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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 307

post #9181 of 15139
Try the opening scene of Prometheus:)
post #9182 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Wednesday, my FV15HP finally arrived. I set it up and it was working wonderfully. What an awesome sub compared to my old HSU. Thursday night I was doing the sub crawl trying to find the best position for the sub. In the process I had to switch outlets a few times and at one point there was suddenly no power to the amp. I pulled the fuse and it was OK and in the process of plugging the power cord back into the amp, I saw the light go on, then flicker and then it went out with an accompanying burnt electrical smell and now is completely dead. I contacted Rythmik via e-mail and received a very prompt response from Brian indicating that, shocked as he was that an amplifier would display such symptoms, he would ship me a replacement.

Today (Friday) while at work I thought to myself whether it might be worth a try to hook up the sub using a different power cord. I scrounged around and found an old computer cord and guess what!????...........it fixed the problem! Woohoo!

Has anyone else had problems with the supplied power cord?

I, needless to say, immediately contacted Rythmik and told them to cancel that shipment. Great C.S.
Which Hsu? Just want to confirm with you that sub crawl means you crawl with your sub sitting at your listening position and NOT moving your sub around while crawling.
post #9183 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Which Hsu? Just want to confirm with you that sub crawl means you crawl with your sub sitting at your listening position and NOT moving your sub around while crawling.

Soooo, strapping my sub to my back was wrong too??

biggrin.gif
post #9184 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys View Post

Which Hsu?
It is the HSU HRSW12V which was a fine performer back in the day and still is in a smaller room than my 5800 cubic foot box.
Quote:
Just want to confirm with you that sub crawl means you crawl with your sub sitting at your listening position and NOT moving your sub around while crawling.
The "Sub crawl" is what is refered to when you move your sub a little, do some measurements, move it a little more, do some more measurements and so-on. It helps position the sub in a spot where the room has the least affect on frequency spikes and nulls. Just moving the sub a foot or two can have dramatic affects on the frequency curve and simply plopping a sub down in a spot because it has the most asthetically pleasing results is usually not the best acoustically speaking.
post #9185 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

The "Sub crawl" is what is refered to when you move your sub a little, do some measurements, move it a little more, do some more measurements and so-on. It helps position the sub in a spot where the room has the least affect on frequency spikes and nulls. Just moving the sub a foot or two can have dramatic affects on the frequency curve and simply plopping a sub down in a spot because it has the asthetically most pleasing results are usually not the best acoustically speaking.

No, that's not what is referred to as sub crawl. This is.
post #9186 of 15139
BTW; I went to our local Computer recycle store and was able to get a nice 10 foot, 14 awg power cord for $5.00.
post #9187 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisakuku View Post

No, that's not what is referred to as sub crawl. This is.
Thanks for the link. I knew that, just didn't articulate it very well.

ETA; going from the Audioholics article and simply playing a bass heavy CD instead of some sort of sine wave test tones with an spl meter, wouldn't that work to a point based on the frequecies carried within that bass heavy CD but ignore others that are missing?
post #9188 of 15139
I would also like to chime in on Brian's excellent customer service. Not doing enough homework I ordered F12, wanted a FV15hp but then the waf factor came in.
She wanted as small sub as possible and to sit bellow the end tables . Then after the F12 arrived found out we might going into a bigger room. I then spotted the
E15 (some how missed this the first time around) and called Brian, explained to him my story and in short he made the transition to the E15hp very easy, painless
and fair. To top it all off my wife thought the E15 was almost the same size as the F12.

I am very happy with the service, love the bass, and would buy again.
I highly recommend both for service and the excellent bass.
post #9189 of 15139
So my LV12R arrived today. Unboxed it and plopped it down in the exact spot my BIC F12 used to be. This sub is amazing! I don't have any measurement software or anything, but from what I hear it sounds good to me. Also don't have many positions to place the subwoofer in since the room is only 10' x 12'.

Tried some music first (Phil Collins, Rush). Played very authoritatively and blended with the fronts very well (currently Martin Logan Motion 12's). I then put on Avatar and Inception for a little and it continued to impress. Didn't hear any port noise, but I was only playing to -20 according to my Denon receiver. If anyone has any questions for me feel free to ask (since I don't see too much out there about the LV12R). Otherwise I will continue to enjoy my new sub biggrin.gif.
post #9190 of 15139
Hi torqdog,

Please post how you integrate the sub with the Golds. Check out the rythmik phase adjustment java app, setting my sub distances a bit closer as per that app helped smooth out a bass peak around 80Hz I had. I set my Golds as small and crossover at 80Hz and am getting pretty flat response (by RS SPL meter, rough check). I currently have the sub near the rear wall roughly mid point, a couple feet behind the listening position. Set at mid damping, 14Hz/1 port no EQ. Just starting to play around a bit, high damping sounds good too but mid seems to fill in a slight mid bass null with my seating/speaker placement. I'll probalbly end up high damping. Low damping reminds me of the old Hsu VTF3Mk2, I don't like it.
Unfortunately my screen makes me place the Golds too far apart for optimum sound but the rythmik fixes bass issues from that and actually has a better, slightly tighter sound than I've ever gotten out of the Golds in several set ups I've had them in. The FV15HP is an excellent upgrade for the Golds, which are exceptionally capable in low bass both for quality and output.
post #9191 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

But for that price, if not a lot less, you can get an electronic crossover with at least 3rd order filtering, adjustable frequency, and should you ever need it, low-passed outputs for mains. Electronics these days are far too inexpensive to make it worthwhile or cost effective to mess around with passive components.

Right, the passive parts route is for those with an aversion to any-more-than-necessary electronics in general, and opamps in particular. Don't pretty much all economy active xovers employ them these days?
post #9192 of 15139
Is the rumble filter to actually protect the speaker from damage, because of overexcursion, or is this just protecting the sound quality?
post #9193 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Is the rumble filter to actually protect the speaker from damage, because of overexcursion, or is this just protecting the sound quality?
Both. Rumble filters date back to vinyl, and served to filter out below bandwidth content that could lead to driver over-excursion. Most of that content was mechanically sourced, in the turntable mechanism. Nowadays we don't call it a rumble filter, we call it a high pass, but the intent is still the same, keeping low frequency content out of a sub that's too low for it to handle.
Quote:
Right, the passive parts route is for those with an aversion to any-more-than-necessary electronics in general, and opamps in particular. Don't pretty much all economy active xovers employ them these days?
Not only do all economy crossovers use op-amps, so do virtually all high end crossovers. There was some justification to avoiding 'more than necessary' electronics when they were loaded with 741 and 4136 ICs, but that was a long time ago.
post #9194 of 15139
Brian is rightfully proud that he employs OPA2134's in his circuits. I doubt there is another sub manufacturer who takes sound quality, not just sound pressure level, as seriously as he.
post #9195 of 15139
Brian,

Do you have an ETA on when the new lower cost 12" sealed sub (L12 I believe) will be available? Will it be shipping before June by chance?

Thanks!
post #9196 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxion View Post

Is the rumble filter to actually protect the speaker from damage, because of overexcursion, or is this just protecting the sound quality?

The answer depends on type of subwoofers. For sealed subs, the back pressure actually limits the amount of excursion at the subsonic frequency. So there is no need for a rumble filter to protect the drivers. When the sub is over-driven, it has this amp clipping noise that is sufficient for alert the listeners. But turn on the limiter function will serve the purpose. But if you have some of those recordings that you can see the cone moving in and out slowly when you playing them, it means those recordings do not use rumble filter during mastering and a lot of those subsonic noise is from each people walking on stage, or air conditioning vibration, or even wind noise. For this type of sub-sonic noise, you can turn on the rumble filter to prevent the energy being wasted. However for other cleaner recordings, turn on rumble fitter can filter out vital spatial information. When we talk about a single tone 20hz, people have this impression that the signal will stay at 20hz even when the signal comes in and goes. The reality is the spectral content of dynamically changing signal is always wider than the static signal by itself and therefore a rumble filter may filter out some of the "real" signal. For instance, if a 20hz signal slowly comes in and out at 10 times/sec rate, there will be a spectral content at 20hz -10hz=10hz and 20hz + 10hz = 30hz. This is called frequency modulation. Now if the same signal slowly comes in and out at 18hz rate, there will be a spectral contents at both 20hz-18hz=2hz and 20hz+18hz=38hz. A lot of techno sound actually uses this type of techniques to produce interesting low bass sound effect to a degree that it comes un-natural. Other naturally recorded sound will also have similar sound effect, albeit the subsonic content is much lower. The purpose for our sealed subs to have low extension is to faithfully reproduce this type of sound effect with already very weak subsonic energy. Very often there will be some bass nuts make the comment that your subs have 14hz extension, but how loud they can play at that frequency, sort of implying if we cannot produce the 14hz signal at the SPL high enough to satisfy them, then the extension of 14hz is meaningless. Those remarks completely missed the point. The reason I explain the above is customers can turn on and off rumble filter based on his objective of a sound system. If he wants to play loud, then it is best to turn on the rumble filter. If he wants to hear a complete spectrum of the recorded signal with reasonable subsonic energy contents, then he can turn off the rumble filter.


On the other hand, vented subs have no back pressure to protect the driver from over-excursion. Then it is best to do two things together: 1) turn on limiter, and 2) use the rumble filter and extension filter as we have suggested. For instance, for LV12R, the extension filter can be at any position. Same is FV15HP/FV15 in 2port mode with rumble filter on. However, in FV15HP/FV15 1 port mode and rumble filter off (it has to be in the off position), it is recommended to use 14hz/low damping for better excursion protection. We are considering of adding a third position of the rumble filter that we can add 13hz rumble filter so that we have more protection in 1 port mode. Let me know if you guys have any suggestion.
post #9197 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

Hi torqdog,

Please post how you integrate the sub with the Golds. Check out the rythmik phase adjustment java app, setting my sub distances a bit closer as per that app helped smooth out a bass peak around 80Hz I had. I set my Golds as small and crossover at 80Hz and am getting pretty flat response (by RS SPL meter, rough check). I currently have the sub near the rear wall roughly mid point, a couple feet behind the listening position. Set at mid damping, 14Hz/1 port no EQ. Just starting to play around a bit, high damping sounds good too but mid seems to fill in a slight mid bass null with my seating/speaker placement. I'll probalbly end up high damping. Low damping reminds me of the old Hsu VTF3Mk2, I don't like it.
Unfortunately my screen makes me place the Golds too far apart for optimum sound but the rythmik fixes bass issues from that and actually has a better, slightly tighter sound than I've ever gotten out of the Golds in several set ups I've had them in. The FV15HP is an excellent upgrade for the Golds, which are exceptionally capable in low bass both for quality and output.
Hey mikepos, I'm still playing around a bit. Last night I pushed that sub all over the room (thank God for furniture sliders) and one thing became quite apparent......... the middle of the wall position was, in my room, close to the worst spot I tried. You see, I have this problem called Home Theater in a Box. No, I didn't actually purchase one of those all in one systems, my home theater is literally sitting in a 24 x 24 x 10 foot "box" and I'm quickly discovering that it sucks for trying to get a somewhat even FR at my listening position. Right now I have the FV15HP sitting just to the right of the right front speaker out from the corner ~3 to 4 feet. That is where I was able to get the smoothest FR across the spectrum using sine wave test CDs and my spl meter. Even with this "best case scenario" my maximum peak to null is 7db until you get up around 100hz where it jumps another 6db. Bass traps are DEFINITELY gonna be an upcoming project........PRONTO!

I played around extensively with going between 1 port and 2 port configurations and my results mirror yours. Mid damping, 14hz/1port, no EQ. I kept switching back and forth between the crossover set at 60hz or 80hz and I like the 60hz better, especially on music and concert blus. Setting the Golds to small with a 60hz crossover was something I couldn't do with the old HSU as I'm quickly finding how sloppy and non-articulate that sub was. It may have been "cutting edge" back in the day but that was 15 years ago and it's obvious that technology has come a long ways since then. I'm absolutely stunned with how clean and articulate the low end is, coming from the FV15HP and totally agree, this sub integrates well and compliments the Golds and they now sound better than ever.

One question about the limiter switch. Is that similar to the "clipping switch" on the HSU?
post #9198 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

I can see how preventing the lower frequencies from getting to the mains (by choosing small and setting a crossover frequency) works when using an AVR with bass management. But what about when using the sub in a 2.1 system with a stereo amplifier? My preamp has 2 sets of outputs. One set is connected to the sub and uses the F12's LPF. But the other set goes to the power amp and has no built in way of limiting the signal (HPF) to the main speakers so I cannot relieve them of the lower frequency load. I would think the benefit of limiting the low frequency load to the mains would be of as much benefit in 2.1 listening as in 5.1.

Actually, the first question that should have been asked is whether you have the PEQ plate amp, or the PEQ3 plate amp. The reason is, the PEQ has HPF output on RCA jacks that you can connect to your main power amp, the PEQ3 doesn't. I assume you have the 3 or you wouldn't have asked about an outboard x-over.
post #9199 of 15139
Got my sub Tuesday and have listened to the Balrog scene from Fellowship of the Ring several times. I've also watched Prometheus. I was a little worried that I wouldn't notice that much difference and would be dissappointed at spending the money on it. However, when listening to the Balrog rumble and roar I was really sucked into the movie, tangibly feeling the scene and the fear of the "fellowship." Then I realized how my wonderful new sub was responsible and I laughed out loud. Love love love my new FV15HP sub!
post #9200 of 15139
Thanks for the suggestions and ideas so far.

I have the PEQ3 amp on the F12 but the F12 is in an HT system in the living room with an AVR with base management so no issues there. The office system currently has an older low end sub with only L&R low level inputs. The office system is strictly stereo being powered by an NAD C372 integrated stereo amp. The only type of tone management this amp has are bass and treble knobs along with an option to bypass the tone control circuit. I plan on buying a new sub for this system in May or June. Brian has said they should have PEQ amps with the HPF as an option for the F12 by then. If I understand correctly the PEQ version has the HPF fixed at 80 Hz out.

I have been doing some experimenting with the HT system. I definitely like the bass better when the fronts are set to small, though I did have to bump the bass up a couple of dB. However, when I set the crossover for the front speakers to 80 Hz it sounded like something was missing. When I set them to 60 Hz they sound great, the hole was gone. I need to do a little more experimenting to confirm this. I may not have had the crossover on the sub set high enough. I have reset it to 100 Hz and will retry the experiment this evening. If I still like the 60 Hz setting better I will probably go with an external crossover with adjustable frequency controls like some of you have recommended. If I do that I'll stick with the PEQ3 amp for the F12. I still have to figure out how I am going to physically fit an F12 into this room.

Any suggestions on brands of external crossovers to look at?
post #9201 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mavericks64 View Post

Got my sub Tuesday and have listened to the Balrog scene from Fellowship of the Ring several times. I've also watched Prometheus. I was a little worried that I wouldn't notice that much difference and would be dissappointed at spending the money on it. However, when listening to the Balrog rumble and roar I was really sucked into the movie, tangibly feeling the scene and the fear of the "fellowship." Then I realized how my wonderful new sub was responsible and I laughed out loud. Love love love my new FV15HP sub!
I haven't yet watched Balrog (so many movies, so little time) but I just finished watching Prometheus again. The scene where the spaceship takes off and tries to leave the planet was worrisome. I feared that the room was gonna start disintegrating with me in it. Yeah, it was that powerful. eek.gifsmile.gif

For Prometheus I went and set the pre-pro crossover to 80hz as suggested by mikepos. I think I'm liking this setting, at least for this movie anyway.

Next up tonight, Balrog
post #9202 of 15139
Its not just the big bass scenes that impressed me but even being able to hear foot steps and other small bass stuff you don’t miss until you plug your sub in and realize all you WHERE missing.
So full…… so good…….
post #9203 of 15139
So I watched The Hobbit last night... NO BASS! I kept fiddling with the sub settings, checked the cables and the sub level in the player... drove the wife nuts as she hadn't seen it in the theater. Especially the rock giant fight, it was iunbelievable. I knew it had to be in the movie but couldn;t accept that, especially where LOTR has decent bass. Did a seach after the movie and found that they filtered out most bass below 40Hz. I have a slight dip in that area so it was even worse in my system as that bass wasn't strong either. Funny thing is that some people are arguing that the bass is fine, I guess that's where you separate the people wh have real bass from those who have never heard real bass tongue.gif

Torqdog you're doing pretty darn good with only 7dB variation in that room, I'm in around ten in a couple areas. It's because of my seating position, i'm on the edge of a null but moving back hurts clarity for music. I'm going to try using the sub EQ to even things out a bit better, it's close enough now that it sounds good in most cases. I have s light peak from the Golds around 75-90 Hz IIRC, and I'm using the phase adjustment and crossover frequencies to try to tame that while boosting a bit near 40Hz or so, but I have to check again as I'm moving the seating and sub around a bit. Even 6" forward-backward movement in the seat makes a difference where I currently have things set.
post #9204 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


Not only do all economy crossovers use op-amps, so do virtually all high end crossovers. There was some justification to avoiding 'more than necessary' electronics when they were loaded with 741 and 4136 ICs, but that was a long time ago.

But not all OP amps are created equal. If you study microelectronics you know the OP amps of those 741 and 4136 are completely crap by today's standard and know-how. The leakage current is high, the DC offset is high, and DC drift is high, bandwidth is low, and the characteristic spread is high. What is the fundamental problem? The number of steps to make those ICs are few (fewer masks and steps) and the circuit topology was inferior and therefore the transistors (particular the P transistor) have very poor characteristics and resulting in very limited bandwidth. The sole benefit is they are cheap to make. Almost all semiconductor companies can make them. One may ask why do we need 10Mhz bandwidth OP amps for audio signals. This is typical what statisticians said "confusion of causation with correlation". Higher bandwidth does not cause OP amp to sound better. But higher bandwidth is a strong correlation that the OP has better transistor building process and therefore has other better characteristics and therefore produce better and more coherent sound. Those inferior OPamps are the perfect source to be re-marked as higher grade OP amps to be sold at a higher price (aka, counterfeit opamps).


-
Edited by Rythmik - 4/14/13 at 12:10pm
post #9205 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkozlow3 View Post

Brian,

Do you have an ETA on when the new lower cost 12" sealed sub (L12 I believe) will be available? Will it be shipping before June by chance?

Thanks!

From the progress the supplier is making now, it will be late August.
post #9206 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torqdog View Post

Wednesday, my FV15HP finally arrived. I set it up and it was working wonderfully. What an awesome sub compared to my old HSU. Thursday night I was doing the sub crawl trying to find the best position for the sub. In the process I had to switch outlets a few times and at one point there was suddenly no power to the amp. I pulled the fuse and it was OK and in the process of plugging the power cord back into the amp, I saw the light go on, then flicker and then it went out with an accompanying burnt electrical smell and now is completely dead. I contacted Rythmik via e-mail and received a very prompt response from Brian indicating that, shocked as he was that an amplifier would display such symptoms, he would ship me a replacement.

Today (Friday) while at work I thought to myself whether it might be worth a try to hook up the sub using a different power cord. I scrounged around and found an old computer cord and guess what!????...........it fixed the problem! Woohoo!

Has anyone else had problems with the supplied power cord?

I, needless to say, immediately contacted Rythmik and told them to cancel that shipment. Great C.S.


I've noticed that most AC cords I have fit loosely into the AC jack of my F15 (I got it used, so I don't know about the original cord that came with it). Just slightly moving the sub can cause the power cord to slip out enough so the sub loses power. So when I read your post, I was wondering if the problem was a bad cord, or just that the first cord was somewhat loose in the jack.
post #9207 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

Thanks for the suggestions and ideas so far.

I have the PEQ3 amp on the F12 but the F12 is in an HT system in the living room with an AVR with base management so no issues there. The office system currently has an older low end sub with only L&R low level inputs. The office system is strictly stereo being powered by an NAD C372 integrated stereo amp. The only type of tone management this amp has are bass and treble knobs along with an option to bypass the tone control circuit. I plan on buying a new sub for this system in May or June. Brian has said they should have PEQ amps with the HPF as an option for the F12 by then. If I understand correctly the PEQ version has the HPF fixed at 80 Hz out.

I have been doing some experimenting with the HT system. I definitely like the bass better when the fronts are set to small, though I did have to bump the bass up a couple of dB. However, when I set the crossover for the front speakers to 80 Hz it sounded like something was missing. When I set them to 60 Hz they sound great, the hole was gone. I need to do a little more experimenting to confirm this. I may not have had the crossover on the sub set high enough. I have reset it to 100 Hz and will retry the experiment this evening. If I still like the 60 Hz setting better I will probably go with an external crossover with adjustable frequency controls like some of you have recommended. If I do that I'll stick with the PEQ3 amp for the F12. I still have to figure out how I am going to physically fit an F12 into this room.

Any suggestions on brands of external crossovers to look at?

After rerunning the experiment i learned that the hole I heard after setting the mains to small 80 Hz was due to my forgetting to raise the crossover on the sub. After I increased the sub's crossover to 100 Hz the 80 Hz setting on the mains worked very well. Overall the system sounds better this way than it did when the mains were running full and the sub's crossover was set to blend with them. Since this works so well when I order my new sub for the office I will go with a PEQ amp with the HPF out jacks instead of using an external crossover.

Question: The mains were ported to reach their -3 dB point of 45 Hz. Since I am now crossing them at 80 Hz should I plug the ports?
post #9208 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldave View Post

I've noticed that most AC cords I have fit loosely into the AC jack of my F15 (I got it used, so I don't know about the original cord that came with it). Just slightly moving the sub can cause the power cord to slip out enough so the sub loses power. So when I read your post, I was wondering if the problem was a bad cord, or just that the first cord was somewhat loose in the jack.
The 14 awg replacement cord I mentioned picking up from the computer recycling store here in town fits it the AC jack very tight and I have no fear that it will work it's way loose, no way, no how.
post #9209 of 15139
I have LV12R sub. I have set the Power to AUTO.

The manual says "AUTO detects the input signal and turns on the amp immediately and turns off the amp after 45 minutes of inactivity".
I noticed that sometimes the sub would not turn off by itself. Last night I watched a movie then turned everything off leaving the sub on Auto. In the morning it was still on.

Does anyone have an explanation for this?
Also do you guys set your subs to Auto or On?

Thanks
post #9210 of 15139
The cable to the sub may be picking up enough noise to keep the sub on, or be catching an occasional noise pop radiated into the system. I turn mine off. You could try a different cable to the sub (maybe a Blue Jeans Cable or other high-quality cable with a good shield) and/or re-routing the cable you have to keep it away from other cables and walls.

I have seen the pop from a light switch kick on one of my (older, non-Rythmik) subs.

The sub does not draw much power when idle so it probably would not hurt to leave it on. In my area power glitches are not uncommon and I prefer to keep equipment off when not in use. I am using the trigger output from my AVR to drive an X10 transmitter, then a (pair of, actually) appliances module to turn on and off the subs.
Edited by DonH50 - 4/14/13 at 2:24pm
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