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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 271

post #8101 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

It is my understanding that the LFE (SW) out is the only channel where low frequency effects (explosions, jet fighters, huge robots, etc) are so I would need to hook the sub up using the LFE input to get these effects. However, based on Brian's response about the severely reduced sampling rate on the LFE channel (SW out) wouldn't using the LFE in result in degraded bass from music?

But then if I used the L/R preouts on the AVR and line level inputs on the sub to get higher quality bass reproduction wouldn't I lose the low frequency effects in movies?

You'll want to use the AVR's LFE output to the sub. Yes that has the .1 LFE channel info going to it with 5.1 and 7.1 content but it will also receive the lower frequencies from the other channels. Depending on how your AVR is implemented you can likely set the crossover frequency (set speaker size to small) for the other channels (commonly folks use 80 Hz) and material below that crossover freq are combined with the LFE channel and sent to the sub. That info will not be downsampled as it comes from the higher sampling rate of the main channels. As long as your receiver can control the sub distance and crossover point you will likely want to use the LFE in on the sub.

I'm very pleased with my Rythmik build quality, sound quality, output, extension, and customer service. Suspect you will be pleased if you end up going that route.
post #8102 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post


It is my understanding that the LFE (SW) out is the only channel where low frequency effects (explosions, jet fighters, huge robots, etc) are
That's where they get sent if you have a sub. Otherwise they go to the mains. The same applies to all low frequency content below the selected low pass frequency for each channel.
Quote:
based on Brian's response about the severely reduced sampling rate on the LFE channel (SW out) wouldn't using the LFE in result in degraded bass from music?
The sampling rate is lower because with a maximum bandwidth extension to perhaps 200Hz there's nothing to be gained by having it higher.

People, you're making this way more complicated than it needs to be. If you have an LFE out use it. The only reason not to use it is if you don't have it.
post #8103 of 15160
Here is my take on the HT vs Musical sub and should apply to the rest of the speakers

An accurate sub will faithfully reproduce the sound the way the its supposed to sound. Those who listen to live music will know that how an instrument is supposed to sound like, An accurate speakers will reproduce this faitfully for both HT and Music. For HT, I can get by with less than stellar performances from a subwoofer or speakers as long as it shakes the room, for one thing, i have not experienced a car crash, a train wreck, nuclear explosion or intergallactic explosion (does that even make a sound in spac:rolleyes:e ). This is where the "HT" sub comes in or what is actually a less than accurate subwoofer also known as good for HT only subwoofer.

Basically Setting up a sound system for audio or HT is a bit a compromise based on what we can spend, For most of us, HT requires a lot of SPL, so if you have a limited budget, do you go for a sealed F12 or 15 inch ported sub from another brand ?
Edited by qguy - 1/26/13 at 5:36pm
post #8104 of 15160
^^^

I think that is the reason why an HT sub does not really need as accurate. One of the Chesky test CD (issued almost 20 years ago) has many tracks demonstrating how DSP programs can take a studio recorded vocal or instrument sound (that is mono and completely lacks of reveration) and make it sound like stereo and like from any type of rooms in an almost step by step fashion (like this is a mono sound, then this is how to make it sound stereo, then we add reverberation to make it sound like in a large room, etc). At that time, I wonder if Chesky has taken a sort short cut in their recording. No they didn't, but the movie industry did. Just like what they have done with all the CGI effects, they have done the same to the sound effects. What a shocker!!! This is like why do we need taste buds if we cannot tell difference between artificial flavor and natural flavor.

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Edited by Rythmik - 1/27/13 at 10:01am
post #8105 of 15160
My question really wasn't about music vs HT. It was about how to connect the sub to take full advantage of it's capabilities and still be able to take full advantage of the main speakers capabilities. If you have main speakers that go down to 30-45 Hz it is a waste to cross them over to the sub at 80Hz (or even 60Hz which is the lowest crossover in my AVR).

The sub I have in my second listening room ( Von Schweikert VR-S/1) also has LFE and line level L/R inputs but instead of the LFE input automatically bypassing the sub's low pass filter (crossover) it has an additional control that allows you to select whether you want to use or bypass the sub's LPF or not. This way I can use the full frequency range of the main speakers (down to 45 Hz in this particular set) and cross the sub over where it blends best. Martin-Logan's Reserve ESL series of subs allow you to connect the LFE and L/R line level inputs simultaneously then use the sub's crossover controls to blend the sub with the mains.

This ability to integrate a sub while still using the full abilities of the main speakers is going to be even more important to me when I upgrade our third system because I intend to use full range tower speakers with a frequency range starting at 30 Hz.
post #8106 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

My question really wasn't about music vs HT. It was about how to connect the sub to take full advantage of it's capabilities and still be able to take full advantage of the main speakers capabilities.

Bad news, unless you get a realtime room analyzing program and hand integrate your subs into the sound reproduction system, you won't be able to take full advantage of it's capabilities. And without a realtime room analyzer, you won't know there's a need that needs to be looked into.

Just saying, today, by simply moving one of our two subs around to the other side of the left corner easy chair and playing with the phase and frequency limit potentiometer, I eliminated 15dB worth of null at 28Hz. The point, without one taking time to correct for anomalies of this kind, the individual is not taking full advantage of their subwoofer's capabilities when integrating subs into a room's acoustics.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/27/13 at 12:36pm
post #8107 of 15160
What a joy it is to be able to get a sub designed by a true-blue audiophile! Just look at what other sub designers/companies claim as the qualities of their subs. Not a single one with as much of an audiophile's/music lover's perspective as Brian's. I'm SO happy I found Rythmik! Speaking of the intrinsic qualities a sub needs to posess in order to reproduce music vs. home theater.....after integrating a Rythmik sub into a music system, I'll bet a lot of those systems could then require the owner to upgrade his main speakers, room acoustical treatment, and electronics to match the quality of the low frequencies afforded by the Rythmik sub(s). You have been warned:)!
post #8108 of 15160
...And don't forget the PhD in EE to round out his audiophile credentials. Brian is indeed a rare breed.
post #8109 of 15160
That's good because I'm no engineer. You would think I'd understand it better than I do (my dad was an electronics engineer for Heath Co and Electro-Voice but my degrees are in social sciences and nutrition. It seems to me that none of the pieces (components) of this puzzle want to play nice with each other.
post #8110 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

That's good because I'm no engineer. You would think I'd understand it better than I do (my dad was an electronics engineer for Heath Co and Electro-Voice but my degrees are in social sciences and nutrition. It seems to me that none of the pieces (components) of this puzzle want to play nice with each other.

To be encouraging, people and food don't always get along and play nice with each other either. tongue.gif

To be even more encouraging, you'll need to get a room analyzing program to be able to see what's happening in your rooms. Sans doing this and you're just making your best evaluative guess.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/27/13 at 7:59pm
post #8111 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Well, if you're only using the sub with music there's little to be gained from having one that goes lower than 35Hz. But otherwise, yes, accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction.

Hmm. The performance goal for my next subwoofer is to be able to reproduce the following, which is a sample from recorded live music (not electronic):



From what I have seen, this will prove as challenging (and maybe more so) than any movie LFE. Target max SPL is around 105 dB at 65hz, but this means I need 102 at 32hz, and 90 dB at both 16 and 8hz! (I will probably build a sealed 15" Rythmik sub as that seems to give the best super low extension)

Now I will grant you this is a bit of an unusual recording of an unusual instrument, but I have lots of other recordings that need very high levels down to 16hz. These include organ recordings and many symphony recordings with large bass drums.

For the curious, the sample above was taken from a recording of the organ in the Atlantic City Convention Hall, which has pipes as large as 64 feet long, resonating at 8hz.
post #8112 of 15160
And, as Brian said, the "size" of a large room is revealed by a sub that goes below 35hz, even though no instrument is playing a tone that low. The open E string on a standard 4-string electric or acoustic bass is 42hz, so a lot of studio-recorded music (it's surprising just how small most studios are) needs a speaker that "only" goes that low without excessive distortion. Most don't.
post #8113 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

My question really wasn't about music vs HT. It was about how to connect the sub to take full advantage of it's capabilities and still be able to take full advantage of the main speakers capabilities. If you have main speakers that go down to 30-45 Hz it is a waste to cross them over to the sub at 80Hz (or even 60Hz which is the lowest crossover in my AVR).

Well, not exactly. By doing a crossover higher than the front speaker's natural extension, you can 1) reduce the bass loading from the front speakers, and 2) remove some less desirable characteristic of the front speaker's bass response and replace that with the one from the sub. This is particular true with some speakers. For instance, in order to make front speakers sound deeper than what they really are, most front speakers are tuned to have a pretty high Q (low damping) extension. The practice started with BBC LS3/5A. I had a pair of them when I developed our first prototype. The sound characteristic is the drums sounded very forward (closer to the listener) and fatiguing. During the development process, one consultant came over to listen the difference between the before and a the fter of adding our subwoofer. We started with playing some normal music (without deep bass). His immediately reaction was "you changed the frequency response" (sort of like cry foul in that in order to have an exact apple-to-apple comparison, I was obligated to preserve the flaw in LS3/5A design).
Quote:

The sub I have in my second listening room ( Von Schweikert VR-S/1) also has LFE and line level L/R inputs but instead of the LFE input automatically bypassing the sub's low pass filter (crossover) it has an additional control that allows you to select whether you want to use or bypass the sub's LPF or not. This way I can use the full frequency range of the main speakers (down to 45 Hz in this particular set) and cross the sub over where it blends best. Martin-Logan's Reserve ESL series of subs allow you to connect the LFE and L/R line level inputs simultaneously then use the sub's crossover controls to blend the sub with the mains.

Ours PEQ3/XLR2/XLR3 amplifier options has same capability as the M-L Reserve series subs. I think most audiophiles like to play the front speakers in full range and only use subwoofer to take over at the bottom end. That method has the least amount of signal processing and our PEQ3/XLR2/XLR3 are designed for that application too.

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Edited by Rythmik - 1/27/13 at 9:48pm
post #8114 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

As for LFE vs line in, they are almost identical except the phase alignment will be a bit different. For instance, if one swaps same signal from LFE in to LINE in, he needs to add about 2 ft distance to the subwoofer distance to compensate for the phase difference. Since these two sources can all be used up to 100hz, I have implemented such that they have a bit of different sonic characteristic. I encourage everyone try both (with the correct distance compensation of course).

BTW, I have seen some companies boasting their subwoofer bandwidth are up to blah blah blah. Little do they know is that is just a way to invite noise, either from the relay or signal switch for the source AVR, or from the noise contracted by the interconnect cable. There is a lot of reporting of solving noise issue by switching from one cable to another. Solving that problem is just a "relative" measure because the problem may still be there, just with less degree.

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If it (LINE IN) can go higher than 100Hz, what's up with the 90Hz mentioned in the FV15HP spec? Is the 90Hz the reason for the sonic characteristic?
post #8115 of 15160
Brian,

Any updates on the revamped FV12?
post #8116 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post


Ours PEQ3/XLR2/XLR3 amplifier options has same capability as the M-L Reserve series subs. I think most audiophiles like to play the front speakers in full range and only use subwoofer to take over at the bottom end. That method has the least amount of signal processing and our PEQ3/XLR2/XLR3 are designed for that application too.

-

Thanks. This is what I was looking for. I couldn't find any instructions on your website for how to make this type of connection so I thought It wasn't possible to use both connections at the same time.

I take it the way I would do this is to connect the subwoofer pre-out from the AVR to the LFE input on the sub and the front L & R pre-outs on the AVR to the L/R line in inputs on the sub. Then the signals coming through the LFE input would bypass the sub's crossover while the signals coming through the L/R line in inputs would go through the sub's crossover.

For the AVR settings I would set the Center and surround channels to "Small" and use the AVR's crossover settings to attenuate these signals to the sub (since they will be going to the sub via LFE input and bypassing the sub's crossover) and set the Front speakers to "Large/Full Range" in which case the full bandwidth from these channels will be sent to the sub via the L/R line in inputs and be attenuate by the sub's crossover.

Is my understanding correct?
Edited by mlundy57 - 1/28/13 at 11:01am
post #8117 of 15160
I have a question, I was trying the Bass I love you track with my F15. Settings are 14hz, hi damp, 80hz cross on avr, limiter off. It would flap and bottom super easy, not even playing loud. So I tried it with limiter on and it pretty much wouldn't even play any bass. Is this normal? Sub is leveled with other speakers so not running hot either.
post #8118 of 15160
One more thing. I usually do my antimode, then MCACC on my receiver. This time I did it though with 14hz low damping on antimode, then switched to hi damping when I went to MCACC. Thought I read somewhere to do it like this with Audyssey, is it ok to do like this with MCACC? Thanks
post #8119 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

Thanks. This is what I was looking for. I couldn't find any instructions on your website for how to make this type of connection so I thought It wasn't possible to use both connections at the same time.

I take it the way I would do this is to connect the subwoofer pre-out from the AVR to the LFE input on the sub and the front L & R pre-outs on the AVR to the L/R line in inputs on the sub. Then the signals coming through the LFE input would bypass the sub's crossover while the signals coming through the L/R line in inputs would go through the sub's crossover.

For the AVR settings I would set the Center and surround channels to "Small" and use the AVR's crossover settings to attenuate these signals to the sub (since they will be going to the sub via LFE input and bypassing the sub's crossover) and set the Front speakers to "Large/Full Range" in which case the full bandwidth from these channels will be sent to the sub via the L/R line in inputs and be attenuate by the sub's crossover.

Is my understanding correct?

Your understanding is correct. It is recommended when your front speakers are of good size (such as those floor standing ones) because the front L/R channel may still contain good amount of bass signals. Setting front speakers to small does not relieve them of bass loading. In terms of integration, you will need to use 2-channel signals to adjust the crossover and phase first to get the best integration. Most likely the crossover knob will be around 40hz range. Then go to HT and adjust the distance of subwoofer.

The alternative approach (which will relieve bass from the front speakers) is same as above, but in HT mode, set the front speakers to small and set the crossover frequency to 80hz or 90hz so that all bass signals in HT mode will be sent to subwoofer.
post #8120 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peen View Post

One more thing. I usually do my antimode, then MCACC on my receiver. This time I did it though with 14hz low damping on antimode, then switched to hi damping when I went to MCACC. Thought I read somewhere to do it like this with Audyssey, is it ok to do like this with MCACC? Thanks

Plz try use 14hz/low damping for both antimode and MCACC then switching back the damping to high after both are done. The reason to set the extension to 14hz/low damping is to avoid any of them do any boosting at the lower end bass.
post #8121 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Brian,

Any updates on the revamped FV12?

We have the everything ready except one component. We expect to receive that by mid next week (or even earlier) and start shipping again.
post #8122 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

For sealed subs, turn off rumble filter and set the extension to 14hz/ mid damping before running roomEQ such as Audyssey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Plz try use 14hz/low damping for both antimode and MCACC then switching back the damping to high after both are done. The reason to set the extension to 14hz/low damping is to avoid any of them do any boosting at the lower end bass.

Brian, so should damping be set to low or mid before running room EQ on your sealed subs?
post #8123 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post


Brian, so should damping be set to low or mid before running room EQ on your sealed subs?

The reason is roomEQ has a target FR. It may boost bottom end bass depending on their software algorithm which varies from one to another. So the best strategy is to present the flattest anechoic response and let the roomEQ to address the "room" problem only, instead of trying to make up the deficiency. After room EQ is done, then we can put the extension/damping to whatever we want.
post #8124 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

The reason is roomEQ has a target FR. It may boost bottom end bass depending on their software algorithm which varies from one to another. So the best strategy is to present the flattest anechoic response and let the roomEQ to address the "room" problem only, instead of trying to make up the deficiency. After room EQ is done, then we can put the extension/damping to whatever we want.

Thanks for the response. I understand the general reasoning, but in a previous post of yours that I had quoted above you said to set damping to mid on your sealed models and to low on ported ones prior to running roomEQ. Then in the second post that I had quoted you told an owner of an F15 to set damping to low prior to running roomEQ. Could you please clarify which damping setting is more appropriate for your sealed subs specifically during roomEQ measurements?
post #8125 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Plz try use 14hz/low damping for both antimode and MCACC then switching back the damping to high after both are done. The reason to set the extension to 14hz/low damping is to avoid any of them do any boosting at the lower end bass.
I did not know this and ran Audessey with 14hz/high damping on my FV15HP. Does it make a difference running it again per your suggestion (14hz/low damping) and set it back to hi damping after the Audessey auto calibration?
post #8126 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I did not know this and ran Audessey with 14hz/high damping on my FV15HP. Does it make a difference running it again per your suggestion (14hz/low damping) and set it back to hi damping after the Audessey auto calibration?

I was going to do the same thing til I got to #4 on the instruction sheet. What the heck, it doesn't take all that long to run Audyssey.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/download/FV15_FV15HP_PEQ3_Installation_Guide.pdf
post #8127 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post

Thanks for the response. I understand the general reasoning, but in a previous post of yours that I had quoted above you said to set damping to mid on your sealed models and to low on ported ones prior to running roomEQ. Then in the second post that I had quoted you told an owner of an F15 to set damping to low prior to running roomEQ. Could you please clarify which damping setting is more appropriate for your sealed subs specifically during roomEQ measurements?

The difference of using mid damping and low damping is that in the former, you can further boost the low end response after running roomEQ by turning to low damping setting whereas in the latter, where you use low damping for roomEQ, you can pretty much only cut, not boost after roomEQ. Keep in mind this is a guideline, but an absolute step as it can vary from case to case. I encourage customers to share with us their exprience.
post #8128 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Bad news, unless you get a realtime room analyzing program and hand integrate your subs into the sound reproduction system, you won't be able to take full advantage of it's capabilities. And without a realtime room analyzer, you won't know there's a need that needs to be looked into.

-

Now that I understand the hook up issue I can address this one.What type of realtime room analyzer program are you talking about? The only ones I know of are the Audyssay programs built into the AVR's. What type of equipment ans software is required to run one of the programs you are talking about?
post #8129 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peen View Post

I have a question, I was trying the Bass I love you track with my F15. Settings are 14hz, hi damp, 80hz cross on avr, limiter off. It would flap and bottom super easy, not even playing loud. So I tried it with limiter on and it pretty much wouldn't even play any bass. Is this normal? Sub is leveled with other speakers so not running hot either.

I'm having the same exact problem (same song, same issue) with my FV15HP.
post #8130 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Plz try use 14hz/low damping for both antimode and MCACC then switching back the damping to high after both are done. The reason to set the extension to 14hz/low damping is to avoid any of them do any boosting at the lower end bass.
Well I tried running MCACC on low vs hi. Problem is it just sets the output about 3db too low and then I just have to raise it back up.

Running the Antimode 8033 on low first though doesn't seem to hurt.

But when I turn up the db's 3 on the sub the whole system sounds REALLY good. From now on I will do the setup on low damping and switch back and raise the volume a bit smile.gif
Edited by Peen - 1/29/13 at 6:52pm
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