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Official Rythmik Audio Subwoofer thread - Page 323

post #9661 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

I use mid damping and 14 Hz for movies, seldom play music lately. I hear more of a difference between mid and low than mid and high damping.

Keep in mind when selecting settings that the high damping setting with 14Hz puts the sub at risk of over-excursion if driven hard in a large room. This was posted by Brian some time ago.

I'm running the FV15HP in an 18x14x8 room so even at high volume I'm not concerned with over excursion but for larger rooms you should be mindful.
Interesting. I was under the impression that it was the rumble filter that was largely responsible for keeping the driver from overexcursion. I was also under the impression that high damping is better than low damping at controlling the driver and that seems to play out when I watch how far the driver moves using these different settings. With the sub set to low damping, the driver sure does move allot farther in and out than when set on high.

Maybe I need to go to Rythmik Subwoofer school so I can fully understand the workings of my sub. LOL smile.gif
post #9662 of 15163
My feeling was that if each 400w amp module was driving two 8ohm 1501s, it would reduce the heat buildup in each voice coil, and reduce the amount of power needed to displace a given amount of air, thereby adding to the room pressurization feel, and making life easier on the drivers AND the amplifier... Is there a hole in my logic?
post #9663 of 15163
Not sure it makes life any easier for the amp since it now sees two loads (drivers) instead of one, but if you use twice the drivers their individual excursions should be less.

I am not sure how you would hook up the servo feedback circuit on an extra driver, however. That may be the issue with using two drivers on one amp (only one feedback loop)
post #9664 of 15163
BDP24
well
then change of partitions has to yield result
as on my picture above
post #9665 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unikym View Post

BDP24
well
then change of partitions has to yield result
as on my picture above
The DIY section on the Rythmik website has the plans for both a down-firing and a forward-firing cabinet. The dimensions are included for the 1501 driver. Slight adjustments would allow for the 1510. Plus, all of the 15" drivers---the 1501, 1505, and 1510---can be installed in a cabinet with an internal volume of up to 4 cu.ft.
Edited by BDP24 - 5/21/13 at 12:10pm
post #9666 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Not sure it makes life any easier for the amp since it now sees two loads (drivers) instead of one, but if you use twice the drivers their individual excursions should be less.

I am not sure how you would hook up the servo feedback circuit on an extra driver, however. That may be the issue with using two drivers on one amp (only one feedback loop)

Don has a good point. Though the A370 amp's design allowed for it's use with two 8 ohm drivers (that's what the original F25 was), the new 800 amp apparently does not. Go by what Brian says (always a good idea!)---the new amp is not usable with two drivers, even if they are the 8 ohm 1501. The feedback hookup for two drivers, however, is not a problem. The feedback wiring is run in parallel (or is it series? It's the opposite of how the power wiring is run)---that's how the GR OB subs (2-3 12" 16 ohm drivers per amp) are hooked up.
Edited by BDP24 - 5/21/13 at 12:18pm
post #9667 of 15163
The reply was from Enrico, but I'm presuming that hes well informed, and/or consulted with Brian about the idea.
post #9668 of 15163
BDP24
my almost made according to drawings 1501
I decided to change on 1510
therefore such changes are necessary
post #9669 of 15163
If you can wait, I'll measure my 1510 drivers today and post their dimensions.
post #9670 of 15163
I was just made aware of something I overlooked about my Marantz SR5007 AVR. The LPF for the LFE is selectable. The crossover for the LFE can be set at 80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz / 150Hz / 200Hz / or 250Hz.

I understand that the LFE channel has dedicated content up to 250Hz but my F12 is not supposed to be crossed over higher than 90Hz. Since the F12 is not intended for content above 90Hz should I set the LFE LPF in the Marantz at 90Hz and just forgo the content above this point since it cannot be redirected to any ot the other channels?
post #9671 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unikym View Post

BDP24
my almost made according to drawings 1501
I decided to change on 1510
therefore such changes are necessary

Okay here are the dimensions of the DS1510: The distance from the rear of the mounting flange to the back of the magnet assembly is 8.125 " (8 1/8"). The diameter of the magnet structure at it's widest is 7.875" (7 7/8"). The mounting flange is 15.25" (15 1/4") in diameter, and 0.375" (3/8") thick. The width of the flange is 11/16", and the 8 spokes of the driver's frame come right to the inside edge of the flange, so the through hole in the baffle should be 15 1/4" minus 2 X 11/16", or 13.875 (13 7/8").
post #9672 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

I was just made aware of something I overlooked about my Marantz SR5007 AVR. The LPF for the LFE is selectable. The crossover for the LFE can be set at 80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz / 150Hz / 200Hz / or 250Hz.

I understand that the LFE channel has dedicated content up to 250Hz but my F12 is not supposed to be crossed over higher than 90Hz. Since the F12 is not intended for content above 90Hz should I set the LFE LPF in the Marantz at 90Hz and just forgo the content above this point since it cannot be redirected to any ot the other channels?

The .1 LFE channel only has output up to 120Hz, so most people set it for that.
post #9673 of 15163
BDP24
now, when there are loudspeaker sizes
it is possible to cut off less

thanks

post #9674 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

I was just made aware of something I overlooked about my Marantz SR5007 AVR. The LPF for the LFE is selectable. The crossover for the LFE can be set at 80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz / 150Hz / 200Hz / or 250Hz.

I understand that the LFE channel has dedicated content up to 250Hz but my F12 is not supposed to be crossed over higher than 90Hz. Since the F12 is not intended for content above 90Hz should I set the LFE LPF in the Marantz at 90Hz and just forgo the content above this point since it cannot be redirected to any ot the other channels?

The .1 LFE channel only has output up to 120Hz, so most people set it for that.

+1. And, different AVRs handle LFE differently. My Pioneer uses a single crossover for everything and any LFE info above that is lost. Most redirect the LFE content above the crossover to the L/R speakers. Note that LFE crossover is only for the LFE channel, not the speaker crossover points.
post #9675 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

I was just made aware of something I overlooked about my Marantz SR5007 AVR. The LPF for the LFE is selectable. The crossover for the LFE can be set at 80Hz / 90Hz / 100Hz / 110Hz / 120Hz / 150Hz / 200Hz / or 250Hz.

I understand that the LFE channel has dedicated content up to 250Hz but my F12 is not supposed to be crossed over higher than 90Hz. Since the F12 is not intended for content above 90Hz should I set the LFE LPF in the Marantz at 90Hz and just forgo the content above this point since it cannot be redirected to any ot the other channels?

I have a SR5007 and love it. As to internal AVR menu settings, the LFE channel is set to "LFE" and the "crossovers" are set to 80Hz.

One thing I've noticed about the amplifier section of the SR5007, it has insufficient capacitors for when the sound track for the action sequence cranks up and the subs output goes up, the speaker created sounds seems to fade to the background. The solution to this perceived phenomenon is to add a separate amplifier such as an Emotiva, XPA-5. I've yet to do this as it's all about the Benjamins but it's definitely something I feel that needs to be done in the near future.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 5/23/13 at 7:23am
post #9676 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDP24 View Post

That's surprising, because the A370 amp in the original F25 powered two 8 ohm 1501 drivers. For more dough, you can put an H600 and a pair of 8 ohm 1501's in each cab, I believe.


I have two f25 and they have H600 PEQ servo amps at 600watts in each. But one amp in each dual cabinet not two as in the more recent model which has two 400watt amps in each dual sub cabinet. My f25's are about one and half year old,I use mine at hi damping with 14hz extension they have never bottomedg out. I listen to music loud around -7db to -4db, and movies at reference level with no problems except maybe my ears:D just kidding honey! My amps at the front are 1550 watts rms and the side/back rears at 400 watts rms.










PeterV
post #9677 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unikym View Post

BDP24
now, when there are loudspeaker sizes
it is possible to cut off less

thanks


Yep, that should do the trick. Easy fix!
post #9678 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

The .1 LFE channel only has output up to 120Hz, so most people set it for that.

Thanks Jim. The default for the 5007 is 120 Hz but apparently Audyssey set it to 110 Hz. I reset it for 90 Hz. The F12 seems to like this much better. I may drop it down to 80 Hz and see how it does.

Mike
post #9679 of 15163
^^
LFE channel should be set or left at 120hz. Changing it to 80, you will miss the the frequency range between 80 and 120 for the LFE channel.
post #9680 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

Thanks Jim. The default for the 5007 is 120 Hz but apparently Audyssey set it to 110 Hz. I reset it for 90 Hz. The F12 seems to like this much better. I may drop it down to 80 Hz and see how it does.

Are you certain it's the LFE channel that Audyssey is adjusting? I don't recall every seeing it do that - the crossover between the speakers and subwoofer yes, but not the LPF for LFE.
post #9681 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlundy57 View Post

Thanks Jim. The default for the 5007 is 120 Hz but apparently Audyssey set it to 110 Hz. I reset it for 90 Hz. The F12 seems to like this much better. I may drop it down to 80 Hz and see how it does.

Mike

As others have stated, the LPF of LFE affects only the discreet .1 channel of multichannel content and should be left at 120Hz unless you have some compelling reason to change it. LPF of LFE explained in the Audyssey FAQ.

If you want to adjust the "normal" speaker crossovers they should be done in the Speakers -> Manual Setup -> Crossover section on your AVR (if the menus are anything like my Denon).

If your F12 has the PEQ2 or PEQ3 amplifier and you are using the LFE input (not the Line-In), the the flat response extends to 200Hz. When using the LFE input you are not limited to crossing over at 100Hz or less like when using the Line-In input.

Am curious to know what makes you think the F12 "likes" the LPF of LFE set at 90Hz?
post #9682 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

Are you certain it's the LFE channel that Audyssey is adjusting? I don't recall every seeing it do that - the crossover between the speakers and subwoofer yes, but not the LPF for LFE.

That would be my guess since the default according to the manual 120 Hz and when I looked at it last night it was set for 110 Hz. That's not a change I ever made so something changed it, unless it was set up incorrectly at the factory.

Mike
post #9683 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

As others have stated, the LPF of LFE affects only the discreet .1 channel of multichannel content and should be left at 120Hz unless you have some compelling reason to change it. LPF of LFE explained in the Audyssey FAQ.

If you want to adjust the "normal" speaker crossovers they should be done in the Speakers -> Manual Setup -> Crossover section on your AVR (if the menus are anything like my Denon).

If your F12 has the PEQ2 or PEQ3 amplifier and you are using the LFE input (not the Line-In), the the flat response extends to 200Hz. When using the LFE input you are not limited to crossing over at 100Hz or less like when using the Line-In input.

Am curious to know what makes you think the F12 "likes" the LPF of LFE set at 90Hz?

The problem I see with leaving it at 120Hz is the statement from Rythmik that the F12 (with the DS1200 driver) is not designed for a crossover above 90Hz. If you want to cross the sub over higher than 90Hz you need to get the F12G (with the GR Research driver). I have the F12 with the DS1200 driver so as I understand their instructions I should limit the LFE to no more than 90Hz.
post #9684 of 15163
Isn't this referring to the crossover and not the LPF setting of the LFE?
post #9685 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Isn't this referring to the crossover and not the LPF setting of the LFE?

That's where I was going with my question too. I never had Audyssey "fix" the LPF for my LFE channel, so I'm curious as to how his version is (seemingly) doing that.
post #9686 of 15163
Just a quick question regarding the 120hz x-over........at what frequency does the sub start to make itself "appear"? FWIW, I know that THX recommends a x-over point of 80hz..
post #9687 of 15163
Depends on the person and many other variables. Years ago I helped with a study and we found 80 Hz was about the point most people could no longer localize the sub. Some could not as high as 100 Hz, and others could find it as low as between 50 and 60 Hz. IIRC everybody could localize above 100 Hz or so, none below 50 Hz, with a fairly high peak around 75 - 80 Hz where most of the folk could not tell where the sub was in the room or in a field/anechoic chamber. Surprised a number of people as the going theory flying around back then was that a sub needed to be crossed over around 40 Hz and the study blew away that notion.
post #9688 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

That's where I was going with my question too. I never had Audyssey "fix" the LPF for my LFE channel.

Gotcha-I missed your post. I was under the impression that this setting can only be changed manually and that Audyssey completely ignores it. Mine always stayed at the factory 120 post calibration and after changing it to 80 it stays there as well.
post #9689 of 15163
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Depends on the person and many other variables. Years ago I helped with a study and we found 80 Hz was about the point most people could no longer localize the sub. Some could not as high as 100 Hz, and others could find it as low as between 50 and 60 Hz. IIRC everybody could localize above 100 Hz or so, none below 50 Hz, with a fairly high peak around 75 - 80 Hz where most of the folk could not tell where the sub was in the room or in a field/anechoic chamber. Surprised a number of people as the going theory flying around back then was that a sub needed to be crossed over around 40 Hz and the study blew away that notion.
So it sounds like that study would confirm the fact that a cross-over of 120hz is gonna cause the sub to be easily recognized. Maybe that is desired by some but I've always been taught that you kind of want your subs crossed at a point just low enough to make them disappear............but then I'm "old school". biggrin.gif
post #9690 of 15163
Because bass tends toward mono in most mixes a sub centered between the L/R speakers can work at higher (100+ Hz) crossover frequencies. I ran my system that way for some time before getting larger speakers that allowed me to set the crossover lower. However, that is rarely the best spot for the sub aesthetically or sound-wise.

I was on the low side of the study, around 60'ish Hz. My current subs are crossed around 50 - 55 Hz (forget where I set them; I use an external active crossover in my system).

I have always felt that if you can hear the sub it's too loud and/or crossed too high. Sub frequencies are felt, not heard.

Again IMO/IME - Don
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