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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 290

post #8671 of 9641
3/13/13 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by realjetavenger View Post

Well, even though I wasn't really ready to purchase a sub just yet, I couldn't pass up on the sale. So, I just ordered an F12 in black matte with the silver cone driver. The photos of this setup earlier in this thread convinced me that would be a good look even though it is somewhat counter-intuitive. Matte black would tend to blend in the room better than the piano finish but then the silver cone adds the bling. Yet the pictures shows it works.

So, anyway. I have an E15 in the main room and love it. The F12 will be going in a smaller mini-theater/bedroom. Yeah, it is probably totally overkill for that room. But, the heart wants what the heart wants. smile.gif

Now, let's wait and see how the L12 turns out. There's that computer room set up that could also use a sub...eek.gif

That's what I'm working on right now. I decided to quit using computer speakers even though mine were pretty decent (Bose Companion 5). I pulled an old AVR and sub out of the closet, swiped a pair of Klipsch Quintet III's from their surround duties, bought a Dragonfly DAC and hooked up a 2.1 system for the computer keeping the L&R speakers on the desktop. This system is in my office which is pretty small, 176 sq ft or 1,400 cu ft.

The improvement in sound quality, even with old inexpensive equipment is amazing. The DAC plays a big role here. Now to upgrade the speakers amp. I have an F12 in the living room but putting one in the office would also be major overkill, if I could even find the floor space to put it. I'm hoping the L12 will work. This system will strictly be 2.1 (mini monitors + sub) music at moderate to low volume (I have to be able to get some work done after-all biggrin.gif).

While waiting on the L12 to be ready I guess I can decide what mini monitors and amp to get.
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post #8672 of 9641
3/13/13 at 8:46pm
Has anyone here ever heard a story of someone who has purchased a Rythimk and been disappointed in the end result which could be attribute to the subwoofer itself and not the room, integration technique, user error, or defective component which Rythmik resolved?
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post #8673 of 9641
3/13/13 at 8:58pm
Looking for some opinions. Narrowed my sub search to a F15/D15 SE (on sale for $75 more). Is one any better? D15 is slighter smaller, with a better finish, would there be any difference in performance?

My room is sealed, about 1600 cubic feet, have only one place to put the sub, in a corner. Mix of music and movies.

My other option, is the PSA XS30. Any thoughts on the strengths or benefits of either choice. Will drop an email to Brian and Tom soon to get their input.
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post #8674 of 9641
3/14/13 at 4:50am
There is one who sold his and went DIY. I can assume there are others, but these seems to be rare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Has anyone here ever heard a story of someone who has purchased a Rythimk and been disappointed in the end result which could be attribute to the subwoofer itself and not the room, integration technique, user error, or defective component which Rythmik resolved?
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post #8675 of 9641
3/14/13 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Has anyone here ever heard a story of someone who has purchased a Rythimk and been disappointed in the end result which could be attribute to the subwoofer itself and not the room, integration technique, user error, or defective component which Rythmik resolved?
Not really sure, but you don't see too many on the used market. So I guess people seem to be happy with them. smile.gifsmile.gif
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post #8676 of 9641
3/14/13 at 2:12pm
I read somewhere (can't remember exactly), about a new sealed 12" sub. Is this replacing the current sealed 12" offered by Rythmik? I almost called to order the new LV12 but it is a bit too big for my set up. Plus I am looking for a sub for a computer/vinyl audio only set up. I know a vented sub will be fine, but I rather have a smaller sealed one.
Does anybody think they will offer a intro price of the new sealed sub to be similar as the current LV12? 550 really is my limit budget wise.
Thanks for any info you can give
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post #8677 of 9641
3/14/13 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by volta View Post

I read somewhere (can't remember exactly), about a new sealed 12" sub. Is this replacing the current sealed 12" offered by Rythmik? I almost called to order the new LV12 but it is a bit too big for my set up. Plus I am looking for a sub for a computer/vinyl audio only set up. I know a vented sub will be fine, but I rather have a smaller sealed one.
Does anybody think they will offer a intro price of the new sealed sub to be similar as the current LV12? 550 really is my limit budget wise.
Thanks for any info you can give

Search this thread for L12. Brian is currently working on this model which is a sealed 12" at a lower price point than the F12 which will still be available.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/7620#post_22730418
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post #8678 of 9641
3/14/13 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by realjetavenger View Post

Search this thread for L12. Brian is currently working on this model which is a sealed 12" at a lower price point than the F12 which will still be available.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/7620#post_22730418

That's the one. I'm an idiot. I was trying to remember where I saw it mentioned, and it turns out it was here. :P
Good, I was trying to figure out how to get the new LV12 before the sale ends, but now I think I will hold off and wait for the sealed version. Hopefully they offer a nice intro price as well.
I've started reading this thread backwards so I'm slowly catching up on the news.
Thanks for the link
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post #8679 of 9641
3/15/13 at 7:20am
Dynamic EQ

I have another customer, Jack, has a FV15HP-550 and he cannot even play his past -30db without the sub generating sound like it is bottoming out. He traced the problem to DynamicEQ and his AVR is Denon2310.

Here is the problem of DynamicEQ. DynamicEQ is implemented in DSP (digital domain processing). It has a fixed number of digits in the digital domain (whether it is crude 16bit, or more advanced 24bit, or the ultra high resolution 32bit), the objective is to make best use of the more significant bits. If we say don't use the top 3 bits in a 16bit digital system, we literally degenerate the system into a 16-3=13bit digital sytem which is not good. So we need to know the fact that the more significant bits are already being used. Next, dynamicEQ is implemented in digital domain processing, not analog domain. If we boost the signal in digital domain, we need to increase the digital representation of the signal. In another words, we multiply the signal by a factor. If we multiply by a factor of say 4x (which is 12db), that shifts the number upward towards the MSB by 2 bits. The risk of such operation is "over-flow". Over-flow is the MSB are truccated. Signal reversal is common in this case. That is different from analog clipping which is saturation (not signal reversal). So in short, it is not a wise thing to do. Increasing the sub channel level is far less problematic because it is done by a digital potentiometer and it almost achieves the same result.

So in short, if you don't have to turn on DynamicEQ, please don't. Why, one may ask, the problem was not a problem on El cheapo subs? Because those subs have limited resolution, it sounded broken already. Any additional anomaly will be masked (vastly).

After Jack fixed the problem (along with other problems he also uncovered in this process), he is now able to play THX Life test at reference level and the entire room feels like the epic center of the earthquake when the mushrooms is on the screen.

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Edited by Rythmik - 3/15/13 at 7:39am
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post #8680 of 9641
3/15/13 at 7:50am
Brian,

Is it okay to run my LV12R up to 6db hot through receiver with my gain set to the 12 o'clock position if listening at moderate levels and not reference? I just want to make sure I don't damage the subwoofer. Sometimes I see the green light on the amplifier flashing on extreme bass heavy scenes.
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post #8681 of 9641
3/15/13 at 8:00am
Even though I wasn't experiencing the bottoming out issue with my F12, after reading the posts about dynamic EQ I went into My AVR (Marantz SR 5007) and turned Dynamic EQ off. This made an audible improvement in the already great F12 at normal listening levels. I guess it is wisest to alyays set dynamic EQ off at first and only turn it on when you actually need it.
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post #8682 of 9641
3/15/13 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Dynamic EQ

I have another customer, Jack, has a FV15HP-550 and he cannot even play his past -30db without the sub generating sound like it is bottoming out. He traced the problem to DynamicEQ and his AVR is Denon2310.

Here is the problem of DynamicEQ. DynamicEQ is implemented in DSP (digital domain processing). It has a fixed number of digits in the digital domain (whether it is crude 16bit, or more advanced 24bit, or the ultra high resolution 32bit), the objective is to make best use of the more significant bits. If we say don't use the top 3 bits in a 16bit digital system, we literally degenerate the system into a 16-3=13bit digital sytem which is not good. So we need to know the fact that the more significant bits are already being used. Next, dynamicEQ is implemented in digital domain processing, not analog domain. If we boost the signal in digital domain, we need to increase the digital representation of the signal. In another words, we multiply the signal by a factor. If we multiply by a factor of say 4x (which is 12db), that shifts the number upward towards the MSB by 2 bits. The risk of such operation is "over-flow". Over-flow is the MSB are truccated. Signal reversal is common in this case. That is different from analog clipping which is saturation (not signal reversal). So in short, it is not a wise thing to do. Increasing the sub channel level is far less problematic because it is done by a digital potentiometer and it almost achieves the same result.

So in short, if you don't have to turn on DynamicEQ, please don't. Why, one may ask, the problem was not a problem on El cheapo subs? Because those subs have limited resolution, it sounded broken already. Any additional anomaly will be masked (vastly).
Thanks for the insights Brian. Dynamic EQ is off for good in my system. As a programmer I've had lots of painful experience with stuff like this, floating point issues, and bit wise operation pain. Fortunately I get to run on full up nice PC's so using larger variable sizes, doubles and such usually isn't an issue as long as you don't abuse it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

After Jack fixed the problem (along with other problems he also uncovered in this process), he is now able to play THX Life test at reference level and the entire room feels like the epic center of the earthquake when the mushrooms is on the screen.
-

Excellent, bet he's having fun with that.
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post #8683 of 9641
3/15/13 at 5:57pm
This is amp to sub connection question. The NAD C326BEE integrated stereo amp has L&R preouts and 2 sub preouts (sub1 & sub 2). These are not LFE outputs. The L&R preouts are intended to be connected to the L&R inputs of the power amp section of the amp (both pre and power amps are in one chassis but not permanently connected internally so you could actually connect the preamp to a separate power amp).

The sub preouts provide a mono signal from 200 Hz down (not an LFE signal). I am going to want to limit the bass signal to 60 Hz to the sub so I have to use the line level inputs. That way I don't bypass the sub's crossover control. Do I need to connect the single sub cable to the L or R line level input or do I need to get a Y adapter and if so should I connect it to the single sub cable from "sub 1" and then to the L&R line level inputs on the sub or do I need 2 Y adapters connected to the L&R prepouts on the amp then to both the L&R inputs of the power amp and sub?
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post #8684 of 9641
3/15/13 at 6:16pm
Just plug he sub1 output into the L sub input with a single (mono) cable. Using a Y into noth L and R sub inputs provides a gain boost (but no higher output) if the preamp's sub output signal is too low but chances are you'll be fine.
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post #8685 of 9641
3/15/13 at 7:54pm
Thanks. Thought it would be simple but just wanted to make sure.
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post #8686 of 9641
3/15/13 at 9:21pm
i am wondering if having two active filters have a negative effect on the sub..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

This is amp to sub connection question. The NAD C326BEE integrated stereo amp has L&R preouts and 2 sub preouts (sub1 & sub 2). These are not LFE outputs. The L&R preouts are intended to be connected to the L&R inputs of the power amp section of the amp (both pre and power amps are in one chassis but not permanently connected internally so you could actually connect the preamp to a separate power amp).

The sub preouts provide a mono signal from 200 Hz down (not an LFE signal). I am going to want to limit the bass signal to 60 Hz to the sub so I have to use the line level inputs. That way I don't bypass the sub's crossover control. Do I need to connect the single sub cable to the L or R line level input or do I need to get a Y adapter and if so should I connect it to the single sub cable from "sub 1" and then to the L&R line level inputs on the sub or do I need 2 Y adapters connected to the L&R prepouts on the amp then to both the L&R inputs of the power amp and sub?
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post #8687 of 9641
3/16/13 at 6:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

i am wondering if having two active filters have a negative effect on the sub..
No. The main effect is that their slopes are added. For instance, if the AVR and sub both have 12dB/octave filters (2nd order) when cascaded you have a 24dB/octave (4th order) filter. A higher order filter is far more effective in keeping above bandwidth directional frequencies out of the sub. In this case the poster would have one slope above 60 Hz and then a steeper slope above 200Hz. When used with an LFE out you can cascade both the AVR and sub amps filters at the same frequency.
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post #8688 of 9641
3/16/13 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

No. The main effect is that their slopes are added. For instance, if the AVR and sub both have 12dB/octave filters (2nd order) when cascaded you have a 24dB/octave (4th order) filter. A higher order filter is far more effective in keeping above bandwidth directional frequencies out of the sub. In this case the poster would have one slope above 60 Hz and then a steeper slope above 200Hz. When used with an LFE out you can cascade both the AVR and sub amps filters at the same frequency.

Would this still hold true given that this amp is a 2 channel stereo amp not an AVR and the sub out is not an LFE channel? It combines the signals from the L&R channels then passes them through a 200 Hz LPF.
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post #8689 of 9641
3/16/13 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

After Jack fixed the problem (along with other problems he also uncovered in this process), he is now able to play THX Life test at reference level and the entire room feels like the epic center of the earthquake when the mushrooms is on the screen.

This may sound like a dumb question on my part, but when one says they're playing at reference, to me that says they have their MVC turned to +/-0 but this doesn't tell me what the in room listening level was during playback; measured SPL.

As an example, I ran this clip through our system using the desktop PC's (XONAR, Essence, STX soundcard) analogue headphone out (with an inline isolator to eliminate ground loop buzz from 13mV down to 0.1mV) to the analogue Aux in for our Marantz, SR5007 and although the MVC was set to +/-0, the max dB reading was 91dB. Mostly, the readings of the playback, using a calibrated, Type 2 SLM, measured at the MLP, was in the 70dB - 82dB range.

Yes, I understand these readings are well within the published THX standard of 85dB - 105dB ("slider 7" for a movie theater's sound system).....hence my question; what was the SPL reading in your customer's listening room during playback? I ask so I have a comparative example, your customer's system to our system.

TIA.

(the details in the above are posted so you reasonably know what I think to be pertinent specifics regarding our playback system)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/16/13 at 1:17pm
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post #8690 of 9641
3/16/13 at 1:24pm
Beeman. All measurements are to be calibrated to the main listening position. That's the point of a "reference". The point being that regardless of room everyone hears the same volume (assuming capable speakers and subs) at the main listening position where the calibration was made.
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post #8691 of 9641
3/16/13 at 2:09pm
I've had the F12SE for a year now and just come back to this topic to say that I'm very pleased with it. One of the good purchase decisions I've made. Keep up the good work, Brian.
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post #8692 of 9641
3/16/13 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Beeman. All measurements are to be calibrated to the main listening position. That's the point of a "reference". The point being that regardless of room everyone hears the same volume (assuming capable speakers and subs) at the main listening position where the calibration was made.

Thanks for the thought. Just saying, I think we both know that I know and understand your above. tongue.gif

Out of curiosity, if taken, I'm just asking Brian what the measurements were and nothing more.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/16/13 at 3:21pm
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post #8693 of 9641
3/16/13 at 2:19pm
dbl post.
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post #8694 of 9641
3/16/13 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

This may sound like a dumb question on my part, but when one says they're playing at reference, to me that says they have their MVC turned to +/-0 but this doesn't tell me what the in room listening level was during playback; measured SPL.

Not only the reading depends on the room, it also depends on playback material. (Jack just wanted to give me an idea the difference it can make with the correct adjustment). If you notice, the THX life test is not a very demanding test. The entire piece is a bit quiet. On the other hand, tracks like U571 has other sound (water splahing and others), I will wear ear plugs if I have to watch the enire movie at reference level. But that does not mean we don't do tests that way. You just have to turn all the other F/C/B channels way down to make it more bearable. But that is no way of enjoying a movie. You haven't mentioned the type of front speakers. The sealed front speakers is 4db less efficient than a ported speakers. That is another factor. A MVC with sealed front speakers will have that much lower SPL reading han one with vented front speakers.
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post #8695 of 9641
3/16/13 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post

Brian,

Is it okay to run my LV12R up to 6db hot through receiver with my gain set to the 12 o'clock position if listening at moderate levels and not reference? I just want to make sure I don't damage the subwoofer. Sometimes I see the green light on the amplifier flashing on extreme bass heavy scenes.

If the flashing is only on extreme heavy scenes, then it will be fine. Keep in mind, most amplifiers do not even have that indicator.
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post #8696 of 9641
3/16/13 at 7:29pm
Which Rythmik amp models have this feature ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

If the flashing is only on extreme heavy scenes, then it will be fine. Keep in mind, most amplifiers do not even have that indicator.
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post #8697 of 9641
3/16/13 at 7:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

You haven't mentioned the type of front speakers. The sealed front speakers is 4db less efficient than a ported speakers. That is another factor. A MVC with sealed front speakers will have that much lower SPL reading han one with vented front speakers.

Our speakers? The mains are Klipsch, Epic, CF-3's; sensitivity: 100dB/1w/1m. The center channel is a Klipsch, RC-64 II; sensitivity: 99dB/1w/1m. And the surrounds are a pair of Klipsch, KSP-S6; sensitivity: 94dB/1w/1m. The mains are vented speakers.

I was just curious how loud his room went while having the MVC set to +/-0. The question is nothing more than a curiosity question as personally, I'm sorting through the concept of esoteric vs real world theater application vs Home Theater application.

As you mentioned about the need for ear plugs, I'm working to better understand playback levels vs playback standards as obviously, the two concepts do a terrible job of meeting in the middle.
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post #8698 of 9641
3/16/13 at 7:55pm
Has anyone done the CEA 2m of the F15 or FV15 below 20Hz? I was curious at the output at 15Hz, but even the Audioholic review of the FV15HP does not show the CEA test below 20Hz, and I have not seen results anywhere else. Rythmik site does not show as well. Is this intentional? Sub is claimed to go done to 14Hz, but no SPL numbers are given. Anyone with information?
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post #8699 of 9641
3/16/13 at 8:26pm
@anthonywoy

Extensive tests of the FV15HP can be found at this site. Tests are measured down to 10hz with the FV15HP able to produce a passing 12.5hz result.

In respect to the F15 vs the FV15HP below 20hz, I would say the latter would win via KO.
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post #8700 of 9641
3/16/13 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

No. The main effect is that their slopes are added. For instance, if the AVR and sub both have 12dB/octave filters (2nd order) when cascaded you have a 24dB/octave (4th order) filter. A higher order filter is far more effective in keeping above bandwidth directional frequencies out of the sub. In this case the poster would have one slope above 60 Hz and then a steeper slope above 200Hz. When used with an LFE out you can cascade both the AVR and sub amps filters at the same frequency.

Would this still hold true given that this amp is a 2 channel stereo amp not an AVR and the sub out is not an LFE channel? It combines the signals from the L&R channels then passes them through a 200 Hz LPF.

Substitute the words "preamp" or "receiver" or "integrated amp" for AVR... It does not matter for this. Your AVR does something similar when using bass management on musical sources instead of movies with an LFE channel.
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