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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 316

post #9451 of 15139
How would you hook up two subs as a stereo L/R pair? The 7.2 and 9.2 receivers I have looked at do not appear to have stereo sub out connections. While they do have two subwoofer output connections, they both appear to be identical summed mono signals rather than true stereo L/R channels.
post #9452 of 15139
The argument against stereo subs is the fact that frequencies below 80-100hz is non-directional, so having two separate channels gets you very little, if anything at all.

Not saying what is right or wrong...just food for thought.
post #9453 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The argument against stereo subs is the fact that frequencies below 80-100hz is non-directional, so having two separate channels gets you very little, if anything at all.

Not saying what is right or wrong...just food for thought.
Agree,
Not to mention unless its mixed into two channels for a ".2" as in two specific sup channels of LFE and/or music its going to be the same data regardless.
post #9454 of 15139
Where the cut-off is varies for different people; most cannot locate the sub below 80 Hz.

I use stereo subs in my system. I do not use my AVR's sub out; instead, I take the L/R line outputs into an external crossover to split the sub (LF) and mains (HF). I crossover around 50 Hz, a number that will vary with speakers and such. This also implies the main speakers and sub are run off their own power amplifiers, of course.
post #9455 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The argument against stereo subs is the fact that frequencies below 80-100hz is non-directional, so having two separate channels gets you very little, if anything at all.

Not saying what is right or wrong...just food for thought.

If you listen predominantly to studio recording, yes, that's true. However, recordings made in large, "wet" (reverberant) halls and/or churches, as many Classical recordings are, there is some low-frequency, out-of-phase information in even stereo recordings. That information, which conveys the size of the venue and the location/imaging of the instruments on the stage, is lost if the the sub signal is summed to mono. For fun, hook up your L/R Stereo speakers with their phase inverted and listen.
Edited by BDP24 - 4/25/13 at 11:35am
post #9456 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

How would you hook up two subs as a stereo L/R pair? The 7.2 and 9.2 receivers I have looked at do not appear to have stereo sub out connections. While they do have two subwoofer output connections, they both appear to be identical summed mono signals rather than true stereo L/R channels.

Can you get your signal from the high-level (speaker) jacks? I don't know---my plate amps don't have them.
Edited by BDP24 - 4/25/13 at 11:39am
post #9457 of 15139
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post #9458 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 
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post #9459 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

?

No way to to delete!
post #9460 of 15139
You don't have a red "X" next to the "Edit pencil"?

post #9461 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Where the cut-off is varies for different people; most cannot locate the sub below 80 Hz.

I use stereo subs in my system. I do not use my AVR's sub out; instead, I take the L/R line outputs into an external crossover to split the sub (LF) and mains (HF). I crossover around 50 Hz, a number that will vary with speakers and such. This also implies the main speakers and sub are run off their own power amplifiers, of course.

Finally I see someone who actually implemented this kind of setup. I like the idea of having a small satellite speakers (tweeter+ 4" midbass) and a subwoofer dedicated for that channel. It's basically making it a full range speaker 20Hz - 28kHz without the large imposing speaker. This would mean 5 or 7 Rythmik DS1200s plus two existing F25 CI as the true sub for LFE. Do you think it is going to cause problem like "cancellation issues"?
post #9462 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

If you listen predominantly to studio recording, yes, that's true. However, recordings made in large, "wet" (reverberant) halls and/or churches, as many Classical recordings are, there is some low-frequency, out-of-phase information in even stereo recordings. That information, which conveys the size of the venue and the location/imaging of the instruments on the stage, is lost if the the sub signal is summed to mono. For fun, hook up your L/R Stereo speakers with their phase inverted and listen.
Interesting.

So it is the out of phase information from left and right subs interacting with each other?
post #9463 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by nith View Post

Finally I see someone who actually implemented this kind of setup. I like the idea of having a small satellite speakers (tweeter+ 4" midbass) and a subwoofer dedicated for that channel. It's basically making it a full range speaker 20Hz - 28kHz without the large imposing speaker. This would mean 5 or 7 Rythmik DS1200s plus two existing F25 CI as the true sub for LFE. Do you think it is going to cause problem like "cancellation issues"?
In that case, I think we need a very good and clean external crossover.
post #9464 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by nith View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Where the cut-off is varies for different people; most cannot locate the sub below 80 Hz.

I use stereo subs in my system. I do not use my AVR's sub out; instead, I take the L/R line outputs into an external crossover to split the sub (LF) and mains (HF). I crossover around 50 Hz, a number that will vary with speakers and such. This also implies the main speakers and sub are run off their own power amplifiers, of course.

Finally I see someone who actually implemented this kind of setup. I like the idea of having a small satellite speakers (tweeter+ 4" midbass) and a subwoofer dedicated for that channel. It's basically making it a full range speaker 20Hz - 28kHz without the large imposing speaker. This would mean 5 or 7 Rythmik DS1200s plus two existing F25 CI as the true sub for LFE. Do you think it is going to cause problem like "cancellation issues"?

Actually, my main L/R speakers are Magnepan MG-IIIa's, a bit larger than your average little satellite. I have had several small satellite systems over the years and have just never liked them. They rolled off too high and I just never had a seamless transition to the sub. I am also on the low end of the localization frequency range, compounding the problem.

Most of the LF content is routed to the LFE channel in movies. I would think having all "large" speakers would be a significant challenge to dial in. Yes, all sorts of wave summing and subtracting.

I use a fairly cheap pro crossover (dbx 223s). Seems to work for me.

FWIWFM - Don
post #9465 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

You don't have a red "X" next to the "Edit pencil"?


Nope. I have a flag and a pencil, no x. I'll have to look into that.
post #9466 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

In that case, I think we need a very good and clean external crossover.

Or, you can get the original Rythmik PEQ plate amp instead of the PEQ3. The original has HPF (at 80 hz) on RCA jacks, the signal of which goes to your main speakers amp. Or, if your power amp has XLR jacks, the XLR2 version of the Rythmik amp has HPF (also at 80hz) on XLR's. The great thing about the XLR2, is that if you have more than two subs, you can daisy-chain them off of the XLR jacks.
Edited by BDP24 - 4/25/13 at 8:32pm
post #9467 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

In that case, I think we need a very good and clean external crossover.

I'm thinking of something like minidsp plus a good 7-ch power amp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

Or, you can get the original Rythmik PEQ plate amp instead of the PEQ3. The original has HPF (at 80 hz) on RCA jacks, the signal of which goes to your main speakers amp. Or, if your power amp has XLR jacks, the XLR2 version of the Rythmik amp has HPF (also at 80hz) on XLR's. The great thing about the XLR2, is that if you have more than two subs, you can daisy-chain them off of the XLR jacks.

80Hz is too low for a 4" driver. 100Hz to 120Hz would have been great.
post #9468 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Where the cut-off is varies for different people; most cannot locate the sub below 80 Hz.

I use stereo subs in my system. I do not use my AVR's sub out; instead, I take the L/R line outputs into an external crossover to split the sub (LF) and mains (HF). I crossover around 50 Hz, a number that will vary with speakers and such. This also implies the main speakers and sub are run off their own power amplifiers, of course.

What type of external crossover do you use?

Oops should have read a little farther down the thread. I see you have already answered this.
post #9469 of 15139
Off-the-cuff, so I am sure some price estimates are wrong or at least out of date:

The miniDSP is a great little DSP-based unit for DIY types with decent sound for 4100 - $300 or so.
Behringer makes some DSP-based units for $300 - $500.
Pro companies like dbx, Rane, and others make pro crossovers from maybe $300 to $3k or so, analog on the low end, digital on the high end. Manley etc. up to maybe $5k.
Marchand makes some great passive and active crossovers for maybe $600 to $3k.
Bryston makes a really nice crossover for around $3k
DEQx, Lexicon, etc. make room processors/crossovers for maybe $5 to $20k and up.

There are a lot of options out there.
post #9470 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Anything in specific? Looks like they put out almost a dozen albums. I'm always on the lookout for subwoofer torture material.

Jim - Check out the album: BASS BOY song title "I Love Big Speakers" and let us know what ya think?
post #9471 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Off-the-cuff, so I am sure some price estimates are wrong or at least out of date:

The miniDSP is a great little DSP-based unit for DIY types with decent sound for 4100 - $300 or so.
Behringer makes some DSP-based units for $300 - $500.
Pro companies like dbx, Rane, and others make pro crossovers from maybe $300 to $3k or so, analog on the low end, digital on the high end. Manley etc. up to maybe $5k.
Marchand makes some great passive and active crossovers for maybe $600 to $3k.
Bryston makes a really nice crossover for around $3k
DEQx, Lexicon, etc. make room processors/crossovers for maybe $5 to $20k and up.

There are a lot of options out there.

And I have the classic Dahlquist x-over I don't need any more. I've gone passive 1st order on my Quads.
post #9472 of 15139
These are probably going to be filter 101 questions but I am trying to understand how everything fits together.

The dbx 223s external crossover ($230 on dbx's site) has 24dB per octave Linkwitz-Riley filters.

Example: stereo amplifier (no bass management), full range main speakers and external crossover frequency set to 80Hz.

Am I correct in my understanding that this does not mean that no frequencies below 80 Hz will be sent to the main speakers but that frequencies below 80 Hz will roll off at 24 dB per octave i.e. a 60 Hz (1/4 octave) signal will be sent to the main speakers but it will be 6dB less than the 80 Hz signal and a 40 Hz (1/2 octave) signal would be 12dB less than the 80 Hz signal?

At what point (how many dB below the 80 Hz signal) would you no longer get any usable output from the main speaker (i.e. -3, -6, -9, -12 ... dB)?

In the example above, would the sub's crossover be set at 80 Hz or higher?

What is the slope of the HPF on the PEQ amp?
post #9473 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift View Post

Jim - Check out the album: BASS BOY song title "I Love Big Speakers" and let us know what ya think?

I'll add that one to my list. Thanks...
post #9474 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post


Am I correct in my understanding that this does not mean that no frequencies below 80 Hz will be sent to the main speakers but that frequencies below 80 Hz will roll off at 24 dB per octave i.e. a 60 Hz (1/4 octave) signal will be sent to the main speakers but it will be 6dB less than the 80 Hz signal and a 40 Hz (1/2 octave) signal would be 12dB less than the 80 Hz signal?

At what point (how many dB below the 80 Hz signal) would you no longer get any usable output from the main speaker (i.e. -3, -6, -9, -12 ... dB)?

Actually 40 Hz is 1 octave below 80 Hz, so you'd be down 24 dB at 40 Hz and down 48 dB at 20 Hz (2 octaves below 80 Hz). 60 Hz would not be exactly half an octave below 80 Hz because the octave vs frequency relationship is not linear.

As far as how far down in dB you have to be to have negligible output, I'd say by 12 - 15 dB (which is well above 40 Hz for a 24dB/octave xover at 80 Hz). Remember that 10 dB down sounds subjectively like about half the volume, and 1/10 of the amplifier power
post #9475 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

And I have the classic Dahlquist x-over I don't need any more. I've gone passive 1st order on my Quads.

I have had ESLs and Magnepans with passive 1st and 2nd order crossovers. For the LF crossover, I much prefer higher orders; the panels do not like big bass signals. The mid/tweeter crossovers, maybe... I ended up with an active 3rd-order between Maggies and subwoofer in my last design (years ago). The passives left the distortion too high and dynamic range more constricted because they didn't roll off the bass fast enough where I set them. The L-R designs that preserve phase as well as amplitude at the crossover seem to do well and that is what I am currently using.

All my preference, natch.
post #9476 of 15139
Well I broke down. I wanted to wait on the FV15HP, but I couldn't stand having to wait another 5 weeks for it so I got two LV12R's. I figure I won't be disappointed from all the reviews on here.

Pioneer sc1522k
4 level 3 htd towers
4 level 3 htd bookshelfs
1 level 3 htd center
2 rythmik lv12r subwoofers
Room 12x17x8

Now just need to find a good 65" or bigger tv to go with it all.

Don't know why I had the room at 30x17x9 but hey was moving in sight unseen. Anyway just hope I'm doing the right thing not waiting on the fv15hp...
post #9477 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by KcG704 View Post

Well I broke down. I wanted to wait on the FV15HP, but I couldn't stand having to wait another 5 weeks for it so I got two LV12R's. I figure I won't be disappointed from all the reviews on here.

Pioneer sc1522k
4 level 3 htd towers
4 level 3 htd bookshelfs
1 level 3 htd center
2 rythmik lv12r subwoofers
Room 12x17x8

Now just need to find a good 65" or bigger tv to go with it all.

Don't know why I had the room at 30x17x9 but hey was moving in sight unseen. Anyway just hope I'm doing the right thing not waiting on the fv15hp...
Why a 5 week wait? Are they back-ordered? I ordered and received mine in ~1 1/2 weeks, less than a month ago.
post #9478 of 15139
Unless I paid $225 more fore piano black. Which I am to frugal to do LoL...
post #9479 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

The best sound for music is 14hz/hi damping. High damping has less ringing and it has a much more gradual roll-off.

The setting for auto calibration is just temporary. Let us assume the software is capable of achieving same consistent calibrated response if the pre-calibration curves are well behaved. BTW, switch damping control does not introduce new peak or null, so it is reasonable to assume Audyssey will come back with very similar calibrated curves. If one set the extension to 28hz, the software may even boost the band between 20hz and 30hz. So the idea to present the low damping curve to calibration program. And then check the sound. If you think it is too boomy, then you can switch the damping back to high. If one had used high damping for calibration, then there is no "ultra" high damping setting to fall back to. If the sound is good, there is no need to make further damping adjustment.

I encourage everyone to adapt the idea. Alternatively, one can also use 14hz/med damping for sealed subs and afterwards, one can use low damping to make the bass even more "full body" (or boomy)by switching back low damping, or more articulate by switching back to high damping. Of course, there is nothing wrong using 14hz/high damping for calibration if the result is right on what you expect. My rationale here is the software should also give you very similar calibrated curve if the damping were set to med damping or low damping. For vented subs, my recommendation is to use 14hz/low damping as the vented subs already sound more full body than sealed subs.

Brian-I took your advice of switching to Low Damping before a recent Audyssey calibration and noticed a nice improvement with my subs. After switching them back to High Damping afterwards and running through some of my usual LFE demos the bass sounds even better. What's interesting is that my AVR sub trim levels are the lowest they have ever been after an Audyssey calibration but I don't feel the need to bump them up like I have in the past.
post #9480 of 15139
Quote:
Originally Posted by KcG704 View Post

Well I broke down. I wanted to wait on the FV15HP, but I couldn't stand having to wait another 5 weeks for it so I got two LV12R's. I figure I won't be disappointed from all the reviews on here.

Pioneer sc1522k
4 level 3 htd towers
4 level 3 htd bookshelfs
1 level 3 htd center
2 rythmik lv12r subwoofers
Room 12x17x8

Now just need to find a good 65" or bigger tv to go with it all.

Don't know why I had the room at 30x17x9 but hey was moving in sight unseen. Anyway just hope I'm doing the right thing not waiting on the fv15hp...
Damn! My living room is the same size and my one and only F12 shakes the walls and everything in the room without breaking a sweat!

Careful you don't bring down the house... literally! wink.gif
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