Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 242

Brian, the simple fact is many times people have zero qualifications or education in a field and don't really know squat, but claim knowledge or expertise.
I think many times it has something to do with simple arrogance and conceit.

I personally am a believer in your knowledge, product and customer service. And I am not alone.
Not everyone will understand.....its just that simple. There will always be a few naysayers, skeptics, and "experts".

Just keep on doing what your doing......many of us take great joy in it :-)

Excellent answer! Thanks for your thoughts.

I think she was referring more to BD24's esoteric preferences and misunderstanding of the recent subwoofer GTG, rather than anything in regards to Rythmik or its servo tech.

On another note I am really curious to the performance differences and increases that will be present with the HX800 F25 and the potential HP version down the road.

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 11/3/12 at 2:03pm

+1!

HE is a SHE actually........SHE has made references in the past to Rythmik technology as "snake oil". Not the first time. Being SHE is an "expert" maybe we could see/read right here a bit of detailed factual data or basis for SHE implied innuendo.

Sheesh, I apologize for not knowing the post history of every individual or their gender. Also it is fairly common practice in English to use 'he' as gender neutral. It just seemed to me it was directed towards the "Tube amps rock more than 'non-audiophile' quality SS amps" aspect of his comment.

To be clear I have a DS15 kit I am very happy with but would like to upgrade down the road to something with a bit more impact in the lower bass regions. After all the talk in one thread about sub 20hz content and desiring more oomph I am really curious about the new F25; I am conflicted on building a ported sub or staying sealed and the F25 may fulfill my desire for deeper and louder with concern to bottoming out the sub.

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 11/3/12 at 2:08pm

I thought he was too, KMFD. Hey, when did music become esoteric? I really don't think I misunderstood the recent GTG, or past ones. The vast majority of comments about the subs was from using movies as source material, and the main consideration seemed to me to be about the maximum SPL each sub was capable of producing. Am I mistaken, or misunderstand? I do realize that most people looking into subs these days are putting them into HT set-ups, and I realize that putting a sub or four into a music-only system to reproduce Baroque and Bluegrass music could be viewed as esoteric (actually, typing that out makes it sound funny to ME), but what else can an owner of Quad Electrostatic Loudspeakers do? They NEED subs!

I like your username.

Now I'm confused. Who is he? And who is she?! Oh, she is Theresa. And tube amps DO, uh, rock. Dude.
Edited by BDP24 - 11/3/12 at 2:18pm

BDP24, as far as I understood the criteria for the recent subwoofer showdown was not solely prodigious output, in particular the subsonic regions, but clean accuracy as well, which translates to great performance for both music and movie content. Just happens to be typically most music content does not reach that low whereas a few movie titles do have material well below 20hz or 10hz..

Definitely agree that accuracy is more important than bloated loud one notes subs, ala some car subwoofers, but there are some subs that are nimble enough to produce really deep notes with significant output and still be articulate for higher bass content.

Personally find tube amps to be excessively overrated, along with vinyl, they do not sound nor perform better than quality SS amps; especially when factoring efficiency, provided power, size and weight, etc . However due to the limited abilities of vinyl it forces audio engineers to be more sensible with compressors and limiters for audio mixing, such as they cannot permit clipping which unfortunately is all to frequently done in the digital realm. CD quality with properly mixed content will always trounce the best vinyl version, but if the mixed is cooked for the digital release then things sway the other way.

When I commented on esoteric I was referring to the tubs vs SS amps aspect rather than having music being included criteria for evaluating subs or if I understand correctly that you are going to be adding 4 F25s to your system. If so I am quite jealous even if it is primarily for music. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show) Why thank you. I enjoy both groups, it is important to have a diverse palette. ;}

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 11/3/12 at 2:52pm

Now if Konietzko could read the above paragraph and maybe turn down the compression a bit, the WWIII stuff and onward are pretty damn loud!

He has gone absolutely nuts with compression and clipping/hard limiting. The remasters really are travesty and missed opportunity. Xtort was their last well balanced mix, Symbols is good but average dynamic range falls under 10dbs. I find that overall average dynamic range should be at a minimum 12db and more, I typically really enjoy albums that are mixed around 15-25db or more with no hard limiting or clipping.

Aside note: Krank (Käptn' K Mix) is probably the most dynamic and distortion free KMFDM release in recent memory.

The original release of Angst has a few tracks I like to use for demoing speakers and subs. Specifically The Problem because of the electric organ and that phat bass drum for bass evaluation as well for mid and high end with the female vocals and Sasha's; also like Move On and Glory for sub evaluations.

I evidently have the original PEQ amp even though I opted for the DS1505 driver for the extra upper 10hz and solid woofer, I do wonder if the 90hz crossover is taking away a bit from the upper bass even though it is crossovered at 80hz in my receiver.

I highly recommend picking up Enya's first three albums for speaker and subwoofer evaluations. The Enya aka (The Celts) album is really a lot of fun to listen to both for dynamics and deep clean bass.

Best Regards
KvE
Edited by KMFDMvsEnya - 11/3/12 at 3:19pm

Archaea's contributions to this forum are vast. He has put forth a great deal of time documenting his experiences to help others which is very generous and I greatly appreciate it. Clearly he enjoys this hobby a great deal, but he goes out of his way and spends his own time to help others as well; super classy. He has listened to more subwoofers than the vast majority of us, dare I guess 90% - 98% of the forum members and 99.9% of the general population?

Read his reviews, he is one of the few folks that I believe stays vendor unbiased. He discusses the product's performance and could care less about the label on it. His subwoofer recommendations thread per price point is a great and valuable contribution.

At the GTG and in his posts his knowledge is readily apparent. He was able to notice, point out, and help me hear some subtle keys to listen for. For example changes in dynamics as volume increased (prolly not so subtle but still important) he noted, commented on, measured, discussed, and documented for us. He was kind enough to capture the graphs, interpret them, and answer questions about them in the GTG thread.

Ohhh, and he happens to also be a very enjoyable nice fella; you could do a lot worse then hang with him for a day listening to high end systems.

Archaea's contributions to this thread adds to its value and enjoyment. I for one hope he sticks around. The bickering lately has not been very enjoyable for me though.

Rythmik for me is the exact opposite of snake oil. Very high performance, very high quality, very high value.
Edited by dstew100 - 11/4/12 at 1:59am

He mentions in a previous post why he is here. He is interested in the rhythmik's after hearing one at a GTG. Why be a jerk?

For sub demo, I really like songs with clear low bass guitar, with string sounds and decay. In particular, I like Isis - "20 minutes / 40 years". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS3NkhjsBf0 Just after the ambient intro you hear some bass notes, in which some subwoofers are very poor at playing clearly, while others are very good at.

My old Klipsch Sub 12 could not play that intro well. In my Jeep Rubicon it has a factory Infinity (Harmon Kardon) soundsystem with an 8" sealed sub. It reproduced the bass very very well, very clear. When I first was introduced to Rythmik, I asked a few members to play that youtube clip, and report back their impressions. Their comments solidified my decision to go with Rythmik. Now that the dedicated theater room is up and running, I've decided to go with an FV15hp. I'm in the tough position of watching blockbuster type movies as well as a lot of live concert footage.

Megadeth's Rust in Peace Live (2010) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTQeZntgjWw&feature=relmfu has really great kick drum sound that lends itself well to a sub that can spl. You can see the kick notes vibrating the camera on some of the zoomed shots, so I could only imagine what it felt like in that Venue.
Edited by jonathanc - 11/3/12 at 4:50pm

Yeah, I realized that you were referring to the tube comment rather than music after it was too late. As for tubes vs. SS, there are good, not so good, and great of both types. In discovering this world of internet reporting of product evaluation by enthusiasts, I was just surprised to find a lot of people spending pretty big bucks on subs, but using receivers as their pre-amp and power amp for their main speaker's. As one coming to this world of HT systems from the traditional 2-channel music reproduction world (okay, Audiophiles, if you insist), where receivers are practically unheard of (nothing personal guys!), the budgeting in HT systems appears out-of-balance. After all, speakers can only reproduce the signal quality they are fed. Separate pre-amps and power-amps is what I've grown accustomed to seeing in music-based (no pun intended!) Audiophile systems, that's all. And not necessarily tubes, either. In my case, however, there is an amp made (Output Transformerless, Class A operation, fully balanced circuitry) that is perfect for my speakers because of how the two mate with each other in terms of impedence matching, power output, etc., and it happens to be a tube amp. I won't get into turntables vs. digital because it's not versus for me. If you have an LP collection of 5000 LP's you need a turntable; if you have 5000 CD's you need a CD player. But I will say that just as everyone here knows that very few civilians :-) have heard a really good sub installed and dialed in with care and knowledge, so too have relatively few people heard a really good turntable, arm, and cartridge expertly set-up. Including perhaps some here!

Yow, 4 F25's! Not me, but that sure sounds like fun. Just as I chose my speakers by the nature of the music I listen to, and my power amp based upon the needs of my speakers, my subs were chosen by the needs and nature of my speakers. Danny Richie and Brian Ding's GR Open Baffle double 12" 16 Ohm opposed-direction drivers per side in W-frames (for now---H-frames to come), each driven by a Rythmik A370XLR2 amp, to augment my Quad Electrostatics (both the speakers and the subs are push/pull dipoles with figure-8 directionality and out-of-phase nulls to each side), and a pair of Rythmik 1510 drivers each driven by an H600XLR2 amp in 4 cu.ft. cabs, to augment the OB's, and for extra demanding musical material such as pipe organs, Symphony Orchestras (which are REALLY loud. Classical musicians, especially those in the brass section, suffer from hearing loss as much as Rock musicians do), and the occasional AC/DC. Works for me!
Edited by BDP24 - 11/7/12 at 10:59pm

when is the new FV12 going to be available? I need a sub within the next few weeks but was thinking to hold out for this or any special on black friday.
thanks
mike

Well Brian, unlike the "snake oil" of the past, your brand of "snake oil" works perfectly!!! The next test of that will be Led Zeppelins Celebration Day!!

Jeff

I own the FV15HP in a 15x17 room. I love it and I am very happy with my purchase. I think for the amount of money I spent, it is an incredible value. Thank you for a very good product.

+1

EDIT: Our room dimensions are different. Other than that I stand by my pre-edit post.
Edited by dstew100 - 11/4/12 at 4:50pm

Speaking of Audiophiles.....for those who are familiar with Henry Rollins, he's a hardcore Audiophile who is a customer at the same retailer as I, in Monrovia CA, the shop known for having the best turntable set-up man in the country, Brooks Berdan. Brooks was a customer of mine (who passed away last year at the young age of 56), a collector of Vintage Drums, with which I was happy to provide him. Anyway, Henry has not only a high-end turntable (a VPI, made in New York) purchased from and set-up by Brooks, but his music system also includes a.....tube power amp! What a punk.

Thanks for your comments above, Brian. When looking for a sub, I was faced with a challenging task. People have been trying to mate Subwoofers with Electrostatic Loudspeakers for many years, and failing, most dramatically with Quad Electrotats. That speaker is SO transparent, SO quick, SO uncolored, that any discontinuity between it and a sub was glaringly, immediately obvious. I had heard real good things about Rythmik subs (they have a reputation in the world of Mastering Engineers---the guys who take the master tape and turn it into what CD's, LP's, etc., are manufactured from), and that they were a very unique sub, achieving and offering performance of a kind that makes them unusually adept at reproducing music. I sure hope that everyone realizes just how special the Rythmik's are, and, in the race for the biggest, loudest, most badass subs possible, listeners who would value what they do don't miss them for the noise. The equipment we buy is meant to improve the pleasure we get out of our music, movies, whatever. It's all good!
Edited by BDP24 - 11/4/12 at 8:45pm

Electrostats amd my Magnepans led me to design my own servo sub in the early 80's and more recent purchase of a pair of Rythmiks for my latest system. That and a few talks with Brian, a very sharp guy!

Brian, a very sharp guy!

+1 Don. Brian's way over my head! When I got to college and encountered Trigonometry, Calculus, and other Advanced Mathematics, I learned that THAT was not gonna happen. Music theory is hard enough! So, I guess non-Audiophiles just don't get how unacceptable most subs are in a serious (I don't care for the term High-End. Too snobby.) music system, ay? As I said above, Electrostatic panels (Magneplanars too---the speaker that opened my eyes and ears. It was through them (bi-amped with Audio Research tube amps) that I heard my first "depth of field" imaging---just like looking into the viewfinder of an SLR camera while focussing!) are ruthlessly revealing of how slow, sloppy, heavy-footed---un-nimble!---a given sub is. If it can't be made to blend seamlessly and invisibly with your speakers, NONE of it's other attributes matter. Not flat to 10hz at 120dB with 3% THD, or anything else. That sub is immediately dismissed as unqualified and unsuitable for music reproduction. Period. Making movie sound effects? Sure, throw it in the Home Theatre! :-)

I had my Maggies bi-amped with an ARC tube amp on top and hybrid Counterpoint on the bass panels. I was never really happy with the bass from the pure tube amps I had tried (though they are better now).

I wish I had taken a music theory class as I could use it now to pick notes out of chords whilst playing in various bands. Actually, I tried, but the prof was a cantankerous gentleman who did not want non-music majors in "his" class and kicked out myself and another engineering major. Could have taken it later but time did not permit, alas.

It takes no math to hear the difference in well-behaved bass and the average boomy sound so many seem to favor.

All,

I am thinking about moving back to a dual ported sub setup. I currently have two CHT 18" subs and while I do very much enjoy them, I feel I might prefer a ported sub. That being said, I am not on the hunt for 2 to replace my current setup.

My room is around 4900 cubic feet. I would place my new subs where my current subs are. They are on the screen wall which you can see below.

I am looking at the FV15HPs just because most of my time in the room is spent on movies and some music.

Any thoughts where I should start....?

My first impression was to just ignore the above.....but rarely have I seen a post with such paradoxical content.

"I currently have two CHT 18" subs and while I do very much enjoy them, I feel I might prefer a ported sub. That being said, I am not on the hunt for 2 to replace my current setup. "

If you "very much enjoy" your CHTs, why even post or enquire here? "not on the hunt 2 replace" but appealing for comments or feedback here....."where should I start?"

You must have swallowed copious volumes of the CH kool aid over time, you seem really confused.

Or did you read the latest GTG results and decide to "jump ship"?


My advice to you......take two aspirin and reconsider your path forward in two or three days
Edited by polizzio - 11/5/12 at 4:00pm

"I feel I might prefer a ported sub"

Thats what they call curiosity, as always people could be HAPPIER with a new kick ass sub :-)

You have two 18, I think your on the right track looking into the FV15HP

kaotikr1,

For the cheapest option available to you as a current SS 18.1 owner - - - You might consider just buying a pair of VS cabinets from CHT. He sells empty cabs to which you can just swap your drivers over. Tesseract67 is considering doing the same thing.

As for reading on comparisons between the two box alignments - you can read this thread where the CHT 18.2 was compared to a pair of the VS18 subs by a number of subwoofer meet attendees.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1368326/subfest-2011-huskeromaha-and-desertdomes-subwoofer-showdown/