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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 294

post #8791 of 15139
F25 +6db of F15 (non HP)

HMMMM
Brian, what is the ETA on the F25HP and the FV25HP?

HMMMMM
that doesn't mean I think you should make that, just making the point. but maybe
post #8792 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post



I'm sure the F25 is a great sub but I don't know why anyone would think its Rythmik's flagship sub. I think the FV15HP is still king of the Rythmik castle.

Loving the FV15HPs, but can't you appreciate the trade-offs? Don't you run dual sealed PSA XS-30s? Seems like you'd understand why the FV15HP makes since for one situation while the F25 is better for another.
post #8793 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Loving the FV15HPs, but can't you appreciate the trade-offs? Don't you run dual sealed PSA XS-30s? Seems like you'd understand why the FV15HP makes since for one situation while the F25 is better for another.

I think the F25 is a very appealing sub and if it had been around when I bought my XS30's it probably would have made my decision even more difficult then it already was.

I really love sealed subs and that was the reason I went with the XS30 over the FV15HP in the first place. My comment about the FV15HP still being the king of the Rythmik castle was simply based on pure output numbers, which IMO are considered the be all end all far too often.
post #8794 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

It does according to their web page.
This was taken directly from the site:


Output comparison

At 20 Hz, our subs vary in their maximum output capability. The output at 20 Hz is shown relative to F12.

F12: 0db (baseline)
F15: +2db D15: +2db
FV12: +3db
E15HP: + 3.5db
F15HP: +4db
FV15: +7db
FV15HP: +9db
F25: +8db

I'm sure the F25 is a great sub but I don't know why anyone would think its Rythmik's flagship sub. I think the FV15HP is still king of the Rythmik castle.

This assumes that output is the only criteria by which to judge a sub. Years ago, when Rythmik offered previous versions (different drivers, basically) of the F12 and F15, Brian was quoted as saying that the F12 was "better" sounding than the F15. Many designers and manufacturers of amplifiers say the same thing about their product line, that the smallest and least powerful of their amp's is the best sounding. Sound quality isn't like horsepower in cars. There is also torque, handling, braking, etc., if I may make a crude analogy.
post #8795 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by kma100 View Post

Just placed an order with Rythmik for a F15HP (sealed version). Thanks to a couple of forum members for sharing insights and providing feedback. Ships out Monday...

For some, the F15HP is still the "King" of the Rythmik line, the model whose sound quality all other models are judged according to. The beautiful DS1510 driver (with the largest voice coil and maximum cone travel of the company's drivers) with a 600W amp all to itself. And, it's sealed, for those (like Brian himself) who prefer the sound of a sealed sub to a ported one, no matter the maximum output.
Edited by BDP24 - 3/23/13 at 8:33am
post #8796 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

For some, the F15 is still the "King" of the Rythmik line

confused.gif

The DS1500 is used in the F15. ???

F15, DS1500.

According to Rythmik's website, the F15 has a 370w amplifier.

With their 600w RMS amplifiers, where do the F15HP and the E15 stand when compared to the F15 with it's 370w amplifier?

What differences is there between the drivers used in each of the above mentioned subwoofers; DS1500 vs DS1510?



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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/23/13 at 7:48am
post #8797 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

confused.gif

The DS1500 is used in the F15. ???

F15, DS1500.

According to Rythmik's website, the F15 has a 370w amplifier.

With their 600w RMS amplifiers, where do the F15HP and the E15 stand when compared to the F15 with it's 370w amplifier?

What differences is there between the drivers used in each of the above mentioned subwoofers; DS1500 vs DS1510?



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Oops, you are completely correct. I meant to say F15HP (corrected above), which was what the OP stated he had just ordered. It's an even better deal (and will have higher very low frequency output, and lower distortion) if you order the DIY kit and build (or have one built) a 4 cuft box. As to the drivers, there is also a middle model 15" driver, the DS1505. Details on all three drivers can be found under the "Drivers" heading on the main page of the website.
post #8798 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

Of course, there are many other factors involved in this, but for all but the most ardent bass head who use their HT like a PA system for the neighborhood, so often those SPL numbers shouldn't mean much to those who listen at moderate levels, who don't intend to push their system to its limits and those who have moderately-sized rooms (<3500cf^3).

I like that line - I may use it myself. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

PS- Jim, how is the review of the LV12R coming along? biggrin.gif

I have one review finished and ready for publication, and another I'm probably less than half way done with, then I'll be looking at the LV12R. Stay tuned... wink.gif
post #8799 of 15139
How long is the lv12r on sale for? And I'm intrested in any reviews as I'm seriously considering buying this. Will it give me a "shaking feel" in a rectangle room about 14x24 8 foot ceilings. I want a sub I. An not only hear but feel. But don't need anything crazy overbored. I have a little whipy pro sub 600 now and it does me good I'm my 12x13 room
post #8800 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by newc33 View Post

How long is the lv12r on sale for? And I'm intrested in any reviews as I'm seriously considering buying this. Will it give me a "shaking feel" in a rectangle room about 14x24 8 foot ceilings. I want a sub I. An not only hear but feel. But don't need anything crazy overbored. I have a little whipy pro sub 600 now and it does me good I'm my 12x13 room

In my 13x17x8 room there is definitely bass you can feel. However, your area is about 1000 ft^3 larger than mine, so the effect wouldn't be quite the same. I imagine it would still do pretty good though.
post #8801 of 15139
I ordered the lv12r ill be sure to give a good review when I get it
post #8802 of 15139
anyone buy an f25 yet?
post #8803 of 15139
Hi Brian and fellow audiophiles, I want to mate a pair of Soundlab A-1 speakers (yes, the big electrostatic speakers) with two D-15SE's. I'm using an electronic crossover with a high pass and low pass function. High pass for the Soundlab is set to 100Hz 12dB/octave. I would like to run the subs with low pass setting at the same values as with the high pass (100Hz, 12dB/octave).
Do you think this is possible? I have some experience with open baffle woofers but the sound tends to thicken in the lower midrange/upper bass without a real deep bass.
Could I have a clear deep bass that coheres well with the Soundlabs with the D-15SE's? Thank you in advance.

Chris
post #8804 of 15139
Decades ago I decided servo subs were best for mating with fast panels (I have Magnepans, have heard and have friends with various ESLs). I think Rythmik would be a great match. I would use a L-R crossover with steeper slopes, however.
post #8805 of 15139
I am jumping on the band wagon here... I just bought the FV15HP and am thinking I should have waited for the F25.

I see that the FV15HP very slightly has more output at 20hz (it was never mentioned if the FV15HP was measured in One Port or Two port mode and what the port was tuned to when they made this chart though...

I have zero idea how the two perform under 20hz...

As for sealed vs not sealed (SQ) ...I am convinced after reading all the shootouts etc...that there is very little difference in a good ported sub vs. sealed... All of you that have more knowledge please pipe in if I am wrong.

I am about 50/50 music to HT... So music is important to me.
post #8806 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post

Hi Brian and fellow audiophiles, I want to mate a pair of Soundlab A-1 speakers (yes, the big electrostatic speakers) with two D-15SE's. I'm using an electronic crossover with a high pass and low pass function. High pass for the Soundlab is set to 100Hz 12dB/octave. I would like to run the subs with low pass setting at the same values as with the high pass (100Hz, 12dB/octave).
Do you think this is possible? I have some experience with open baffle woofers but the sound tends to thicken in the lower midrange/upper bass without a real deep bass.
Could I have a clear deep bass that coheres well with the Soundlabs with the D-15SE's? Thank you in advance.

Chris

Chris---As you have the Soundlab A-1's (J. Gordon Holt's favorite speaker!), I'm presuming you have a pretty large room. That probably means you won't get a large amount of room gain, a good reason for getting the FV15. You could buy one D15 and one FV15, try them both, return the loser, and order a second of the winner. You'de be out the cost of the return shipping for the loser, but you'de know for sure which model is best for you. As for Open Baffle subs, the Rythmik/GR Research OB system is not a typical OB sub. You can read all about it at GR's thread on the AVS site and at GR's site. Brian worked with Danny Richie of GR on the OB drivers, and Brian makes a special version of the Rythmik plate amp specifically for OB use.
Edited by BDP24 - 3/23/13 at 6:04pm
post #8807 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

I am jumping on the band wagon here... I just bought the FV15HP and am thinking I should have waited for the F25.

I see that the FV15HP very slightly has more output at 20hz (it was never mentioned if the FV15HP was measured in One Port or Two port mode and what the port was tuned to when they made this chart though...

How big is your room? It would have to be pretty large to overwhelm an FV15HP. I heard one of those at a GTG last year and the thing can crank.

Assuming there is an audible output difference between the FV15HP and F25 -- and not just something marginal that only shows up when using measuring equipment -- is it actually something that would make a difference in your particular circumstance? I'm not challenging you, just asking a question. The pursuit of output numbers starts to get a little silly if you ask me. It's akin to the top speed of a car; does it really matter if it can do 170 or "only" 160 MPH? Doubtful, seeing as how you'll never get to find out anyway. If you're inclined to listen at 108dB then perhaps 109dB might have some relevance, but if you never go beyond 95-100dB then the perceived value of an extra dB or two takes on a different perspective. It's probably better to focus on things that you'll notice/use all of the time, like depth and transient response, then something you'll probably never even use. That's my 02 anyway...
post #8808 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

How big is your room? It would have to be pretty large to overwhelm an FV15HP. I heard one of those at a GTG last year and the thing can crank.

Assuming there is an audible output difference between the FV15HP and F25 -- and not just something marginal that only shows up when using measuring equipment -- is it actually something that would make a difference in your particular circumstance? I'm not challenging you, just asking a question. The pursuit of output numbers starts to get a little silly if you ask me. It's akin to the top speed of a car; does it really matter if it can do 170 or "only" 160 MPH? Doubtful, seeing as how you'll never get to find out anyway. If you're inclined to listen at 108dB then perhaps 109dB might have some relevance, but if you never go beyond 95-100dB then the perceived value of an extra dB or two takes on a different perspective. It's probably better to focus on things that you'll notice/use all of the time, like depth and transient response, then something you'll probably never even use. That's my 02 anyway...


Not that I don't agree...but saying that the HP version was probably "over kill" cool.gif

I have a 12 x 22 room 8 ft tall...but open to a hall and the kitchen. Output above 20 is good...below...I could wish for a tad more. Probably need two... But putting all that aside.. Since the F25 is actually almost the same cost...I think anyone in the market wants to know.

Sound quality wise it seems that Rythmic is pointing to the F25 as being "better" than the FV15HP...
post #8809 of 15139
Hi, Brian, please tell me how long does it take to send the orders? March 19 I placed the order, but so far I have not received a response.

Date : 19 Mar 2013 - 04:48
Order ID : 3912830
Edited by ooookaay - 3/23/13 at 7:15pm
post #8810 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie01 View Post

Sound quality wise it seems that Rythmic is pointing to the F25 as being "better" than the FV15HP...

I'm curious to know, has Brian actually come out and said the F25 has been sound quality then a FV15HP?
post #8811 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I'm curious to know, has Brian actually come out and said the F25 has been sound quality then a FV15HP?

Not directly and I doubt he ever would but there are slants that indicate this is so...

"F25 matches the low frequency output of our vented subs and for music use the output is even higher. The dual driver design increases efficiency so that only half the power is required for a given output level. Like our other high output options, a 600w amplifier is included."

Also, at least as has been passed around...there are posts in the forums that indicate Brian thinks the general SQ for music on a sealed is better than a ported.

So, if this matches the "low frequency output" of the vented subs and is a sealed sub...argo the SQ is better and you get the same or more output ...now what that means in numbers...I don't know.

Low Frequency output = 80 to 20 ... 20 and below...?!?!?!

There seems to be a slight swaying of SQ to sealed and if this = or betters the FV15HP for $250 more...well choice would be clear to me.
post #8812 of 15139
Imagine if there was an FV25HP... How big would this monster be ?
post #8813 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Imagine if there was an FV25HP... How big would this monster be ?
yummy, I'll take four... wait I can't afford that. But dream I do and occasionally I even accomplish smile.gif

I don't think the sealed F25 is being touted as higher sound quality; please correct me if I am wrong Brian. What's kewl about a ported Rythmik is the sound quality is so good with the servo its very very close to the sealed, good luck trying to blind test that. A sealed won't make it feel like a fan just came on, and that physical aspect is fun for me. I think Brian runs the F12 if I'm not mistaken, I suspect he has his choice of the lineup, he's a music man though so 20Hz/15Hz doesn't mean much then. The sealed is winning below port tune and handles the deep deep signals more gracefully. My ported Rythimk is flatter to that point, and the tune is low.

It's simply a tradeoff. My sweeps with a questionable rat shack meter show -3db at 10Hz in room... What if there were 2-4 F25's in here with XT32, measurement gear, and a minidsp...serious output at single digis is in play, which isn't going to happen with my FV15HPs.

Jim makes so many good points, but an interesting one (of many) applicable to me is sure, we leaned on it pretty hard at the GTG, and I've been at reference less than 10 times, and sometimes I go to -5, but in reality that's not even close to the level I watch movies or listen to tunes at most of the time. It's kewl to demo, and I did crank skyfall train fun to -5, but that's really just the short lust moment, far from the norm. When I feel fiesty -10 is a lot, -20 to -10 is often. -25 to -30 is even more common. This is a family room social setup.
post #8814 of 15139
Haha dstew, every time I read where you've type "kwel" I think somebody is drinking and typing again! Lol tongue.gif
post #8815 of 15139
Regarding the filter setting for the electronic crossover: is it preferable to set the high pass about 10Hz above the low pass point? So you will deliberately introduce a "gap"? My system tends to sound bloated in the lower midrange if I take one mutual crossover point, that is 100Hz.
Why do I get a muddy bass with my open baffle woofer? To many experts open baffle bass should sound very clear and with definition.
I have attached a picture of the listening room with each open baffle woofers tower at the outer side of the electrostatic speaker. Btw, is this a good set up?

Chris

Chris
post #8816 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post

Why do I get a muddy bass with my open baffle woofer?

Have you measured the response of your room's acoustics?

Very, very nice looking setup but Murphy of "Murphy's Law" fame says; aesthetically set up subwoofers systems (or are those just a bank of woofers) will put the listener in the biggest null in the room. tongue.gif

Unfortunately, there is no "all things being equal" regarding room acoustics. Forgive me if you already know this but if one doesn't take the time to measure and EQ (integrations) the reproducing sound system's output into the room's acoustics, the individual is going be completely blind to what's happening with their sound reproduction system and at what level the reproduced sound is integrating within the room's acoustics.

The short version, without measuring and correcting for a room's acoustics, the best one can hope for is to live in a clueless state of mind. tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/24/13 at 9:23am
post #8817 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post

Regarding the filter setting for the electronic crossover: is it preferable to set the high pass about 10Hz above the low pass point? So you will deliberately introduce a "gap"? My system tends to sound bloated in the lower midrange if I take one mutual crossover point, that is 100Hz.
Why do I get a muddy bass with my open baffle woofer? To many experts open baffle bass should sound very clear and with definition.
I have attached a picture of the listening room with each open baffle woofers tower at the outer side of the electrostatic speaker. Btw, is this a good set up?

Chris

Chris

The big Soundlabs! I've heard them only once, at a CES. They were in a big room and were being driven by an amplifier not quite up to the task---it was clipping on hard transients. They have a pretty wicked impedence curve, and need an amplifier stable into very low impedences, don't they?
post #8818 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzdax View Post

Regarding the filter setting for the electronic crossover: is it preferable to set the high pass about 10Hz above the low pass point? So you will deliberately introduce a "gap"? My system tends to sound bloated in the lower midrange if I take one mutual crossover point, that is 100Hz.
Why do I get a muddy bass with my open baffle woofer? To many experts open baffle bass should sound very clear and with definition.
I have attached a picture of the listening room with each open baffle woofers tower at the outer side of the electrostatic speaker. Btw, is this a good set up?

Chris

Chris
Great setup. You might get muddy bass if your crossover cannot delay the high pass and let the bass lead. Two Rythmik F25 should provide a smart, clean, potent sound up to 120Hz, a little higher if run in stereo. Use LFE mode with an external 24 dB/oct Linkwitz-Riley crossover. Rythmik subs keep up with the absolute fastest speakers at the high damping setting.
Edited by tronic307 - 3/24/13 at 2:29pm
post #8819 of 15139
If everything is properly set up the crossover point should be the same for sub and mains unless there is a "hump" in the mains response. The latter is sometimes done to provide the impression of more bass. However, the most likely cause is room acoustics, especially with dipoles like ESLs (Soundlab) or planar dynamics (Magnepan). Look up "room mode calculator" or some such and see if there's a room mode at the crossover or just above, or even better measure the response as has been suggested.

Open-baffle subs, not sure why they'd be brought up in this thread? Most drivers seem to operate better and cleaner in a sealed box, plus open baffles add a bass back wave as well. I have always preferred sealed subs with planar speakers, and servo most of all. I built my first servo ~1980 to go with my Magnepan MG-I's and have never looked back. IME getting open baffled subs to work well is very challenging; you need a very good amplifier and careful placement. Most of the open-baffle subs I have heard sound a little boomy to me...

Have you tried crossing over lower? Aren't the A-1's rated to 25 Hz or something like that (been a long time since I heard them)? I would cross over around 50 - 60 Hz, maybe 80 Hz max. For me, 100 Hz would be too high, and might exacerbate any room issues.

HTH, IMO, YMMV, etc. - Don
post #8820 of 15139
Thank you all for the nice words regarding system set up.
The 100Hz crossover point I chose deliberately to prevent extreme forward and backward movement of the electrostatic membrane during loud low frequency passages, so I can play louder (more SPL) without the risk of damaging the membrane.
If I would choose 70Hz as crossover point I'm afraid the membrane is still making quite large movements.
Why do you prefer 24Hz instead of 12Hz? I was told that a 24Hz slope gives more phase shifts than 12Hz slope?

Chris
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