely, sub run at 8db hotter at GTG. On the other hand, what I am more interested in the FR plots.

Reljetavenger, I have a question abou the E15 FR. It seems to be cut at around 70hz. Is that the minidsp EQ engaged? I am puzzled by it.
Edited by Rythmik - 10/24/12 at 8:21am
post #7188 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by nith View Post

Brian,
The driver alignment for the F25, what is the recommended distance between each driver? Is 4-6" apart okay?

Nith, it is ok.
post #7189 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

GTG is more a social event. People want to have fun. I have been to a few of similar events and honestly even myself would turn up the sub just to show the sub was there, even though that is not how I would enjoy it at home. One attendee finally approached and told me I have run the sub too hot. But there was definitely some pressure prompting me and others to do that. If you read it closely, sub run at 8db hotter at GTG. On the other hand, what I am more interested in the FR plots.
Reljetavenger, I have a question abou the E15 FR. It seems to be cut at around 70hz. Is that the minidsp EQ engaged? I am puzzled by it.

I had the PEQ on. In hindsight, I wish I had left it off, especially after listening to Dstews FV15HP with it off.
Since we were not using any EQ save for level matching at a single frequency for all subs, it seemed to be the smart thing to do, let the sub's PEQ go to work. However, it is clear to me I should not have run it that way, mainly because I do not have that much experience with it and all of the settings offered (at home use XT32/sub eq). And we really did not have the time to spend dialing it in right, what with all the other subs there. For the music clips, it sounded great/blended well with the speakers. But for the movie clips, it was not delivering what I know it is capable of. The FR chart tells part of the story. For the movie clips where you get that hit in the gut, it wasn't there. But I know it is there. It was very frustrating and I kept telling everyone not to blame the sub for the performance, that it is more capable than it showed at the GTG. It was user error, not the subs fault.

For reference, with the PEQ on, Gain at 0, Bandwidth at MIN, FREQ (I cannot remember where this was set)
Phase at 0, Crossover at 100, Level at about the 2 o'clock position
Low pass ext/12, rumble filter off, Extension filter: Freq 14, Damping Hi.
(Didn't realize at the time I set it/should not have used that low pass setting)
Edited by realjetavenger - 10/24/12 at 5:25pm
post #7190 of 15240
Ok...here's another what to buy post. Long time lurker, but have been away for a while due to lack of disposable income.

I'm on the fence. FV15HP or F15HP. Current system originally centered around music and now includes home theater. I'm probably 60% 2 channel 40% movies. Martin Logan Ascents as mains. Room is a finished basement, fairly large, my man cave is off in the corner. I think I calculated +6000ft3, I need to double check, but that's the entire basement. My space is roughly 14 x 22 and open to the rest of the basement. I can post a drawing tomorrow, if it helps. I need some low end umph. I'm concerned that the F15HP will not have the output for the room size and/or that the ported sound of the FV15HP will not match well with my Ascents. My choice changes from day to day. I settle on one and then change my mind. The next day it changes back. Any advice?
post #7191 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruppy View Post

Ok...here's another what to buy post. Long time lurker, but have been away for a while due to lack of disposable income.
I'm on the fence. FV15HP or F15HP. Current system originally centered around music and now includes home theater. I'm probably 60% 2 channel 40% movies. Martin Logan Ascents as mains. Room is a finished basement, fairly large, my man cave is off in the corner. I think I calculated +6000ft3, I need to double check, but that's the entire basement. My space is roughly 14 x 22 and open to the rest of the basement. I can post a drawing tomorrow, if it helps. I need some low end umph. I'm concerned that the F15HP will not have the output for the room size and/or that the ported sound of the FV15HP will not match well with my Ascents. My choice changes from day to day. I settle on one and then change my mind. The next day it changes back. Any advice?

I will say for majority customers, the difference between FV15HP and F15HP is insignificant. If that applies to you, then the next consideration is output in a large room. A lot of our FV15HP customers use their FV15HP for music (either 2 ch or multi-ch video). I even had a customer (Kevin A. in our review web page) that he had a habit of "upgrading" sub every two years and he settled on FV15HP for more than 2 years now. If you want FV15HP to sound as close as F15HP, use 1 port mode and 14hz/high damping.
post #7192 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by realjetavenger View Post

For the movie clips where you get that hit in the gut, it wasn't there. But I know it is there. It was very frustrating and I kept telling everyone not to blame the sub for the performance, that it is more capable than it showed at the GTG. It was user error, not the subs fault.

It is the format of the GTG setup. If you had placed the sub in the corner, then the output for sure will be higher. There is a bar for everyone. Once you pass that bar, then the extra is headroom. Playing too loud can get us reach for ear plugs. I still think in a reasonable size room and with corner placement (instead of mid wall placement), E15 can reach that bar for most customers.
Quote:
For reference, with the PEQ on, Gain at 0, Bandwidth at MIN, FREQ (I cannot remember where this was set)
Phase at 0, Crossover at 100, Level at about the 2 o'clock position
Low pass ext/12, rumble filter off, Extension filter: Freq 14, Damping Hi.
(Didn't realize at the time I set it/should not have used that low pass setting)

This is the right setting except PEQ on. When I looked at the frequency response E15 is the 2nd flattest (next to Submerssive). If one wants to play loud, he can use 14hz/low damping or 20hz/low damping. The main reason the "umf" effect is not at the very low notes. Anything below 20hz will be felt like air movement around us. If there is anything heard, it will be the harmonic distortion and the residual noise. Sometimges you can almost count the number of cycles in your head. It is more reasonable to trade-off sub 20hz for outputs at more audible band (such as 30hz or even higher). Loud 30hz signal can also shake our pants. 14hz/high damping should be used together with corner loading. Don't feel bad about the result.
Edited by Rythmik - 10/26/12 at 5:34am
post #7193 of 15240
The E15 sounded great in my opinion. I really liked the way it sounded especially for music and I felt it was superior in the music section to the HSU ULS15 and the PSA15 ---though those two subs do cost less.

Personally I liked the FV15HP a bit more than the E15 ---- but the E15 sounded great too.

The Rythmik subs went up a notch in my personal recommendation list after this last meet.



however ----

BDP24 you need to go to a subwoofer meet. 18" subs don't lose anything in the sound quality arena to even a 10" subwoofer. A 20hz note means the subwoofer moves 20 cycles per second. A 10", 12" 15" and 18" subwoofer must all move 20 cycles per second to make that note. What the big drivers do gain is significantly more air displacement capability -- which leads to more of what you like at greater SPL. The 18" subs we were auditioning at the meet, were not the typical mobile DJ PA low cost subwoofers with undersized magnets, low excursion capability, and the inability to produce frequencies below 35 hz that most people are familiar with. The Caps and Submersives are very well designed units, if you are willing to pay the cost increment, they are certainly not something to be written off.
post #7194 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

The E15 sounded great in my opinion. I really liked the way it sounded especially for music and I felt it was superior in the music section to the HSU ULS15 and the PSA15 ---though those two subs do cost less.
Personally I liked the FV15HP a bit more than the E15 ---- but the E15 sounded great too.
The Rythmik subs went up a notch in my personal recommendation list after this last meet.

The fact the you prefer FV15HP to E15 already says about your preference. You may think FV15HP is the easy choice for everyone. But in reality, it is not. Even in FV15HP, I pefer the high damping mode, even though Dave used low damping setting under my recommendation just to play loud and to please some attendees. But I was concerned it was gonna be boomy in music for others.
Quote:

however ----
BDP24 you need to go to a subwoofer meet. 18" subs don't lose anything in the sound quality arena to even a 10" subwoofer. A 20hz note means the subwoofer moves 20 cycles per second. A 10", 12" 15" and 18" subwoofer must all move 20 cycles per second to make that note. What the big drivers do gain is significantly more air displacement capability -- which leads to more of what you like at greater SPL. The 18" subs we were auditioning at the meet, were not the typical mobile DJ PA low cost subwoofers with undersized magnets, low excursion capability, and the inability to produce frequencies below 35 hz that most people are familiar with. The Caps and Submersives are very well designed units, if you are willing to pay the cost increment, they are certainly not something to be written off.

A lot of these has to do with personal experience. If you want to really hear subtle difference in sound, the best place to go is high-end audio show such as CES. There are over 100 rooms set up to their best condition. They are from all over the world, not just US. I remember one time someone made a comment that those shows are meant for older generations. This is probably true because those in the car audio section of the same CES show are definitely younger wink.gif
Edited by Rythmik - 10/26/12 at 6:16am
post #7195 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

18" subs don't lose anything in the sound quality arena to even a 10" subwoofer. A 20hz note means the subwoofer moves 20 cycles per second. A 10", 12" 15" and 18" subwoofer must all move 20 cycles per second to make that note.

According to that logic all drivers have the exact same accuracy. No. It doesn't matter if they are all moving 20 cycles per second, what matters is how quickly the driver is able to reverse direction while making those cycles, and then come to a complete stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

What the big drivers do gain is significantly more air displacement capability -- which leads to more of what you like at greater SPL..

The diameter of the driver has only a little bearing on air movement. There are quite a few 13" and 15" drivers out there that can move considerably more air than a good number of 18" drivers.

To BDP24:
In both cases, one really needs to look at the Thiele/Small parameters to get a good idea of a driver's accuracy and air displacement. T/S parameters, signal strength and enclosure specs will tell you a whole lot more than say, going to a subwoofer gtg and sitting with a sub for a mere 30-60 minutes of listening. As Brian mentioned, something as simple as not locating the sub properly can completely mask what the sub is actually capable of. That makes any listening impressions from that 30-60 minutes pretty much useless. wink.gif
post #7196 of 15240
They have better "Sales Personnel" too..biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

This is probably true because those in the car audio section of the same CES show are definitely younger wink.gif
post #7197 of 15240
Well my F15HP (550PEQ) is on the way!

Will be some time I can properly use it (still buying the rest of the stuff, need to throw cables, etc) but so far I'm excited and crossing my fingers so it arrives soon biggrin.gif
post #7198 of 15240
I'm looking to purchase a Rythmik sub, but I can't decide if I want to go sealed or ported.

I'm looking at the F15 or the FV15. I'm about 50/50 music and movies, but the audio quality on the music is more important to me. I want a sub that sounds great for 2.1 music and digs deep enough for home theater use as well. I almost never listen at or even near reference volume.

I'm looking at the specs on each and having trouble figuring out how deep each sub can go.
post #7199 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldemar View Post

Hi,
I will be buying an F15HP and wanted to ask what about sub break-in.
I have read about people using "special cds" that carry some music/noises to break-in the whole system. Also people saying to just play music/movies as usual and that's it.
How loud should I play while breaking in? Should I restrain myself the first (10?) hours and play quiet, then increase the volume over time?
Is there something I should avoid? (huge explosions, loud tones, etc)
So far I know to not play the test tones or other constant high-volume sound, as this will heat the coils and possibly damage something.
Should I give it some cool down time?
eg. play 1 hour of music, then stop/turn off for 15min, then play again...
Oh and a more Rythmik specific question:
What settings should I use on the PEQ while breaking-in? low damping? 14Hz?
Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

These things don't require much break in. Most of the break in is done within the first few minutes. Maybe re-eq or calibrate a few weeks down the road. These aren't small block Chevy motors with flat tappet cams. Bob Crites says everything is done within 30 seconds, and within a second or two for tweeters.
Jonathan, you may choose to believe what you want, but it actually takes quite awhile for complete run in.

Whilst it's trues that capacitors will form within a few minutes, sub-woofer surrounds are a different matter entirely. My F12SE arrived in January, but it wasn't fully run in until April or May,

Oldemar, just use your new sub normally and avoid extremes (such as WOTW at reference levels) for a few weeks and it will be fine.
post #7200 of 15240
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

I'm looking to purchase a Rythmik sub, but I can't decide if I want to go sealed or ported.
I'm looking at the F15 or the FV15. I'm about 50/50 music and movies, but the audio quality on the music is more important to me. I want a sub that sounds great for 2.1 music and digs deep enough for home theater use as well. I almost never listen at or even near reference volume.
I'm looking at the specs on each and having trouble figuring out how deep each sub can go.

I have a FV15 and it is one amazing sub. It is big though, just a warning, but, in my case, blended in with my EQ. I play music (Pandora mostly and some SACD's)and of course movies blow me away and it sounds excellent with both. I too was looking at the F15 and I'm sure you will be very happy with that as well. The F15 will satisfy both your needs, and it's several hundred lower in price!

Jeff
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