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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 266

post #7951 of 15139
Brian - any new updates on the redesigned FV12?
post #7952 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLaw612 View Post

Brian - any new updates on the redesigned FV12?


Shhhhh... don't bother him. He's working feverishly to get my sub shipped. biggrin.gif
post #7953 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

I would implore people to not underestimate the effect of being out-of-phase with the mains has on the impact of the bass.. not to mention that auto-calibrations are not always optimal.

I do not have my own calibration equipment so I have to rely on Audysey. Even I were to try an adjust it manually I would not even know what to be listening for.
post #7954 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Hmmm, I may have misinterpreted "I ran Audessey MultEQ. It set my front speakers to large and turned on a setting called double bass. I crossed them over at 80 instead. I tweaked the levels just slightly with a db meter (Audessey got pretty close) and ran the sub about 3 db hotter than the rest."

Definitely respond to Brian / Rythmik reply. They are smarter than me. What are your mains and what is your AVR? I stand by the Klipsh doesn't hold a candle to your sub though.

I didn't explain it very well -- but basically Audyssey said one thing, but I changed it to what I know to be right. Even Audyssey advices to change the speakers from large to small if you run a sub and Audyssey doesn't set a crossover. Either way, I certainly believe you when you say that the Rythmik should outperform the Klipsh -- that's why I bought it smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skerlnik View Post

I, also, have experienced the "lack of output" when you first fire up the sub. After talking to Brian, I am convinced it was just due to the sub not being broken in yet, and the spider/surround needing some exercise. After a day or two, the sub started sounding much better!

I understand... but something is just off. Running the sub at moderate volume levels shouldn't result in flapping/farting sounds from the drivers. There was no sound on major bass hits in music and very little sound on movie effects. It was almost just a background bass drone. I had to put my ear to the drivers at time to make sure it was still on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

I would implore people to not underestimate the effect of being out-of-phase with the mains has on the impact of the bass.. not to mention that auto-calibrations are not always optimal.

I've had some difficulty with Audessey in the past. I ran Audessey, but then calibrated levels by hand with a db meter. I ran the sub with Audessey on and off. It sounded better on, but not by much.



Brian gave me a call today -- just from this thread and a PM (from him). I didn't have to "officially" even contact Rythmik. Despite issues with my sub, customer service so far has been top notch and I'm sure the issue will be resolved.
post #7955 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Brian gave me a call today -- just from this thread and a PM (from him). I didn't have to "officially" even contact Rythmik. Despite issues with my sub, customer service so far has been top notch and I'm sure the issue will be resolved.
From what you have been describing, there seem to be problem with your sub. You will be in good hand as Brian will take care of your issue. With that said, there seem to be a few new Rythmik owners having problem with their new units lately eek.gif I am lucky as my FV15hp worked out of the box and I am still amazed with how it delivers. Honestly I got scared listenning close to -5db with sub 3db hot cool.gif
post #7956 of 15139
Brian is the man! If he ever makes it out to Seattle I'd love to meet him and treat him to lunch. He went waaay above the call of the call of duty with my transaction. When/if I ever get a bigger HT room, I will be ordering another FV15HP.
post #7957 of 15139
Both of my FV15HP's showed up in perfect working order. Sorry for those having issues but Brian has or will get those straight. I know he mentioned before running performance tests on every unit shipped (not just some percentage of the units). I'd think something is going on in shipping.
post #7958 of 15139
@woody777 -- Have you tried a different cable from AVR to sub? is it a humming sound (that may be caused by a ground loop)? A very loud buzz and noise could be a bad cable (among other things).
post #7959 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

@woody777 -- Have you tried a different cable from AVR to sub? is it a humming sound (that may be caused by a ground loop)? A very loud buzz and noise could be a bad cable (among other things).

No hum or buzz of any kind. I haven't tried another cable -- I'll do that tonight. I'm using a brand new cable (not that that necessarily means it can't be at fault) from Monoprice.
post #7960 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jay500000 View Post

I know this may be a Stupid question but I have a question regarding fv15hp mcaac sets the db to -0.5 and the volume on the sub is 3 clicks above 80 I run my sub 6 db hot which is great for movies but not so much for music I listen to a lot of rap is it safe to turn the volume on the sub to 3 a clock or is that dangerous basically I would like to know how loud I can play the sub at?

It is safe if your front speakers are very efficien, or you really like special effect. For music, too much bass may not be a good thing as you have notice. High damping is good for music as it has less ringing. But low damping gives you more full body rumble effect (that does not come and go as fast).
post #7961 of 15139
Hey folks, I'd like to get your opinion on placing a Rythmik F15HP on a hardwood floor. I've heard several people recommend some kind of vibration isolation to decouple the subwoofer from the floor. Of those, there's the "rubber feet" camp, the "isolater pad" camp, and the "spikes on coins" camp. Any thoughts on one over the other?

For rubber feet, I saw these "bench cookies" mentioned and they seem affordable but their vibration isolation properties are unknown as they are not designed for this purpose.

For a platform, the most common recommendation is the Auralex subdude. However, the base of the F15 is 19"x20" and the Subdude is 15"x15". Is it OK (or perhaps even beneficial) to have the sub hang off the edge of the isolation platform, or should I upgrade to the Great Gramma, which is 19"x30"?

Lastly I see a lot of people just using speaker spikes resting on a coin (like a quarter). Thoughts?

Thanks!
post #7962 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyronious View Post

Hey folks, I'd like to get your opinion on placing a Rythmik F15HP on a hardwood floor. I've heard several people recommend some kind of vibration isolation to decouple the subwoofer from the floor. Of those, there's the "rubber feet" camp, the "isolater pad" camp, and the "spikes on coins" camp. Any thoughts on one over the other?

For rubber feet, I saw these "bench cookies" mentioned and they seem affordable but their vibration isolation properties are unknown as they are not designed for this purpose.

For a platform, the most common recommendation is the Auralex subdude. However, the base of the F15 is 19"x20" and the Subdude is 15"x15". Is it OK (or perhaps even beneficial) to have the sub hang off the edge of the isolation platform, or should I upgrade to the Great Gramma, which is 19"x30"?

Lastly I see a lot of people just using speaker spikes resting on a coin (like a quarter). Thoughts?

Thanks!

 

This is what Bill Fitzmaurice has recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Joe-Anti-Fatigue-Beveled-3-Feet/dp/B000EFK9KM/ref=sr_1_12?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1358282258&sr=1-12&keywords=comfort+mats

Inexpensive and effective.

post #7963 of 15139
I prefer isolation (e.g. rubber feet or similar) on a hardwood floor both to reduce energy coupled into the floor (to prevent "walking" subs as well as muddy sound) and prevent damage from spikes. I see no advantage in placing spikes on a coin but I am sure somebody must hear something...
post #7964 of 15139

I asked for rubber feet when I ordered my  fv15hp. It's passing thru Colorado right now and will be here on Monday. I hope!

post #7965 of 15139
The rubber feet provided by Rythmik should be sufficient, however if they do not do enough opt for a rubber mat. No reason to go for anything terribly expensive.

Audioholics has an article that discusses this topic of 'vibration isolators' and the overall verdict is they are unnecessary and in fact can increase vibrations. Spikes can be useful for thick carpets but on hardwood not helpful.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point

Best regards,
KvE
post #7966 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post

I asked for rubber feet when I ordered my  fv15hp. It's passing thru Colorado right now and will be here on Monday. I hope!

Nice Stanley. My XPA-5 gets here Monday also. We will be busy little bees:)
post #7967 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyronious View Post

Hey folks, I'd like to get your opinion on placing a Rythmik F15HP on a hardwood floor. I've heard several people recommend some kind of vibration isolation to decouple the subwoofer from the floor. Of those, there's the "rubber feet" camp, the "isolater pad" camp, and the "spikes on coins" camp. Any thoughts on one over the other?

For rubber feet, I saw these "bench cookies" mentioned and they seem affordable but their vibration isolation properties are unknown as they are not designed for this purpose.

For a platform, the most common recommendation is the Auralex subdude. However, the base of the F15 is 19"x20" and the Subdude is 15"x15". Is it OK (or perhaps even beneficial) to have the sub hang off the edge of the isolation platform, or should I upgrade to the Great Gramma, which is 19"x30"?

Lastly I see a lot of people just using speaker spikes resting on a coin (like a quarter). Thoughts?

Thanks!

I have the Rockler version of the bench cookies, they are a great addition to any woodshop, but I am not sure they would be very effective under a large subwoofer. Basically that center part of the cookie is just a solid piece of plastic, with the 1/4-3/8" of rubber padding on each side (this was found out by an unintentional dissection of one of my cookies by my router :-) . This makes them great for raising up items on the work bench (good grip, good stability), and the do help to isolate some vibrations, but given the thickness of the rubber, mostly in the high frequency range I would imagine (think router). I had looked briefly at the auralex a while ago, and from what I remember, there is much thicker isolation "foam" that is engineered for the bass frequency range. When I finally get around to building my own Rythmik subwoofer, I will probably look at something like that myself.
post #7968 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by K5/SS View Post


Nice Stanley. My XPA-5 gets here Monday also. We will be busy little bees:)

 Awesome. An Emotiva is next on my list. I was going to get a XPA-2 first while they were on sale but they were out of stock at the time so I pulled the trigger on the sub. They still don't have them in stock. Now I'll have to pay full price unless I wait for another sale but who knows when that will be. Oh well.

Congrats on the amp!

post #7969 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyronious View Post

Hey folks, I'd like to get your opinion on placing a Rythmik F15HP on a hardwood floor. I've heard several people recommend some kind of vibration isolation to decouple the subwoofer from the floor. Of those, there's the "rubber feet" camp, the "isolater pad" camp, and the "spikes on coins" camp. Any thoughts on one over the other?

For rubber feet, I saw these "bench cookies" mentioned and they seem affordable but their vibration isolation properties are unknown as they are not designed for this purpose.

For a platform, the most common recommendation is the Auralex subdude. However, the base of the F15 is 19"x20" and the Subdude is 15"x15". Is it OK (or perhaps even beneficial) to have the sub hang off the edge of the isolation platform, or should I upgrade to the Great Gramma, which is 19"x30"?

Lastly I see a lot of people just using speaker spikes resting on a coin (like a quarter). Thoughts?

Thanks!

I have wood floors also. I bought the Auralex Great Gramma for my fv15hp and it works really well. The sub fits perfectly on it.
post #7970 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by XStanleyX View Post

This is what Bill Fitzmaurice has recommended: http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Joe-Anti-Fatigue-Beveled-3-Feet/dp/B000EFK9KM/ref=sr_1_12?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1358282258&sr=1-12&keywords=comfort+mats

Inexpensive and effective.
It's all you need, assuming you need anything. Next to high priced cables and power conditioners isolation pads and spikes are the biggest scams in audio. The following quoted claims are taken straight from the websites of manufacturers of these devices:

The Isolation Claim: ‘Its purpose is to prevent sound from transmitting through your subwoofer to surrounding surfaces. Subwoofers create big vibrations (low frequencies) that you can feel in the floor and in objects placed nearby. When the source of the vibrations is coupled directly to the floor it causes these objects to vibrate or resonate…’

The Truth: The source of these vibrations is the movement of the driver cone. The claim would only be true if you coupled the driver cone to the floor. If the cabinet panels vibrate enough to cause the floor to vibrate the speaker is defective.

The Decoupling Claim: ‘Isolators for your speakers…will decouple your speakers from the surface they rest upon, resulting in a more pure, accurate tone. Low frequencies will be projected and will no longer lack the definition you desire. Mid and high frequencies will be crisp and intelligible. Rattles and resonances will be a thing of the past.’

The Spike Claim: ‘By rigidly coupling a loudspeaker enclosure to a floor by means of a spiking system, it is possible to dramatically improve clarity, stereo imaging and bass response. This is very apparent with subwoofer systems.’

The Quandary: These sources claim the same benefits from coupling and from decoupling. Who’s telling the truth?

The Truth: Both are lying. Isolation and coupling makes no difference. To test this I measured the response of my THT and my David with the test mic in the room, in the next room, and in the room below, with the cabinet sitting on the carpeted floor, on four inches of high density acoustic foam, on rubber feet and on spikes. I’d post the measured results for each set of comparisons, but there would be no point. In each case the measured responses of the four options were identical.
Note that this was on a carpeted floor. There may be some slight benefits to isolation devices or rubber feet on a bare floor, or on a bare shelf or stand. But you never want a bare floor, it’s an acoustical nightmare. If you only have area rugs in your listening room stick a piece of felt carpet padding, a carpet scrap or rubber feet under your speaker. If you're using bookshelves on a bare shelf or stand small rubber feet or felt pads are all you need to prevent spurious vibrations.

The Endorser Claim: ‘I tried them and they work, I know what I’m hearing!’

The Truth: The first thing you learn in an acoustical engineering course is that you don’t know what you’re hearing. If you did you’d be able to listen to a speaker, take pencil and graph paper in hand, and draw a frequency response chart, THD chart and waterfall plot, all with 1/24 octave resolution and 1/10dB accuracy. Our ears just aren’t that good, not by a very wide margin. But our imagination works very well, and that clouds our audio judgment, leading to placebo effect. In short, if you think something will make a difference in the sound, it will.

For an in depth examination of why we really don’t know what we’re hearing check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
post #7971 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's all you need, assuming you need anything. Next to high priced cables and power conditioners isolation pads and spikes are the biggest scams in audio. The following quoted claims are taken straight from the websites of manufacturers of these devices:

The Isolation Claim: ‘Its purpose is to prevent sound from transmitting through your subwoofer to surrounding surfaces. Subwoofers create big vibrations (low frequencies) that you can feel in the floor and in objects placed nearby. When the source of the vibrations is coupled directly to the floor it causes these objects to vibrate or resonate…’

The Truth: The source of these vibrations is the movement of the driver cone. The claim would only be true if you coupled the driver cone to the floor. If the cabinet panels vibrate enough to cause the floor to vibrate the speaker is defective.

The Decoupling Claim: ‘Isolators for your speakers…will decouple your speakers from the surface they rest upon, resulting in a more pure, accurate tone. Low frequencies will be projected and will no longer lack the definition you desire. Mid and high frequencies will be crisp and intelligible. Rattles and resonances will be a thing of the past.’

The Spike Claim: ‘By rigidly coupling a loudspeaker enclosure to a floor by means of a spiking system, it is possible to dramatically improve clarity, stereo imaging and bass response. This is very apparent with subwoofer systems.’

The Quandary: These sources claim the same benefits from coupling and from decoupling. Who’s telling the truth?

The Truth: Both are lying. Isolation and coupling makes no difference. To test this I measured the response of my THT and my David with the test mic in the room, in the next room, and in the room below, with the cabinet sitting on the carpeted floor, on four inches of high density acoustic foam, on rubber feet and on spikes. I’d post the measured results for each set of comparisons, but there would be no point. In each case the measured responses of the four options were identical.
Note that this was on a carpeted floor. There may be some slight benefits to isolation devices or rubber feet on a bare floor, or on a bare shelf or stand. But you never want a bare floor, it’s an acoustical nightmare. If you only have area rugs in your listening room stick a piece of felt carpet padding, a carpet scrap or rubber feet under your speaker. If you're using bookshelves on a bare shelf or stand small rubber feet or felt pads are all you need to prevent spurious vibrations.

The Endorser Claim: ‘I tried them and they work, I know what I’m hearing!’

The Truth: The first thing you learn in an acoustical engineering course is that you don’t know what you’re hearing. If you did you’d be able to listen to a speaker, take pencil and graph paper in hand, and draw a frequency response chart, THD chart and waterfall plot, all with 1/24 octave resolution and 1/10dB accuracy. Our ears just aren’t that good, not by a very wide margin. But our imagination works very well, and that clouds our audio judgment, leading to placebo effect. In short, if you think something will make a difference in the sound, it will.

For an in depth examination of why we really don’t know what we’re hearing check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

+1 Great post!
post #7972 of 15139
I like rubber feet because they keep the sub from moving on the floor since most cabinets do vibrate a little in response to cone movement. They also protect the cabinet from a spill on the floor. smile.gif

The only time I have measured the impact of feet on speakers was ages ago at a store I worked at in the 1980's. The step/impulse response was better (on a 'scope, using a measurement microphone and preamp) with spikes through the carpet to the concrete floor beneath than with the speakers (Magnepan and B&W IIRC) just sitting on the carpet. We convinced ourselves we could hear the difference; however, the difference was not heard in a few blind and DBT runs (no better than 50-50 right answers among the group we tried). There was a slight bias towards positive with the Magnepans but I was never sure it really mattered in the real world.
post #7973 of 15139
My gloss FV15HP is just sitting directly on the carpet and it doesn't move at all. I have the rubber feet for it but they are still in the box.
post #7974 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post


The only time I have measured the impact of feet on speakers was ages ago at a store I worked at in the 1980's. The step/impulse response was better (on a 'scope, using a measurement microphone and preamp) with spikes through the carpet to the concrete floor beneath than with the speakers (Magnepan and B&W IIRC) just sitting on the carpet.
Newton's Third Law of Motion will not be denied. If the speaker isn't heavy enough to resist moving in opposite reaction to the cones moving spikes or feet can reduce or eliminate that movement. Energy expended moving the speaker back and forth is energy not converted into sound, so you can measure a difference between a speaker that moves and one that doesn't. Whether you can hear it or not is a different story, as even inexpensive measurement gear is no less than ten times as sensitive as your ears are.
post #7975 of 15139
I'm undecided between subs and number of subs. I play moslty home theater but also music and am fussy on music reproduction. My room is 14 x 18 x 8 ft and my mains are PSB stratus gold fed by oppo95 direct to Bryston 3BST (very SPL capable combo), with Lexicon (bryston) 5ch for surround channels, no pre/pro. I play very loud music and movies and need good output. My current sub is corner loaded Hsu vtf-3mk2 and it's output hasn't failed but I have turned down the volume in load bass heavy scenes to be safe, I feel I'm pushing the spl limit. My bass response is quite uneven and I'm considering 2 subs to help fill nulls (I sit near one - length wise in room mains are 3' off front wall and I sit about 1/3 off rear wall, gives best music this way). I find the Hsu a bit boomy currently but much trial hasn;t found an even spot for it including moving seat a bit.
For single sub I'm drawn to the FV15HP but am concerned I'll still need 2 to even out the bass and adding a second is more than I want to pay. So I'm considering trying the F15 first then adding a second if needed but I'm concerned about volume for those (would probably go middle of front and back walls if I got two). My room is dedicated and sub size is not important. I hope the F15 or FV15HP will help me even out bass with the PEQ and would like to start with one unit.
I live in Canada near border and would ship to Maine but I don't want to be hit with shipping for the 30 day trial... can I expect to be happy and have headroom for the F15 (370PEQ)?
Also, is there any sound or performance difference if saving $100 with the 550PEQ3 on the FV15HP? And if I got this now and added a 2nd FV15HP with the 600PEQ3 (say no 550 left) would there be any issue matching them? I've seen a few amp issues posted lately, are these the 550 or 600W amps - please post if you're one of those with amp issues.

Lastly, can anyone compare the Hsu vtf3mk2 (same as current vtf2 but with 50W more amp) compared with the F15 370PEQ3 for SPL?
thanks.
post #7976 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I like rubber feet because they keep the sub from moving on the floor since most cabinets do vibrate a little in response to cone movement. They also protect the cabinet from a spill on the floor. smile.gif.

And from the moisture released from the concrete. I had a plastic mat under my chair over wood floor then over concrete. I know people say the concrete will release moisture. But what is the proof? After 5 years of not ever moving the plastic mat, my hard floor turn black and it is sticky when I for the first time moved the mat. The wood is not destroyed, but clearly discolored.
post #7977 of 15139
Yes concrete "sweats", due to air temperature variance creating moisture on the cooler wall/floor surface.
post #7978 of 15139
I use F15 for music and I am very happy. Shipping it back to Rythmik, it might just be cheaper to sell it locally as its already in Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

I'm undecided between subs and number of subs. I play moslty home theater but also music and am fussy on music reproduction. My room is 14 x 18 x 8 ft and my mains are PSB stratus gold fed by oppo95 direct to Bryston 3BST (very SPL capable combo), with Lexicon (bryston) 5ch for surround channels, no pre/pro. I play very loud music and movies and need good output. My current sub is corner loaded Hsu vtf-3mk2 and it's output hasn't failed but I have turned down the volume in load bass heavy scenes to be safe, I feel I'm pushing the spl limit. My bass response is quite uneven and I'm considering 2 subs to help fill nulls (I sit near one - length wise in room mains are 3' off front wall and I sit about 1/3 off rear wall, gives best music this way). I find the Hsu a bit boomy currently but much trial hasn;t found an even spot for it including moving seat a bit.
For single sub I'm drawn to the FV15HP but am concerned I'll still need 2 to even out the bass and adding a second is more than I want to pay. So I'm considering trying the F15 first then adding a second if needed but I'm concerned about volume for those (would probably go middle of front and back walls if I got two). My room is dedicated and sub size is not important. I hope the F15 or FV15HP will help me even out bass with the PEQ and would like to start with one unit.
I live in Canada near border and would ship to Maine but I don't want to be hit with shipping for the 30 day trial... can I expect to be happy and have headroom for the F15 (370PEQ)?
Also, is there any sound or performance difference if saving $100 with the 550PEQ3 on the FV15HP? And if I got this now and added a 2nd FV15HP with the 600PEQ3 (say no 550 left) would there be any issue matching them? I've seen a few amp issues posted lately, are these the 550 or 600W amps - please post if you're one of those with amp issues.

Lastly, can anyone compare the Hsu vtf3mk2 (same as current vtf2 but with 50W more amp) compared with the F15 370PEQ3 for SPL?
thanks.
post #7979 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Next to high priced cables and power conditioners isolation pads and spikes are the biggest scams in audio. The following quoted claims are taken straight from the websites of manufacturers of these devices:

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I recently went to a local audio society meeting and the theme of the meeting was "tweaks". Lots of different devices were demoed and I am convinced they were all snake oil. I'll probably just use the rubber feet that come with the subwoofer. Thanks!
post #7980 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


The Isolation Claim: ‘Its purpose is to prevent sound from transmitting through your subwoofer to surrounding surfaces. Subwoofers create big vibrations (low frequencies) that you can feel in the floor and in objects placed nearby. When the source of the vibrations is coupled directly to the floor it causes these objects to vibrate or resonate…’

The Truth: The source of these vibrations is the movement of the driver cone. The claim would only be true if you coupled the driver cone to the floor. If the cabinet panels vibrate enough to cause the floor to vibrate the speaker is defective.

 

Interesting. This is the first rebuttal I've heard regarding the benefit of isolation pads.

 

Cabinet panels do vibrate...I guess it's a question of how much they impact the floor.

 

For example: If you put 4 'feet' on the top of your subwoofer, and then placed a large container of water on top of those feet and then played bass heavy content, you will get movement of the water. Now if you put an isolation pad on top of the feet, and then the large container on top of the isolation pad, you should get less movement of the water, correct? The isolation pad will reduce vibration to the container of water because of the increased surface area and vibration absorbing material of the isolation pad?

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