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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 293

post #8761 of 9638
3/21/13 at 7:21pm
The F25 is a sexy looking sub but correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Rythmik web page show that the FV15HP still has a 1db advantage over the F25?
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post #8762 of 9638
3/21/13 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The F25 is a sexy looking sub but correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Rythmik web page show that the FV15HP still has a 1db advantage over the F25?

Same conversation in two places :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

According to the Rythmik web page the FV15HP still has a 1db advantage over the F25 though.

I could be wrong on this but...

I think that is at 20Hz with the FV15HP in max output 2port mode. I use max extension 1port mode, From what I can tell a lot of us FV15HP owners do 1port. So the F25 should pull ahead a tad vs FV15HP in max extension. Plus the F25 will perform better below the FV15HP's tune.

F25 looks like an incredible value to me.

Also Jim Wilson found a pic of that finish on the F12G
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html
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post #8763 of 9638
3/21/13 at 8:27pm
Yeah I figured I'd get a better response in the Rythmik thread.
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post #8764 of 9638
3/21/13 at 8:38pm
They are indeed persuasive wink.gif

I have to agree about the going price for the F25 - it looks very attractive. Does anyone remember the initial price of the F25?

It would indeed be interesting to compare the performance of the F25 vs the XS-30. The dimensions of the F25 actually work out larger than the SubM F2 but that is is a different price bracket altogether so a comparison would probably be unfair.
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post #8765 of 9638
3/21/13 at 8:44pm
If I remember correctly the F25 was around $1,800 when I was looking.. I think Brian should put the MSRP of the F25 back up to the original price and keep the sale price at $1,399. I would think that strategy would net some extra sales from the bargain hunters out there, they like to see the savings. Just a thought..
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post #8766 of 9638
3/21/13 at 8:46pm
It's probably not really fair to compare the F25 to a SubMersive F2. While there's no doubt Brian uses excellent drives then probably don't compare with the Seaton drivers and Seaton's amp's are quite a step up in power too.
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post #8767 of 9638
3/21/13 at 9:00pm
In terms of SQ, I've compared dual F12's, dual FV15HP's & dual SubM's (original 1000w amp) in the same room in the same positions and whilst each had its own unique sound signature (exceedingly close between the F12 and the FV15HP to my ears), I could simply not recommend any one sub over another. IMO, for a $870~ subwoofer to compare with a ~$2200 in terms of fidelity is mightily impressive. I know, audio memory is not the best, but I was able to listen to each setup over the course of 3 days using the same material as I already own the F12's & SubMs but was able to obtain the FV15HPs with much persuasion from a close friend.

For that reason, I don't think a comparison between the F2 and the F25 is completely unreasonable. In terms of SPL, I'm sure there would be a disparity there, but in terms of pure SQ/fidelity, it is very hard to best a Rythmik.
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post #8768 of 9638
3/21/13 at 9:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It's probably not really fair to compare the F25 to a SubMersive F2. While there's no doubt Brian uses excellent drives then probably don't compare with the Seaton drivers and Seaton's amp's are quite a step up in power too.

On a positive note, they'd both play equally loud in our place.......the wife would make sure of that. She starts grabbing her temples on anything above -15 on the MVC.

Boo-hoo for me. tongue.gif
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post #8769 of 9638
3/21/13 at 9:23pm
Would it be possible to remove the grill and attach feet to the front of an F12 to turn it into a downfiring mode? What I am looking for is high quality low bass extension for purely audiophile music at low listening levels (-30dB to -45dB) in a very tight space.

The main speakers are bass reflex bookshelves with -3db at 50 Hz. I will be sitting 2-3' from the sub. An enclosure with a 12" x 12" footprint and up to 18" tall would be ideal but Rhythmik doesn't make anything that small. The smallest sub they make is the F12 and in it's normal configuration it won't fit in the space I have. Even in a downfiring configuration it will only have 1/4" clearance at one wall.

The room is 176 sq ft with an 8 ft ceiling (1,408 cu ft) but then I'm sitting in a corner right next to the sub so the actual size of the room probably doesn't make much difference.

Thoughts, suggestions?
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post #8770 of 9638
3/21/13 at 9:24pm
Alright, who's pulling the trigger tonight? I'm peer pressuring this guy who's $500 budget turned into $1500 pretty quick. My wife already told me no. She loves the FV15HPs, as do I.
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post #8771 of 9638
3/21/13 at 9:28pm
RC-64 on the way so I am out..
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post #8772 of 9638
3/21/13 at 9:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by K5/SS View Post

RC-64 on the way so I am out..

Congratulations on your above purchase.

Regarding buying the RC-64 II, you'll find out quick enough this purchase prolly being the best Home Theater decision you ever made. I've had one for about six months now and it's been the best darn center channel.

I'm happy, happy, happy for you.

....biggrin.gif
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post #8773 of 9638
3/21/13 at 11:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

In terms of SQ, I've compared dual F12's, dual FV15HP's & dual SubM's (original 1000w amp) in the same room in the same positions and whilst each had its own unique sound signature (exceedingly close between the F12 and the FV15HP to my ears), I could simply not recommend any one sub over another. IMO, for a $870~ subwoofer to compare with a ~$2200 in terms of fidelity is mightily impressive. I know, audio memory is not the best, but I was able to listen to each setup over the course of 3 days using the same material as I already own the F12's & SubMs but was able to obtain the FV15HPs with much persuasion from a close friend.

For that reason, I don't think a comparison between the F2 and the F25 is completely unreasonable. In terms of SPL, I'm sure there would be a disparity there, but in terms of pure SQ/fidelity, it is very hard to best a Rythmik.
Does the Submersive sound as fast and detailed as the Rythmik? Does it blend as well with the mains? I love how the Rythmik sounds like sweet headphone bass, rather than most subs which give the music a boomy, black foundation that sounds too much like a fat, boxy speaker. How does the Submersive fare in this regard?
Mark Seaton told me over the phone that the Submersive had plenty of 'snap', and while I'm a Rythmik fan, I'd have to admit to being intrigued by that description.
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post #8774 of 9638
3/22/13 at 12:27am
In my room and my setup with the proper care taken to integrate the subs, they both blend seamlessly with neither drawing attention to itself. Having said that, both brands are very easy to integrate relative to some others I've had in the past.. and they were certainly not el-cheapo subs, either.

The SubM sounds superb for music (and of course movies) and is on par with the Rythmik in that regards. I think that is very high praise considering how Rythmik subs are famed for their articulation & accuracy. The SubM is really no different to MY EARS in terms of detail. I will say that the SubM has a subjectively more pleasing sound signature when it comes to more overt bass beats from artists like Deadmau5, Bass Mekanik etc or heavy rap/pop beats as it does indeed produce a nice 'kick' or 'snap' (this may have to do with its dynamic headroom vs the smaller Rythmiks at higher SPLs, though).

I think all the GTG threads show that the SubM rates very highly for music as well as movies.

I love both brands and use the Rythmik F12s in a stereo setup in a smaller space and the SubM's in a larger room for HT.
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post #8775 of 9638
3/22/13 at 4:41am
what is the advantage of using silver cone driver?
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post #8776 of 9638
3/22/13 at 5:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tronic307 View Post

Mark Seaton told me over the phone that the Submersive had plenty of 'snap', and while I'm a Rythmik fan, I'd have to admit to being intrigued by that description.

Mark may mean "snap" for a different thing, but a lot of other people equate snap with short note mid-bass boom. That itself is already a type of coloration. We seldom go to a live performance and say I wish the sound can have more snap. Snap, by definition, is like short note sound. But life music never sound like sound note sound as it has all the reverberation from the surrounding that adds extra reriched sound. Short note sound also means the detail of sound is buried and that is how that snap sound is easier to distinguish. It is like people comment "beautiful coloration saturation" on a photo. I bet no one would say the actual scene (where the photo was taken from) has beautiful color saturation. Actually, what we meant is if we can "re-paint" the building or everything in that scene, we will do it use the color in the photo. But that is a distortion of reality. Again, good saturation requires masking of detail. The best coloration saturation effect is on the small print where the detail of imperfection is all buried.

I know for some people the above argument sounds weak. I have been criticized before for overly using equivalence in a discussion. But one cannot blame me for that because the entire directservo is based on the ability to find "equivalent" T/S parameters of servo. Anyone who were looking in other directions and thought they are dealing with a new field ended up to be tweakers -- trying a bit here and there and see what sticks.

BTW, on a different subject, in my early days of audio, my favorite classic music composers are all Russians. Yes, the percussion and winds are just superb, and firebird, rite of spring, those are the "rock" version of class music. On the other hand, Mozart sounded plain and boring, very suitable for elevator music. But after I have made the first prototype DirectServo subs, I realize I was wrong about Mozart and other Baroque era composers. Their music is also superb, it is just that I didn't have a sub that is capable of producing "detail" and "micro-dynamic" that can reproduce the dynamic and contrast that the performer trys to express. After I got our sub, I now listen to Rosnni to make sure all the micro-dynamic detail is preserved in each of our sub models. The ultimate complimentary we can receive from our customers is they go back to their favorate CD collections and replay each of them to hear detail they have never heard before. The improvement is just as dramatic as upgrading to a high end transport or D/A converter. I am not sure how many customers from other brand is that enthusiastic about music and sound.

-
Edited by Rythmik - 3/22/13 at 12:38pm
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post #8777 of 9638
3/22/13 at 5:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremymak View Post

what is the advantage of using silver cone driver?

It is just appearance.
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post #8778 of 9638
3/22/13 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremymak View Post

what is the advantage of using silver cone driver?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

It is just appearance.

It's also easier to see the driver moving. My E15 has a black cone and when listening to music, since it integrates so well with the mains, many times I have to go over and touch it to determine if the bass is coming from the main speakers or the sub. The F12 with the silver driver I just got a couple days ago (for a different room), it is real easy to just glance at it from across the room to see the driver moving. Plus, it looks cool wink.gif

On a side note, the F12 is the matte black finish and it looks great. Most subs and speakers I've seen in matte finish look like someone used a roller brush to apply truck undercoating to them. This does not have that appearance at all. In fact, it looks really, really good. Even better than I expected. Pictures do not do this finish any justice.

As always, excellent work, Brian. (It goes without saying how fantastic sounding the sub is as well smile.gif )
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post #8779 of 9638
3/22/13 at 7:47am
I just wanted to jump in and thank Brian for extending the initial price on the LV12R. I pulled the trigger yesterday and cannot wait for it to show up.
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post #8780 of 9638
3/22/13 at 8:10am
Brain, am I right that you have two patents on your direct-servo technology? Is the F25 your flagship now? Can you tell us its max output?
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post #8781 of 9638
3/22/13 at 11:06am
Just placed an order with Rythmik for a F15HP (sealed version). Thanks to a couple of forum members for sharing insights and providing feedback. Ships out Monday...
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post #8782 of 9638
3/22/13 at 3:32pm
Seaton SubMersive F2 vs Rythmik F25

With the price of one F2 ($2545) one can get a pair of F25, so in my opinion it would be more fair to do just that--comparing a pair of F25 to a single F2, or four F25 to a pair of F2. That would be VERY interesting indeed!
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post #8783 of 9638
3/22/13 at 4:27pm
I often wonder to myself how my dual XS30's would compare to a single SubMersive HP. And I paid quite a bit less then a single Sub HP would have cost me, and they are also similar designs.
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post #8784 of 9638
3/22/13 at 5:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jheyau View Post

Seaton SubMersive F2 vs Rythmik F25

With the price of one F2 ($2545) one can get a pair of F25, so in my opinion it would be more fair to do just that--comparing a pair of F25 to a single F2, or four F25 to a pair of F2. That would be VERY interesting indeed!

+1! Now THAT is the correct comparison.
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post #8785 of 9638
3/22/13 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

+1! Now THAT is the correct comparison.

I thought according to the Rythmik site the F25 has less output than the FV15HP?
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post #8786 of 9638
3/22/13 at 5:39pm
It does according to their web page.
This was taken directly from the site:


Output comparison

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

I'm sure the F25 is a great sub but I don't know why anyone would think its Rythmik's flagship sub. I think the FV15HP is still king of the Rythmik castle.
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post #8787 of 9638
3/22/13 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It does according to their web page.
This was taken directly from the site:


Output comparison

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

I'm sure the F25 is a great sub but I don't know why anyone would think its Rythmik's flagship sub. I think the FV15HP is still king of the Rythmik castle.


I wonder if this is the updated data with the F25 800watt amp. This could be the F25 with the 600 watt amp. I will go back through the thread and find out.
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post #8788 of 9638
3/22/13 at 8:00pm
It seems that with the F25 you get all the benefits of a sealed sub, no port issues, full bass extension, etc. for a penalty of only 1db of max output. Looks like the best of both worlds.
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post #8789 of 9638
3/22/13 at 8:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post

I wonder if this is the updated data with the F25 800watt amp. This could be the F25 with the 600 watt amp. I will go back through the thread and find out.

That list hasn't been updated in some time so it must be for the original F25. I'm sure Brian will chime in here in respect to the new F25's performance and if there is any (great) difference.

On another note, I think the SPL numbers that are bandied about all the time on these boards is a tad silly. Who, in any sort of real world setting, is going to notice a 1dB difference at 20hz? Not only that, given the FV15HP was able to produce ~108dB at 20hz in 2-port mode measured in a 2m GP setting, if you factor in room-gain on top of that in an average-sized space, who is going to be listening at almost above reference level to spot this SPL difference? Of course, there are many other factors involved in this, but for all but the most ardent bass head who use their HT like a PA system for the neighborhood, so often those SPL numbers shouldn't mean much to those who listen at moderate levels, who don't intend to push their system to its limits and those who have moderately-sized rooms (<3500cf^3).

Don't get me wrong: I love what Ricci and co do and think it invaluable. However, sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees when they are concerned over negligible differences in max SPL numbers between various subwoofers.

For what the F25 actually is, it is one very good subwoofer irregardless if there is no SPL improvement over the old model and personally I can't wait to hear some impressions and, yes, even measurements of the new F25 once it starts to become widely disseminated... hopefully in a very short time biggrin.gif

PS- Jim, how is the review of the LV12R coming along? biggrin.gif
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post #8790 of 9638
3/22/13 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

+1! Now THAT is the correct comparison.

I thought according to the Rythmik site the F25 has less output than the FV15HP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It does according to their web page.
This was taken directly from the site:


Output comparison

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

I'm sure the F25 is a great sub but I don't know why anyone would think its Rythmik's flagship sub. I think the FV15HP is still king of the Rythmik castle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownTown View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It does according to their web page.
This was taken directly from the site:


Output comparison

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

I'm sure the F25 is a great sub but I don't know why anyone would think its Rythmik's flagship sub. I think the FV15HP is still king of the Rythmik castle.


I wonder if this is the updated data with the F25 800watt amp. This could be the F25 with the 600 watt amp. I will go back through the thread and find out.

I just want you fellas to understand what you are reading...
That is FV15HP at 2 port max output mode with each sub compared at 20Hz. Those numbers are what it looks like when you compare sealed vs ported. Fabulously they align exactly with the physics involved, as long as each sub remains accurate.. Isn't it weird how basic math doesn't apply to XXXXXXX. but applies ITT?

Hmmmm F25 +6db of F15 (non HP). Weird, it's exactly what the physics say it should be.

It's so cool to look at the Rythmik numbers. They are accurate subs that folks say "A Rythimk sounds like all Rythimks", Why? Why would subs sound different when played within their extension and output limits? Isn't one correct?



Yup
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