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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 270

post #8071 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

Yeah, like I said I could be completely off base with my assumption, but that is what made most sense to me. biggrin.gif

I'm not knocking your comment. I'm just having fun with the clarity of it all. tongue.gif
post #8072 of 15160
AFAIK the lfe input typically bypasses the sub's own crossover. That means you are not rolling off (low passing) the sub twice. Generally I think it preferable not to change the crossover region by adding rolloff, if the added rolloff is in the passband of the crossover. All of which means nothing in a music vs movies context unless you like your music to have an undefined level reduction somewhere in the bass range.

But Bill Fitzmaurice, whose opinions I value, is of the opinion that stacking the receiver and sub low pass filters can avoid localization issues with little penalty. Which stil has zip to do with movies vs music.
post #8073 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm not knocking your comment. I'm just having fun with the clarity of it all. tongue.gif

I figured as much. At least it will be fun to see the way other people interpret it.
post #8074 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

AFAIK the lfe input typically bypasses the sub's own crossover. That means you are not rolling off (low passing) the sub twice. Generally I think it preferable not to change the crossover region by adding rolloff, if the added rolloff is in the passband of the crossover. All of which means nothing in a music vs movies context unless you like your music to have an undefined level reduction somewhere in the bass range.

But Bill Fitzmaurice, whose opinions I value, is of the opinion that stacking the receiver and sub low pass filters can avoid localization issues with little penalty. Which stil has zip to do with movies vs music.

Hopefully Brian will chime and clear this up for us.
post #8075 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

I figured as much. At least it will be fun to see the way other people interpret it.

I just spent the day running REW, different phase settings, low pass filter settings and then running Anti-Mode multiple times to see what's what with what. The point being, it's always fun how comments are interpreted as there's so many ways one can go with complex recommendations.

Personally, I have a terrible null I'm trying to phase shift my way out of. tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/25/13 at 1:39pm
post #8076 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post


But Bill Fitzmaurice, whose opinions I value, is of the opinion that stacking the receiver and sub low pass filters can avoid localization issues with little penalty. Which stil has zip to do with movies vs music.
Neither does using the LFE IME. I use it and my sub works equally well with music and movies. The only change I do with music is to take the AVR out of surround mode and run it in stereo mode. Recordings mastered in surround sound good in surround, but most aren't.
Quote:
AFAIK the lfe input typically bypasses the sub's own crossover.
I guess some might, I haven't run across any wired that way.
post #8077 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Which stil has zip to do with movies vs music.

I like to say: Home Theater vs Music; pick one and let the other fall where it may. In my opinion, trying to serve both HT and music is like trying to have two fiances in the same room at the same time. Not a good idea.
post #8078 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I like to say: Home Theater vs Music; pick one and let the other fall where it may. In my opinion, trying to serve both HT and music is like trying to have two fiances in the same room at the same time. Not a good idea.

Why would music and HT require different parameters? A quality sub will be good with both. The sub certainly can't tell the difference.
post #8079 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Why would music and HT require different parameters? A quality sub will be good with both. The sub certainly can't tell the difference.
Well, if you're only using the sub with music there's little to be gained from having one that goes lower than 35Hz. But otherwise, yes, accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction.
post #8080 of 15160
Whats the purpose of the LPF? I figured it duplicates the frequencies at 120hz and lower and directs them to the sub but I guess thats not what it does.
post #8081 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

But otherwise, yes, accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction.

Hence why I suggest one should pick one, Home Theater or music and let the other fall where it may? It's a response to folks who post: "I'm going use the sub, 70% HT/30% music, which one should I buy?. Does that mean, they want a sub that expectedly will do a lousy job on the other 70% of the music they listen to and they don't care how the other 30% of the movies they watch, sounds? tongue.gif

So, I tell people they can only have one, Home Theater or Music because they can't have both; pick one.
post #8082 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I tell people they can only have one, Home Theater or Music because they can't have both; pick one.
What if you're watching a movie that's a musical? Won't that confuse the sub if you bought is specifically for one or the other?
post #8083 of 15160
I think that is the number one reason for amp failure.
post #8084 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Well, if you're only using the sub with music there's little to be gained from having one that goes lower than 35Hz. But otherwise, yes, accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction.

That is not quite true. A lot of techno sound goes below that. But there is more to it. Reverberation from the surrounding changes the frequency bandwdith. For instance, let us say we have an impulse response at time t=0. If there is an echo at time 50ms and this reflection occurs with the same phase as the orginal impulse, there will be an emphasis at 20hz on FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) result. If, in addition to that, there is also an echo at 25ms, but with inverse phase of the original impulse, that will further enhance the frequency component at 20hz (as the impulse has made it more like a waveform resembling a sine wave). We all know the sound of the announcer in a large heavy reverberate stadium sound like it has a lot of bass. Now in the movie, how do you create that type of effect? We first record the announcer voice in the studio and put it through DSP with an impulse response that injects many of these tiny time delayed echoes and out comes the special effect. In the early days of room EQ, it was a tough sell because engineers quickly realize this type of reverberation (similar to what happen in room) is not same as just manipulating the frequency domain response.

Now most of the musically recording is still done naturally. For instance, in the 1980's, labels like Proprius started recording in huge churches. The sound effect is just amazing. When you have a sub with good extension, it makes you feel you are actually in there. On the other hand, once it is played in the elevator with limited low end extension, all the sense of being in the church is gone. So one can argue it is easier to demonstrate the sound quality with music that is naturally recorded than with HT riddled a lot of DSP processing. Personally I feel there is a push from movie studios to dismiss sound quality difference ever exists in good amps vs bad amps so that they can continue to feed us artificial sounds.

BTW, I started working on these servo subwoofers when I started really enjoy those recordings. "Jazz at the Pawnshop" is just one example. I found the "hall effect" is greatly enhanced when I set the extension filter to 14hz.

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Edited by Rythmik - 1/26/13 at 8:51am
post #8085 of 15160
As for LFE vs line in, they are almost identical except the phase alignment will be a bit different. For instance, if one swaps same signal from LFE in to LINE in, he needs to add about 2 ft distance to the subwoofer distance to compensate for the phase difference. Since these two sources can all be used up to 100hz, I have implemented such that they have a bit of different sonic characteristic. I encourage everyone try both (with the correct distance compensation of course).

BTW, I have seen some companies boasting their subwoofer bandwidth are up to blah blah blah. Little do they know is that is just a way to invite noise, either from the relay or signal switch for the source AVR, or from the noise contracted by the interconnect cable. There is a lot of reporting of solving noise issue by switching from one cable to another. Solving that problem is just a "relative" measure because the problem may still be there, just with less degree.

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Edited by Rythmik - 1/26/13 at 8:51am
post #8086 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post


BTW, I have seen some companies boosting their subwoofer bandwidth are up to blah blah blah. Little do they know is that is just a way to invite noise, either from the relay or signal switch for the source AVR, or from the noise contracted by the interconnect cable.

Keep doing what your doing. AKA Rythmik is what it is... no blah blah blah lie lie lie blah blah.
post #8087 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What if you're watching a movie that's a musical? Won't that confuse the sub if you bought is specifically for one or the other?

eek.gif

Good point. I never gave musicals a thought. I guess the music in the musical is just going have to live with the confusion and I should have been more careful in my choice of subwoofers. Well that leave Les Miserables off the to view list. tongue.gif

We watched a good bass movie last night with lots of electricity (lightening) crashes in the sound track: "Event Horizon." Excellent SciFi movie.

Scene from the movie.

You can hear the bass rumbling in the background.

Here's the big on bass music sound track if you happen to pick "musical" subs. cool.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/26/13 at 4:29am
post #8088 of 15160
Quote:
... It's a response to folks who post: "I'm going use the sub, 70% HT/30% music, which one should I buy?. Does that mean, they want a sub that expectedly will do a lousy job on the other 70% of the music they listen to and they don't care how the other 30% of the movies they watch, sounds? tongue.gif
To me, that means they primarily want output and extension for movies, and reasonable (or better, if possible) accuracy for music. Sounds a lot like my old PB12-NSD.
Quote:
Hence why I suggest one should pick one, Home Theater or music and let the other fall where it may?
Suggesting that they pick only one means that the must expect 100% lousy music or 100% lousy movies. Not something I'd aim for. wink.gif
Quote:
So, I tell people they can only have one, Home Theater or Music because they can't have both; pick one.
With my current ChaseHT subs, I have both. cool.gif I suspect there are many subs out there that will also deliver both.

YMMV, of course. smile.gif
post #8089 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

To me, that means they primarily want output and extension for movies, and reasonable (or better, if possible) accuracy for music.
And what says you can't have both? Good subs don't trade off accuracy for extension. As already mentioned, when a sub receives a signal it has no clue whether that signal is a musical tone or a low frequency effect, and if it's a good sub it will faithfully reproduce it, whatever the source. To suggest that there's something intrinsically different between a low frequency tone sourced from a musical instrument and one sourced on a Foley stage, and that they require different forms of reproduction, belies a lack of understanding of the basics of how sound reproduction works.
post #8090 of 15160
Quote:
And what says you can't have both?
Beat me. I'm not the one arguing that you can only have one or the other.
post #8091 of 15160
This type of discussion of music vs HT is not brand new. It happened in audio industry numerous times in the past. Early Japanese marketing gurus studied the sound preference of US customers. They come to the conclusion there were east coast sound and west coast sound. Elsewhere we have US sound vs British sound. We also have speakers that is good for classic and bad for rocks or vice versa. I think it is human nature to think that way. But the truth.... I dont care (or we should not get hung up on it) biggrin.gif We should not let this type of arguement sway us one way or another because everyone is different.

That being said, a lot of times, the recommendation of which sub works best for customer is based on room size, existing subwoofer (ported vs sealed), and how they like the sound from current sub and that helps us to direct the customers to the correct model.You will be surprised how many times I have heard "well it is ok for movies, but for music it is muddy or boomy". So indeed there are differences these customers can hear. Those are the type of customers we want to get. If the customers tell me they all sound the same, just not power enough, I have a different strategy.

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Edited by Rythmik - 1/26/13 at 8:50am
post #8092 of 15160
I'm still new to this but are we saying that Variable tuning subs are not good subs or that there is not really such a thing as a musical vs. HT sub?
Edited by Prime316 - 1/26/13 at 8:21am
post #8093 of 15160
Brian:
I have a few questions regarding your proposed dual mono amps i.e. 2X400 specifically in relation to the GR SW-12-16FR drivers.
a] dual mono amp versions, power ratings and guesstimate release dates?

With the current plate amps you can drive a max of 3 16FR's in parallel before you get bellow the amps safe minimum impedance load.
b] How many 16FR's in total can the dual amps safely drive? 4 would be cool, 6 would be awesome.

I am assuming they are completely dual mono after the single power supply. If the servo feedback circuits are truly isolated.
c] Is it be possible to run both SW-12-16FR and SW-8-16FR off of the same dual mono plate amp?
d] With a bit of soldering would it be possible to have different x-over and extension setting for each channel?

Thinking way outside the box ... Shawn
post #8094 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Suggesting that they pick only one means that the must expect 100% lousy music or 100% lousy movies.

No, it's saying pick one and let the other fall where it may. Yup!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Beat me. I'm not the one arguing that you can only have one or the other.

There is no argument. Clarifications are not arguments. Anybody who buys a decent subwoofer and takes the time to "PROPERLY" integrate their subwoofer into the sonic chan will automatically get both. As Bill has suggested, the solution is properly dialing one's subwoofer system into the room's acoustics. In my opinion, poorly dialing a subwoofer system into the sonic reproduction chain is what kills a sub's potential.

Peaks and valleys are the bane of quality sound. Home Theater or music, it's hard to get mid-bass slam if a null is sucking the life out of the mid-bass in music or Home Theater. In a poorly set up system, both music and Home Theater sound tracks will suffer. Soooooo, I say pick one cause you can't have both. The intent of the comment is to get the person who's asking the questions to focus on quality of sound, not the mode of the sound.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/26/13 at 8:51am
post #8095 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

Whats the purpose of the LPF? I figured it duplicates the frequencies at 120hz and lower and directs them to the sub but I guess thats not what it does.

There are indeed some ambiguity in terms of how LFE is handled in non-native 5.1 setup (or x.x). LFE is not a complete independent channel. Think of a gun shot. It has low frequency content that naturally goes to LFE channel, but it also have high frequency components going to other channel. They should be really combined together in signal domain (where speaker phase response and distance are completely irrevalent) before they are processed further for bass management. But there are docuements showing it is not done this way, which completely beats me. How what do we have .1 channel? It is encoding efficiency. Instead of using standard 44k sampling rate, .1 is sampled with less than 1k sampling rate in order to save the storage space.
post #8096 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prime316 View Post

I'm still new to this but are we saying that Variable tuning subs are not good subs or that there is not really such a thing as a musical vs. HT sub?
There's no such thing as a musical vs HT sub. If you only listen to music you may not need to go as low as is preferred for HT, which means for music only you can get away with a smaller less powerful sub. But that doesn't mean a sub that goes lower than you need for music will work any less well with music than a sub that doesn't go as low. Variable tuning is properly used to tune the subs response to work best with the room acoustics and sub placement. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you're listening to. It has to do with getting the flattest possible in room response for accurate reproduction of whatever the source material may be.
post #8097 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No, it's saying pick one and let the other fall where it may. Yup!
There is no argument. Clarifications are not arguments. Anybody who buys a decent subwoofer and takes the time to "PROPERLY" integrate their subwoofer into the sonic chan will automatically get both. As Bill has suggested, the solution is properly dialing one's subwoofer system into the room's acoustics. In my opinion, poorly dialing a subwoofer system into the sonic reproduction chain is what kills a sub's potential.

Peaks and valleys are the bane of quality sound. Home Theater or music, it's hard to get mid-bass slam if a null is sucking the life out of the mid-bass in music or Home Theater. In a poorly set up system, both music and Home Theater sound tracks will suffer. Soooooo, I say pick one cause you can't have both. The intent of the comment is to get the person who's asking the questions to focus on quality of sound, not the mode of the sound.

-

You're the only one still riding the "pick one because you can't have both train" on this topic.

Bringing nulls and EQ into the equation is largely if not entirely irrelevant to whether subwoofers treat music and HT content differently. An accurate subwoofer will perform well with both types of content. No need to confuse the issue with a different topic - integration.
Edited by bfreedma - 1/26/13 at 9:32am
post #8098 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinTheMartian View Post

Brian:
I have a few questions regarding your proposed dual mono amps i.e. 2X400 specifically in relation to the GR SW-12-16FR drivers.
a] dual mono amp versions, power ratings and guesstimate release dates?

The model of the amp is HX800. In addition to HX800, we will have HX300, HX600 (dual 300W x2). They are supposed to be released last year. I have a customer pre-order a pair of them and my priority is air ship units to fulfill his order first. The rest should arrive late March.

Quote:
With the current plate amps you can drive a max of 3 16FR's in parallel before you get bellow the amps safe minimum impedance load.
b] How many 16FR's in total can the dual amps safely drive? 4 would be cool, 6 would be awesome.
The current A370 plate amp can driver up to 4 16FR drivers on paper (because the DCR will be 3ohms just like our sealed or ported subs). But there are reports the amp gets a bit warm (because the impedance peak from OB driver is not as strong as in sealed or ported subs) and hence Danny recommended 2 or 3. HX800 class-D (it is no secret that they are based on Hypex modules) and hence more energy efficient. I do feel that each 400W should comfortably drive even 4 16FR and that gives you 8 16FR total. I have proposed more than once that we should re-parameterized 16FR to SW12-8FR and have an amp specifically designed to use two OB drivers per channel. The customer should expect to save $120. But he is not sure if that is a good idea or not. You can help me to persuade him. Here is the thing. T/S parameters are scalable with respect to DCR. But all current amps have a sweet spot at 4ohms (or 3ohms for the good ones). I really think we should standardize the OB drivers as 8ohms load (or 6ohm DCR) so that each 250W to 300W module can drive two. If we need more drivers, switch amp from HX300 to HX600.
Quote:
I am assuming they are completely dual mono after the single power supply. If the servo feedback circuits are truly isolated.
c] Is it be possible to run both SW-12-16FR and SW-8-16FR off of the same dual mono plate amp?
d] With a bit of soldering would it be possible to have different x-over and extension setting for each channel?

Thinking way outside the box ... Shawn

The servo feedback circuits are truly isolated. But we use the trick of pseudo complementary (or BTL) so that there are always equal (or similar) amount of current drawn from the positive and negative power supply caps. If you mix drivers, that condition of pseudo BTL is no longer true. All of advantage is lost. In short, we don’t recommend mixing different drivers on our dual mono amps.

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Edited by Rythmik - 1/26/13 at 9:49am
post #8099 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Instead of using standard 44k sampling rate, .1 is sampled with less than 1k sampling rate in order to save the storage space.

Wow, really???? Reference?
post #8100 of 15160
I'm new to this forum. I am upgrading my sound systems and am ready to upgrade the subwoofer in my living room system. After everything I have been reading I am seriously considering a Rythmik F12.

I have been following the discussions on this forum the past few days and am a little confused as to what would be the best way to hook up a sub with an A370PEQ3 amp to an AVR that has preamp outputs for both the subwoofer and left and right main channels? The sub has both line level and LFE inputs and the AVR has both SW and L/R preouts.

It is my understanding that the LFE (SW) out is the only channel where low frequency effects (explosions, jet fighters, huge robots, etc) are so I would need to hook the sub up using the LFE input to get these effects. However, based on Brian's response about the severely reduced sampling rate on the LFE channel (SW out) wouldn't using the LFE in result in degraded bass from music?

But then if I used the L/R preouts on the AVR and line level inputs on the sub to get higher quality bass reproduction wouldn't I lose the low frequency effects in movies?

My AVR has the ability to set the L/R main speakers (Klipsch RB 82 II's) as Large and then set the SW preout as LFE + Main. This looks like it would solve the problem of getting the low frequency effects from movies and the high quality bass from music.

However it appears to create another problem. Using an LFE + Main setting will send a full bandwidth signal to the sub. This would require using the sub's crossover to limit the frequencies and blend with the mains but as I understand the instructions on the A370PEQ3 amps, when you use the LFE input you bypass the crossover. Hence my confusion.
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