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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 283

post #8461 of 15160
I have a FV15HP and I noticed that flapping issue while watching Dredd at the classroom scene. I have mine set to 14hz extension high damper. What's the negative of setting the damper to low?
post #8462 of 15160
^^
As far as I understand, bass is not as clean setting it to low damping, but it has more of the boom sound for movie.
post #8463 of 15160
^^
As far as I understand, bass is not as clean setting it to low damping, but it has more of the boom sound for movie.
post #8464 of 15160
just wondering what is the cut off for someone to got to FV15H as opposed to LV12 in terms of room size. Also vice versa when can some one know that LV12 is good enough and any thing more is an over kill?
post #8465 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos 
:I have a FV15HP and I noticed that flapping issue while watching Dredd at the classroom scene. I have mine set to 14hz extension high damper. What's the negative of setting the damper to low?


I read enough that the vented sub rolls off faster below 20Hz. Can any one with an F15HP comment on the said scenes in Tron:Legacy or Black Hawk Down if they also see any issues with their F15HPs just as folks with FV15HP are experiencing?
post #8466 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsmt2000 View Post

just wondering what is the cut off for someone to got to FV15H as opposed to LV12 in terms of room size. Also vice versa when can some one know that LV12 is good enough and any thing more is an over kill?

I think a lot of that comes down to personal preference; I wouldn't mind a FV15H in my small room for movies, although I'd probably have to tone it way down for music.
post #8467 of 15160
+1

I am perfectly happy with my F12 in a 20 x 25 x 10 room. I have the sub volume set at 12 o'clock and the AVR at -0.5dB. Even though the F12 is un-ported (sealed) and smaller than what others on this board and Rythmik recommends for a room my size it suits me and my wife perfectly. A big part of it comes down to knowing yourself and your preferences. Me, I like bass to fill out music and make movies exciting but I do not like it to the point that it makes the walls and windows rattle. So i asked questions, listened to opinions then made my decision based on what I felt was right for me.

On the plus side I don't have any port issues to deal with and I get to experience those frequencies that are below the tuning point on ported subs.
post #8468 of 15160


I need to explain a bit more on the excursion plot. It is a plot that when you apply signals of equal magnitude to the subwoofer, the excursion the driver will experience at various frequency points. The above is the excursion plot for 1 port mode with extension filter set to 14hz high damping. The output above 13hz is useful and the output below 13hz is just not so good. All speakers driver has excursion limit. It is equivalent to drawing a horizontal line to this plot. What is means out if there is an alternating signals of 8hz and 18hz, the 8hz signal will drive the subwoofer into over excursion when the excursion at 18hz can only achieve -6db down (which is half excursion or 1/4 of power, or reducing the capability of a 600WRMS power amp to the like of a 150WRMS amp). It is not good because all you hear is over-excursion and with 18hz not even driven to its full potential. Next look at the same 1 port mode, but 14hz low damping.



Again let us draw a horizontal line to this plot. Now if we have an alternating 8hz and 18hz signals, the18hz can now be played at full excursion potential. That is the main difference between low damping and high damping on FV15HP. It is subtle, but very important to understand. I have every concern that a roomEQ program will change our low damping curve into something like the high damping curve. It is very much like you want to put in salt and pepper to the soup and the chef comes out and give you a funny look: "don't change my soup, it is just right".

Now LV12 series does not have this flexibility and therefore, I set the lowest extension of something like the above (14hz low damping) so it is almost fool proof. But FV15HP is a higher end model and I want to keep in as flexible. The14hz high damping setting, even though is more vulnerable to over-excursion when the subsonic signal hits, has better group delay, and therefore better for some application. For instance, if the sound track already use subsonic filter to curtail excursion, a 14hz high damping can sound better because 14hz low damping can cut down subsonic signal even further down. The problem is there is no common agreement where subsonic filtering should be applied (there used to be, but some studios become creative and just started doing things differently).


-
Edited by Rythmik - 2/20/13 at 8:40am
post #8469 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post



I need to explain a bit more on the excursion plot. It is a plot that when you apply signals of equal magnitude to the subwoofer, the excursion the driver will experience at various frequency points. The above is the excursion plot for 1 port mode with extension filter set to 14hz high damping. The output above 13hz is useful and the output below 13hz is just not so good. All speakers driver has excursion limit. It is equivalent to drawing a horizontal line to this plot. What is means out if there is an alternating signals of 8hz and 18hz, the 8hz signal will drive the subwoofer into over excursion when the excursion at 18hz can only achieve -6db down (which is half excursion or 1/4 of power, or reducing the capability of a 600WRMS power amp to the like of a 150WRMS amp). It is not good because all you hear is over-excursion and with 18hz not even driven to its full potential. Next look at the same 1 port mode, but 14hz low damping.



Again let us draw a horizontal line to this plot. Now if we have an alternating 8hz and 18hz signals, the18hz can now be played at full excursion potential. That is the main difference between low damping and high damping on FV15HP. It is subtle, but very important to understand. I have every concern that a roomEQ program will change our low damping curve into something like the high damping curve. It is very much like you want to put in salt and pepper to the soup and the chef comes out and give you a funny look: "don't change my soup, it is just right".

Now LV12 series does not have this flexibility and therefore, I set the lowest extension of something like the above (14hz low damping) so it is almost fool proof. But FV15HP is a higher end model and I want to keep in as flexible. The14hz high damping setting, even though is more vulnerable to over-excursion when the subsonic signal hits, has better group delay, and therefore better for some application. For instance, if the sound track already use subsonic filter to curtail excursion, a 14hz high damping can sound better because 14hz low damping can cut down subsonic signal even further down. The problem is there is no common agreement where subsonic filtering should be applied (there used to be, but some studios become creative and just started doing things differently).


-

So is the flapping sound overexcursion? I heard that on the video where the guys played 10Hz and recorded the blanket moving from the air movement. Will that damage the driver? It sound like it would. I got it when I played a 10-19Hz signal but not nearly like the guys got on that video, it seems dangerous to me... so if I run high damping one port and 14Hz, and do get hit with a low signal that occasionally, do I just have to put up with the sound on the rare occasion it happens or do I have to worry about driver damage?
post #8470 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

do I have to worry about driver damage?
You have to worry about driver damage. What you're hearing is your sub's way of telling you "Don't Do That!". Your options are to change the tuning, turn it down, or add another sub, so that you can go as low and loud as you want to. If you're serious about your bass you should have two anyway, to smooth room modes.
post #8471 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

...I have every concern that a roomEQ program will change our low damping curve into something like the high damping curve... "don't change my soup, it is just right".
-

HaHa, put steak sauce on one I make and you're not invited back. Well, for steak at least.

Great informative post Brian, tytytyty
post #8472 of 15160
Question about the bass extension toggle on the rear of the LV12R. The switch is a three way toggle but I am confused by the labeling of the switch. The switch from top to bottom says mid, low, high. Is it correct that the low dampening is in the middle?


Edited by turbosol16 - 2/20/13 at 5:04pm
post #8473 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post



I need to explain a bit more on the excursion plot. It is a plot that when you apply signals of equal magnitude to the subwoofer, the excursion the driver will experience at various frequency points. The above is the excursion plot for 1 port mode with extension filter set to 14hz high damping. The output above 13hz is useful and the output below 13hz is just not so good. All speakers driver has excursion limit. It is equivalent to drawing a horizontal line to this plot. What is means out if there is an alternating signals of 8hz and 18hz, the 8hz signal will drive the subwoofer into over excursion when the excursion at 18hz can only achieve -6db down (which is half excursion or 1/4 of power, or reducing the capability of a 600WRMS power amp to the like of a 150WRMS amp). It is not good because all you hear is over-excursion and with 18hz not even driven to its full potential. Next look at the same 1 port mode, but 14hz low damping.



Again let us draw a horizontal line to this plot. Now if we have an alternating 8hz and 18hz signals, the18hz can now be played at full excursion potential. That is the main difference between low damping and high damping on FV15HP. It is subtle, but very important to understand. I have every concern that a roomEQ program will change our low damping curve into something like the high damping curve. It is very much like you want to put in salt and pepper to the soup and the chef comes out and give you a funny look: "don't change my soup, it is just right".

Now LV12 series does not have this flexibility and therefore, I set the lowest extension of something like the above (14hz low damping) so it is almost fool proof. But FV15HP is a higher end model and I want to keep in as flexible. The14hz high damping setting, even though is more vulnerable to over-excursion when the subsonic signal hits, has better group delay, and therefore better for some application. For instance, if the sound track already use subsonic filter to curtail excursion, a 14hz high damping can sound better because 14hz low damping can cut down subsonic signal even further down. The problem is there is no common agreement where subsonic filtering should be applied (there used to be, but some studios become creative and just started doing things differently).


-

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

So is the flapping sound overexcursion? I heard that on the video where the guys played 10Hz and recorded the blanket moving from the air movement. Will that damage the driver? It sound like it would. I got it when I played a 10-19Hz signal but not nearly like the guys got on that video, it seems dangerous to me... so if I run high damping one port and 14Hz, and do get hit with a low signal that occasionally, do I just have to put up with the sound on the rare occasion it happens or do I have to worry about driver damage?

Interesting information, Brian. I don't know the video mikepos is referencing, but that sounds exactly like the issue I've been having. My FV15HP has tons of air movement and the loud flapping at 20Hz and moderate volumes. I am an Audyssey user. I wonder if it's possible to unplug the sub, run Audyssey, then plug the sub back in. Any EQing could be done on the sub itself. This is obviously not an ideal work around (I think Audyssey is fantastic for the most part), but maybe a possibility to use Audyssey and keep it from messing with the sub.
post #8474 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

But FV15HP is a higher end model and I want to keep in as flexible. The14hz high damping setting, even though is more vulnerable to over-excursion when the subsonic signal hits, has better group delay, and therefore better for some application. For instance, if the sound track already use subsonic filter to curtail excursion, a 14hz high damping can sound better because 14hz low damping can cut down subsonic signal even further down. The problem is there is no common agreement where subsonic filtering should be applied (there used to be, but some studios become creative and just started doing things differently).
What if I have a device that can filter off sub 20Hz signal (example the Antimode has subsonic filter that filters off anything below 20Hz), can I just set the FV15HP subwoofer to 14Hz Hi-Damping in 1 port mode for best audio quality? Or should I set it to 20Hz Hi-Damping in 2 ports mode? What I'm after is the best audio quality for movies down to 20Hz (I don't need those subsonic/infrasonic). What is the best setting then?
post #8475 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

My FV15HP has tons of air movement and the loud flapping at 20Hz and moderate volumes.
Could you please play this 20Hz test tone audio track (I got it from Brian) on -20dB master volume?
WARNING from Brian: Do NOT play it for more than 10 seconds continuously.
20hz_mono.zip 188k .zip file
Do you hear any flapping port noise?
I have this problem before. The problem was the port is leaking air. The faulty unit is replaced with a new unit. Problem solved.
post #8476 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Could you please play this 20Hz test tone audio track (I got it from Brian) on -20dB master volume?
WARNING from Brian: Do NOT play it for more than 10 seconds continuously.
20hz_mono.zip 188k .zip file
Do you hear any flapping port noise?
I have this problem before. The problem was the port is leaking air. The faulty unit is replaced with a new unit. Problem solved.

Brian sent me the same test tone (already burned on a CD and with a portable CD player and 1/8" to RCA cable -- talk about customer service!). I hear the flapping noise with the CD player plugged directly into the sub. It almost sounds like a machine gun -- it's quite loud over the test tone. Brian confirmed it as port noise.

Leaking air? Interesting. I'm working with Brian to resolve the issue. I'm sure the unit will be replaced if it's indeed faulty. I bought it about a month and a half ago.
post #8477 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post


Interesting information, Brian. I don't know the video mikepos is referencing, but that sounds exactly like the issue I've been having. My FV15HP has tons of air movement and the loud flapping at 20Hz and moderate volumes. I am an Audyssey user. I wonder if it's possible to unplug the sub, run Audyssey, then plug the sub back in. Any EQing could be done on the sub itself. This is obviously not an ideal work around (I think Audyssey is fantastic for the most part), but maybe a possibility to use Audyssey and keep it from messing with the sub.

AFAIK, I don't think that will work. Audyssey will be disabled if you add a speaker after it has been run.

Ideally you should measure the sub's FR and possibly the sub out on the AVR to see what Audyssey is doing to the sub. This would give you an idea if Audyssey is boosting something that is causing the problem. If you don't have a way to measure, I would suggest running Audyssey with the FV15HP with both ports open, 28hz low damping and rumble filter on. This should create the least low end boost from Audyssey. After, you can tweak the settings on the sub to what sounds best and still does not push the sub to its limits.

-Mike
post #8478 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

^^^
Steve, do you already have F12? Or are you thinking the possibility of getting A370PEQ3 to go with OB (before A370PEQ become available again in Apr) . If you don't care about limiter function and you don't use LFE inputs (as it will mess up the FR), then you can just replace the servo board and it will work with GR OB drivers.


I have a pair of F12s now, and was wondering if I could still use the amps if I decided to go OB using the GR drivers.

If it is a matter of replacing the servo board, how tricky is that?

Also, from your point of view, would there be any major difference in quality between the two? Obviously the F12s will play louder than the OBs.
post #8479 of 15160
Sreve---I believe you can send Brian the plate amps back for him to change the amp for OB use, or have a local tech do it (Brian will email you the changes to be made.). As for sound, Brian can tell you how they differ as he has, of course, heard them both. So can Danny at GR.
Edited by BDP24 - 2/21/13 at 3:10am
post #8480 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

You have to worry about driver damage. What you're hearing is your sub's way of telling you "Don't Do That!". Your options are to change the tuning, turn it down, or add another sub, so that you can go as low and loud as you want to. If you're serious about your bass you should have two anyway, to smooth room modes.

I know not to let the sub go on like that, my question is will it happening through a fluke recording like these described cause instant damage. I'm in a small room and don't think it's a problem for me and I want to leave medium or high damping, if I'm not experiencing this problem with my listening do I have to b econcerned about the fluke happening? I suspect many others have the same question.
post #8481 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post


Interesting information, Brian. I don't know the video mikepos is referencing, but that sounds exactly like the issue I've been having. My FV15HP has tons of air movement and the loud flapping at 20Hz and moderate volumes. I am an Audyssey user. I wonder if it's possible to unplug the sub, run Audyssey, then plug the sub back in. Any EQing could be done on the sub itself. This is obviously not an ideal work around (I think Audyssey is fantastic for the most part), but maybe a possibility to use Audyssey and keep it from messing with the sub.

Here's the video. To be clear I've only watched this on my laptop so I may be off base, but Itseems like the driver is taking an awful beating to me. Also I'm wondering if this is the noise people are refering to as "flapping". I wouldn';t describe it as a machine gun, rate of fire far too slow... but I've shot full auto so maybe I'm being overly analytical .tongue.gif.

Forgot the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqO6zdfIK70
Edited by mikepos - 2/21/13 at 2:14pm
post #8482 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Brian sent me the same test tone (already burned on a CD and with a portable CD player and 1/8" to RCA cable -- talk about customer service!). I hear the flapping noise with the CD player plugged directly into the sub. It almost sounds like a machine gun -- it's quite loud over the test tone. Brian confirmed it as port noise.

Leaking air? Interesting. I'm working with Brian to resolve the issue. I'm sure the unit will be replaced if it's indeed faulty. I bought it about a month and a half ago.

Woody,

I will check on Saturday when I got to Denver. I check the weather: no snow on Saturday. I wish I would bring my family for a ski. But the downside for that is it will take away my 2 working days plus a few more days of sore and ache smile.gif
post #8483 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbosol16 View Post

Question about the bass extension toggle on the rear of the LV12R. The switch is a three way toggle but I am confused by the labeling of the switch. The switch from top to bottom says mid, low, high. Is it correct that the low dampening is in the middle?


That is correct.
post #8484 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

If it is a matter of replacing the servo board, how tricky is that?

Not tricky at all. Unscrew to screws mounting the daughter board and gently yank a 12pin connector to unplug the servo board. Then reverse the process to install the servo board for OB.
post #8485 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

That is correct.
Thank you I have been running it in mid thinking it was low for movies. Sounded great with mid extension will have to try low next time.
post #8486 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Please send me the pdf version after you are done. It will help other customers.
Send it to you. I'm not sure your email, which I found in this thread, right, so tell me if U didn't get it.
post #8487 of 15160
Just thought I would pop back in and say hello to new owners. I have had my FV15HP with the 550 amp for the last couple months now and this things rocks. After getting the Emotiva CMX module to get rid of the hum in my amp I am guessing that was caused by DC offset I have had zero issues with my sub.

I couple weeks ago I decided to put in The Hurt Locker and man that opening scene with the bomb blast is crazy. I seriously think I watched it over and over again about 10 times and amount of pressurization in my room was unreal. So does anyone else have certain scenes or movies overall that like to use when wanting some bass in da face.
post #8488 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smigro View Post

Just thought I would pop back in and say hello to new owners. I have had my FV15HP with the 550 amp for the last couple months now and this things rocks. After getting the Emotiva CMX module to get rid of the hum in my amp I am guessing that was caused by DC offset I have had zero issues with my sub.

I couple weeks ago I decided to put in The Hurt Locker and man that opening scene with the bomb blast is crazy. I seriously think I watched it over and over again about 10 times and amount of pressurization in my room was unreal. So does anyone else have certain scenes or movies overall that like to use when wanting some bass in da face.

So far I really haven't come across anything that tops WOW chapter 5 for serious bass.
post #8489 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

So far I really haven't come across anything that tops WOW chapter 5 for serious bass.

I haven't seen WOW, so I can't compare, but I don't think I've ever heard bass as impressive as in Dark Knight Rises, anytime the batmobile shows up. Extremely deep and room-shaking, and that's even with my current subs whose in-room response starts rolling off pretty quick at about 28 Hz (no, they're not Rythmik . . . yet).
post #8490 of 15160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Woody,

I will check on Saturday when I got to Denver. I check the weather: no snow on Saturday. I wish I would bring my family for a ski. But the downside for that is it will take away my 2 working days plus a few more days of sore and ache smile.gif

That's why I don't ski smile.gif I've lived here all my life and only been up to the slopes twice.

It's snowing right now... never enough for a snow day though mad.gif

Saturday should be nice... 50 degrees and sunny.
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