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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 273

post #8161 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

The advantage of servo is multi-fold. Low distortion seems to be very well-known. But less well known is the ability of having a very precise cone excursion control. I have published the excursion plots for the 1 port mode in low damping and high damping, respectively.




-

Can someone help me interpret the graphs?? I can comprehend the common CEA2010 SPL vs Hz measurement graphs, where the dB axis goes from 0 to 120, and frequency axis goes from 0 to whatever. The graphs above have me perplexed. What does the -25dB and 0dB points on the X-axis correspond to in terms of actual dB SPL?? The following is a measurement graph for the Rythmik FV12, that has me wondering similarly. Help me understand these graphs in terms of SPL vs Hz on a 0 to ~120 dB scale. Thanks!

post #8162 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

tytytyty

+1 thanks Bill!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Woody777, I'm not the most technical on this stuff either but keep trying to learn more and more. This stuff is kewl.

I believe "bottoming out" is when the cone excursion is so much that the woofer physically hits the magnet. This is very likely to cause damage so until Brian comes up with some tests and/or recommendations for you I would cease that particular test.

I believe "port noise" can occur when playing below port tune where all of the sonic energy comes out of the port from the woofers backwave and is not coming directly out of the woofer itself. I think there's a point where so much air getting pushed through the port causes a "chuffing" sound.

So I think bottoming out is a physical "knock", cone hitting the magnet. Whereas port noise is caused by too much air and sounds like a "chuff".

Do you think your source volume could be vastly different from mine, can you play from you tube? I am calibrated to reference. I noticed we do have some configuration differences, not sure if that could be the cause of our different results. The limiter makes sound strangisms when it kicks in but the only time I have ever heard it was playing a long slow sweep starting at 5 Hz and the level was CRANKED at the GTG. The limiter kicks in so big SPL drop, then releases, then kicks in...sort of like pumping the breaks so SPL fluctuates. Any particular reason why you have this safeguard off? It may be worth a try to match my settings but start very low volume and stop at any sign of trouble. During that sweep I sure was glad I had it on.

How does your sub sound on material above 14Hz? I suppose another test would be to do some sine waves. They are very taxing on a sub so play short tones (maybe 15 seconds) and give the sub a break between (maybe a minute or two). I'd be curious how the sub performs in gradually decreasing sine waves from 30Hz down to 16Hz (also ceasing at any sign of trouble).

Clearly our subs are performing differently on that track and I too am curious as to the cause, I suppose it could be configuration but really I dunno????????????????

Thanks for the reply. I don't think I've posted any of my settings, but either way, I've never turned the limiter off. I'm streaming the song from Spotify, but I'll try YouTube. I'll try matching your settings, too (although, off the top of my head, I think my settings might actually be the same as you -- even the 3db bump).

I have a test disc from Brian. I just need to find some free time when my two year old isn't asleep to mess with it. Unfortunately, it seems like the stars will align sooner than that actually happens biggrin.gif
post #8163 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post


Thanks for the reply. I don't think I've posted any of my settings, but either way, I've never turned the limiter off.

Ooops sorry, I was looking at Peen's settings. Hope we get this figured out.
post #8164 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Ooops sorry, I was looking at Peen's settings. Hope we get this figured out.

No problem! Me too biggrin.gif
post #8165 of 15163
After reading here the problems some people have had with MCACC settings I decided to go into my SC-35's menu and see what it set my FV15HP at, -12DB! I am a total novice but I bumped it up to -9DB and what a difference it made. I was already impressed at -12DB, now I am amazed.

I have the sub amp settings just like Rythmik recommends on the AVR section.
post #8166 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by K5/SS View Post

After reading here the problems some people have had with MCACC settings I decided to go into my SC-35's menu and see what it set my FV15HP at, -12DB! I am a total novice but I bumped it up to -9DB and what a difference it made. I was already impressed at -12DB, now I am amazed.

I have the sub amp settings just like Rythmik recommends on the AVR section.

This post assumes that -12 is the maximum trim on the sub MCACC/your AVR supports which is how Audyssey works.

What happened was your subs gain was set to a level so high that when MCACC measured SPL it had to turn the sub down. When it turns it down to the max it likely means it actually wanted to turn it down even more. At this point sense we can't know how much more MCACC wanted to turn it down we do not know exactly how hot your sub is running. However it is running at least 3db hot and likely more than that. This is being considered calibrated to reference (at the comparable levels the director intended things to sound). That being said many, including myself, like to run the subs hot. I commonly run the subs 3db hot but I do so less often now with duals as they seem to provide more tactile feel for me. Other run hotter (6-8dbs). Also, with Audyssey anyway some feel it is important to keep your sub trim on the AVR within 3db of a 0 trim level so you have to adjust the gain knob on the sub to get pretty close. It's nice to have an SPL meter to double check any automated tools settings.

My recommendation is to adjust your gain on the sub down and re-run MCACC until you get with 3db of 0 on the AVR trim. Since your preference is to run the sub a bit hot You can do like I do and aim to have the trim after Audyssey around -3 so when I trim it up to run hot I am still within 3db of 0.

The Audyssey thread is filled with "where did my bass go" posts. Many are not accustomed to level/flat/calibrated sub levels. Usually they recommend trying it out for awhile to see if it grows on you. There's nothing wrong with preference and if you find you want your subs hot, trim it up. In the end it's all about what you like.
post #8167 of 15163
Noob Question. How you guys keep the kids away from the subs ?
post #8168 of 15163
dstew 100, running a sub to hot can damage the sub and bottom out the cone. You have a powerful sub and adjust the gain close to 0. Running 3db hot requires twice the power and is not that much louder. To double the loudness you need roughly 10 db. For example:
Using the same speaker specifications:

1 watt = 90dB

10 watts = 100dB

100watts = 110db

1000 watts= 120 db

I have a Pioneer and never exceed the MCACC settings by over 3-6 db on the sub on limit ocassions. I turn the sub up in the avr and leave the gain set on the sub one MCACC has adjusted things to reference level.
Edited by derrickdj1 - 2/4/13 at 4:23am
post #8169 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBUGSY View Post

Noob Question. How you guys keep the kids away from the subs ?

Adoption is always an option smile.gif
post #8170 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

dstew 100, running a sub to hot can damage the sub and bottom out the cone. You have a powerful sub and adjust the gain close to 0. Running 3db hot requires twice the power and is not that much louder. To double the loudness you need roughly 10 db. For example:
Using the same speaker specifications:

1 watt = 90dB

10 watts = 100dB

100watts = 110db

1000 watts= 120 db

I have a Pioneer and never exceed the MCACC settings by over 3-6 db on the sub on limit ocassions. I turn the sub up in the avr and leave the gain set on the sub one MCACC has adjusted things to reference level.

I understand. I stay within the limits, keep the safeguards on, and run duals. I've gone to reference and my system stays clean there, but that's 1% of the time.
post #8171 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBUGSY View Post

Noob Question. How you guys keep the kids away from the subs ?

Adoption is always an option smile.gif

Have you tried mace?
post #8172 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

dstew 100, running a sub to hot can damage the sub and bottom out the cone. You have a powerful sub and adjust the gain close to 0.

Also, it's not the act of running the sub hot that that causes the possibility of damage. -10 on AVR with the sub at level/0 will put the same amount of strain on the sub as running at -13 on the AVR with sub 3db hot.
post #8173 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Have you tried mace?

thats cruel, my suggestion at least provides the kid a chance of getting better parents biggrin.gif

Seriously, i would just put some form of obstacles to prevent the kids from getting at the sub
post #8174 of 15163
@derrickdj1, here's a stab at my situation
watts, db
1, 90
2, 93
4, 96
8, 99
16, 102
32, 105
64, 108
128, 111
256, 114
512, 117
1024, 120

However, every doubling of this distance results in a 6dB drop in SPL. Not sure where you got that 90db measurement but I'll assume it is 90db@1meter. I don't see sensitivity on the Rythmik website for the FV15HP, is that the right number?
@6 feet, 114
@12 feet, 108
but I'm at 9 feet, about 111db
and I run duals (at least +3db), and I've got room gain, and my subs are close to the wall, and one of the subs is about 2 feet from a corner
I should measure but I should be right around the 115db LFE peaks of reference, note those are peaks, not avg level. Perhaps I'm a touch below and compression has started a tad by then.

Note the data-bass short term peak numbers for this sub stay below 120db at 2 meters with CEA outdoor ground plane testing
Edited by dstew100 - 2/4/13 at 6:34am
post #8175 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

dstew 100, running a sub to hot can damage the sub and bottom out the cone.

I agree. But make sure you turn on the limiter. There is a maximum comfortable SPL one can take. For watching movies, I normally set the master volume to -12db to -8db (with a low efficiency sealed front speakers). Running the sub 3db hotter does not change that. It only makes one turn down the master volume I have a huge open floorplan on first floor with family room size of 20"x20" and the connected space is 40"x40" (dining, kitchen, and breakfast area) and I am using an F12 right now with 3db hotter.

-
Edited by Rythmik - 2/4/13 at 6:21am
post #8176 of 15163
Have you guys installed room analyzing programs? The reason I ask, properly integrating a subwoofer system into a room's acoustics can raise your frequency curve by three to fifteen dB. That's a lot of free power with no additional stress on either driver or amplifier.

Graph; before graph is purple and the after graph is red.



Don't worry about the mid-bass dip as these are example graphs, highlighting my above comment about getting more energy from your subs into the room for one's listening pleasure.

Without a room analyzing program, nobody can see what's what with what regarding their integration efforts. Just saying.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/4/13 at 6:29am
post #8177 of 15163
In addition to Audyssey XT32 I do run REW with a RS SPL meter. Haven't set it up since I picked up the second sub yet but it's on the shortlist. Considering one of the new USB mics too, prolly the Dayton.
post #8178 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Have you tried mace?

thats cruel, my suggestion at least provides the kid a chance of getting better parents biggrin.gif

Seriously, i would just put some form of obstacles to prevent the kids from getting at the sub

smile.gif

When my daughter was young I was just consistent with her. I have B&W 805's on stands that are very prone to getting knocked over but it was never an issue. Sit and talk during the close calls and keep it clear that close to speakers is not the play area. Just being consistent was the key for me and never got to the point of time out or anything like that. It's amazing what a little communication can accomplish.
post #8179 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Can someone help me interpret the graphs?? I can comprehend the common CEA2010 SPL vs Hz measurement graphs, where the dB axis goes from 0 to 120, and frequency axis goes from 0 to whatever. The graphs above have me perplexed. What does the -25dB and 0dB points on the X-axis correspond to in terms of actual dB SPL??

The bottom end excursion behavior is different between sealed and ported subs. In the follow is the comparision.



The red is the ported sub. The tuning frequency is 14hz. You can see the excursion below 14hz on the red one shoots up quite a bit. So ported subs need a rumble filter and its purpose is to bring to the exursion such that the excursion peak on the left is about the same on the righ (why do we do that, it is just a engineering hunch if you have to ask). Of course, you can filter more on the left hand side, but the cost is you add more group delay. The ported subs already have poor group delay, we don't want to excerbate the problem. So that really makes having peaks on both side of tuning point side a very logical solution. For music mode, the FV15HP provides a 14hz/high damping, which we use less filtering below the tuning frequency. Now, the plot I showed hear is in absolute lineary scale and y axis is in mm. The two plots I showed early is on relative "logrithmic" scale and +6db difference is 2x amd -6db difference is 1/2x. And in the 14hz/low damping mode, the left side peak is -3db which is 30% lower than the on the right.

But my previous point is no other subs can give you this type of "insight". The only reason we have this is because we have a sensor on the voice coil !!!

-
Edited by Rythmik - 2/4/13 at 6:52am
post #8180 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

In addition to Audyssey XT32 I do run REW with a RS SPL meter. Haven't set it up since I picked up the second sub yet but it's on the shortlist. Considering one of the new USB mics too, prolly the Dayton.

Allow me to encourage you to get your REW up and running as what it shows is "phenomenal." In my opinion, Audyssey XT32 or otherwise, anything else and the individual is guessing as the best out of XT32 is done when the best is already gotten out of one's integration efforts. In my opinion, XT32 is the polish to the raw efforts.

That second sub will create it's own maelstrom to confound your integration efforts. From personal experience, I've found that the addition of a second sub adds it's own foibles. When a second sub is added a null will be created and curing the null creates a dip, and raising the lower end drops the mid-bass end and every parametric change created their own particular equal and opposite reactions. Simply moving a sub one or two feet will create/cause more positive/negative changes but none is "visible" without the aid of a room analyzing program.

Sub integration efforts are, in my opinion, very vexing. Hence the overly repeated recommendation of including the use of a room analyzing program during integration efforts.
post #8181 of 15163
^^^ and among them, phase alignment is the most imporant one. If we have phase alignment done correctly, you can add quite a bit more and still maintain a smooth transition at the crossover point. The following plots shows the composite response together with individual front and subwoofer response.



Now add 3db.



Now add 8db.



The last two is done without doing any additional phase or speaker distance adjustment. But in order to have this, we need to get the phase alignment correct in the first place. Now if one allows the roomEQ to change here and there, that can change the local phase response and the alignment wouldn't be as good.
post #8182 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

In addition to Audyssey XT32 I do run REW with a RS SPL meter. Haven't set it up since I picked up the second sub yet but it's on the shortlist. Considering one of the new USB mics too, prolly the Dayton.

Allow me to encourage you to get your REW up and running as what it shows is "phenomenal." In my opinion, Audyssey XT32 or otherwise, anything else and the individual is guessing as the best out of XT32 is done when the best is already gotten out of one's integration efforts. In my opinion, XT32 is the polish to the raw efforts.

That second sub will create it's own maelstrom to confound your integration efforts. From personal experience, I've found that the addition of a second sub adds it's own foibles. When a second sub is added a null will be created and curing the null creates a dip, and raising the lower end drops the mid-bass end and every parametric change created their own particular equal and opposite reactions. Simply moving a sub one or two feet will create/cause more positive/negative changes but none is "visible" without the aid of a room analyzing program.

Sub integration efforts are, in my opinion, very vexing. Hence the overly repeated recommendation of including the use of a room analyzing program during integration efforts.

Roger that and tyty. I prolly wasn't clear. I've been using REW for about 8 months now and absolutely love it. For some strange reason the wife doesn't like the boom stand hanging over the sofa and wires running all around the walk ways so I do REW sessions, and then put everything away to keep happy wife happy life in check smile.gif

I recently added the second sub and haven't run REW with it yet. I'm going to incorporate a minidsp and play with positioning when I do though (not that I have a lot of placement options). Since I was like a kid at the candy store when the second sub came in I just did the quick gain match, place equidistant, run XT32, minor distance tweaks with sine wave at crossover frequency and an SPL meter, and some integration sanity checks with the SPL meter. I'm pretty sure they are integrated decently right now, but know when I have the time I can take it up a notch with the insights REW provides.

I really need to do some room treatments but then we are back on the happy wife happy life issue. I may be able to get away with some panels on the front wall behind the mains though, just not sure how worth while that would be.
post #8183 of 15163
Rythmik posts content which is of interest to me.

Thanks for all the technical gouge. I wasn't understanding the excursion graphs from last week very well either so this recent one cleared it up a lot for me. I greatly appreciate you sharing this knowledge.

Brian, Out of curiosity, what are your mains?
Edited by dstew100 - 2/4/13 at 8:23am
post #8184 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Roger that and tyty. I prolly wasn't clear. I've been using REW for about 8 months now and absolutely love it. For some strange reason the wife doesn't like the boom stand hanging over the sofa and wires running all around the walk ways so I do REW sessions, and then put everything away to keep happy wife happy life in check smile.gif

.......biggrin.gif

Gee. Funny. That's how things are at our place. A few days with REW up and running with a break of about two weeks or so and then REW up and running again. Like you, I'm currently in the REW on the shelf phase of our relationship. Next week I'll have cables all over the place with REW up and running again. biggrin.gif

Quote:
I recently added the second sub and haven't run REW with it yet. I'm going to incorporate a minidsp and play with positioning when I do though (not that I have a lot of placement options). Since I was like a kid at the candy store when the second sub came in I just did the quick gain match, place equidistant, run XT32, minor distance tweaks with sine wave at crossover frequency and an SPL meter, and some integration sanity checks with the SPL meter. I'm pretty sure they are integrated decently right now, but know when I have the time I can take it up a notch with the insights REW provides.

I really need to do some room treatments but then we are back on the happy wife happy life issue. I may be able to get away with some panels on the front wall behind the mains though, just not sure how worth while that would be.

Good to read you're a REW fan. Room analyzing programs are a type of sonic religion with me: "I was blind and now I can see." "Everybody needs to convert." That sort of thing. But no room treatments on this end of the web as the wife will cry if I try to plaster her walls with room treatments.

(Ahhhh, come on honey, you'll get use to them.)

Not going happen.

You mentioned a minidsp. Is one better using a minidsp vs the Anti-Mode we have? I'm all for what works the best to tame those peaks. Currently I tune with REW and then run Anti-Mode and XT but I want better and I feel I can only get better with better. Don't got no XT32 and to get XT32, I'd have to replace a recently upgraded AVR. frown.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/4/13 at 7:28am
post #8185 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

.......biggrin.gif

Gee. Funny. That's how things are at our place. A few days with REW up and running with a break of about two weeks or so and then REW up and running again. Like you, I'm currently in the REW on the shelf phase of our relationship. Next week I'll have cables all over the place with REW up and running again. biggrin.gif
Concerning REW set up permissible length of time and treatments...
I present a well thought out, rationale position based on sound scientific principles for each of these issues. I define and clearly present the benefits that will be achieved, yet somehow I don't even get close to success against an irrational and frankly unreasonable position rolleyes.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Good to read you're a REW fan. Room analyzing programs are a type of sonic religion with me: "I was blind and now I can see." "Everybody needs to convert."
Totally agree, I can't imagine not being able to measure the impact a change to my system actually made (now that I do measure). When I look back at me throwing hundreds and sometimes thousands at upgrades blindly it is just madness. REW rules. Fortunately I never bought into the cable craze that my dealer pushed hard. Isn't it awesome how today we can actually back up "I don't believe you" with real measurements we run on our own system and not just some claim that contradicts some other claim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You mentioned a minidsp. Is one better using a minidsp vs the Anti-Mode we have? I'm all for what works the best to tame those peaks. Currently I tune with REW and then run Anti-Mode and XT but I want better and I feel I can only get better with better. Don't got no XT32 and to get XT32, I'd have to replace a recently upgraded AVR. frown.gif
-

I don't think I'm strong enough with this stuff yet to say anything definitive but here are some thoughts which probably aren't anything you don't already know. Also I don't have direct experience with antimode, I've just read up on what it does and read many positive comments on it. I think since you have the antimode the difference XT32 would make, if any, is minimal. The XT32 advantage over XT is higher resolution filters on the sub, and you're already getting quality sub EQ.

Now on the minidsp vs antimode and audyssey technologies. Antimode and Audyssey are super automated and very easy to use. That's nice but unless you have the audyssey pro kit you really can't play with custom curves and manual EQ. That being said minidsp can do some really really complex things, beyond what I totally understand yet, and you can do totally manual EQ with it. It is an amazing little gadget with tons of kewl stuff (low pass, high pass, delays, crossovers, splitters/duplicators/multiplexers, more complex filters, boosters, attenuators, filter bandwidth controls, etc...). It's super Kewl, can be hard, can be awesome if done right, easy to screw up and do bad things, you know. It should be noted though that REW can suggest EQ filters for you, and with a minidsp REW can auto-configure the minidsp to apply them. How that compares to antimode and audyssey, ????????????????

The kewl thing is with REW we can measure what all these tools are doing. Not only in the final speaker output but you can run a loop through any of these devices and measure directly what it is doing to FR. I think we should be careful layering EQ on top of EQ, but with measuring, some trial and error, and patience we can get some great results.

What do you think?
post #8186 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post


Brian, Out of curiosity, what are your mains?

Do you mean the speakers I want to get? biggrin.gif That would be Avalon or Magico.

But in real life, I have a pair of 340SE, not because I don't want Magico, but because I have to make sure the sub sounds good even with mid-priced bargain speakers. The imaging capability of 340SE is very good. I ran Chesky test CD for the soundstage map, it is very big and precise. One of the tracks is a band chanting and playing around the mic, I can just hear them circling my 340SE (from the right of the right speakers, goes behind the speakers and go to the left of the left speakers, and then to the front of the speakers, and continue to circle). There is another one testing the height of sound image by running a shaker from the bottom of the floor, up to the mic and then continue to move up by the announcer (with his hand of course). Most speakers do not have problem for the first half. But the second half is more challenging: able to clearly hear the shaker is reaching the top.
post #8187 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

What do you think?

Where do I sign up. tongue.gif

(It's all good honey, I just need this one more DSP. And the president would be proud of you letting me stimulate the economy in this fashion.)

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 2/4/13 at 9:10am
post #8188 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post


Brian, Out of curiosity, what are your mains?

Do you mean the speakers I want to get? biggrin.gif That would be Avalon or Magico.

But in real life, I have a pair of 340SE, not because I don't want Magico, but because I have to make sure the sub sounds good even with mid-priced bargain speakers. The imaging capability of 340SE is very good. I ran Chesky test CD for the soundstage map, it is very big and precise. One of the tracks is a band chanting and playing around the mic, I can just hear them circling my 340SE (from the right of the right speakers, goes behind the speakers and go to the left of the left speakers, and then to the front of the speakers, and continue to circle). There is another one testing the height of sound image by running a shaker from the bottom of the floor, up to the mic and then continue to move up by the announcer (with his hand of course). Most speakers do not have problem for the first half. But the second half is more challenging: able to clearly hear the shaker is reaching the top.

Those Avalon's are works of art. Do It, Do It. I wonder what those LCR's run for, they look very interesting to me. The higher end ones look amazing, I need to hear them some time.

I need to get something for imaging tests. Which Chesky CD do you recommend, it appears there are several. My imaging tests right now are very sophisticated. Do instruments sound like they are at different places between the speakers? Does my wife think the center channel is playing? Yup, good, lol. (Brian just cringed).

I've heard my 805s be criticized for poor off axis response so the imaging sweet spot is pretty small. Seems big enough for my seat smile.gif

EDIT: BTW your post made me look up the tracks on the CD which in turn caused me to make a Jazz/Phil Woods pandora station. Thanks.
post #8189 of 15163
I play 'The bass I love' on YouTube via my Denon AirPlay and it sounds fine on my FV15hp (550W). I was playing at -10db volume with sub 6db hot. Really did not know what a single digit Hertz sound like (feel like I should say). Wow, lots of air movement like a big fan blowing at full speed. I have not seen the driver moving so much since owning this sub. I was a little scare to crank the volume up pass that. Just curious what instrument used to play that single digit note?
post #8190 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

I play 'The bass I love' on YouTube via my Denon AirPlay and it sounds fine on my FV15hp (550W). I was playing at -10db volume with sub 6db hot. Really did not know what a single digit Hertz sound like (feel like I should say). Wow, lots of air movement like a big fan blowing at full speed. I have not seen the driver moving so much since owning this sub. I was a little scare to crank the volume up pass that. Just curious what instrument used to play that single digit note?

A suggestion, get uncompressed recorded material for demo purposes as the YouTube stuff is very compressed using lossy compression algorithms. YouTube recordings destroy the ability of any system to be evaluated. For evaluative purposes, just saying, YouTube recordings bad, uncompressed recordings played from a CD, good. The difference is night and day as to depth of image quality.
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