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LG Trumotion 120hz question, HELP!

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
I just got a 37" 37LH40 set, and am generally pleased with it, minus weird on-and-off audio sync (but I've already seen this discussed and LG claims it'll either send me the firmware update or have someone do it).

The thing I'm confused about is the Trumotion feature. Is LG's Trumotion the same thing as 120hz, or is it simply something that enhances the 120hz quality of the TV? What I'm getting at is, if I turn it completely off, does that mean I'm not watching in 120hz anymore?

The reason I'm asking this is that I've been noticing some ugly compression artifacting when the mode is ON, and worse when it's High as opposed to Low, but is completely absent when the mode's off.
If anyone has a PS3 and Assassin's Creed 2, they can do this to see exactly the problem I'm describing:

1. Load up the game and go to any of the Viewpoints in the game, making sure it's daytime (the compression is harder to see when it's nighttime in-game)
2. Do the spin-around effect on top of the Viewpoint, first with the Trumotion off, then Low, then High.

With Low or High on, there's some ugly compression artifacting during the spinning animation on the background surrounding your character and the tower he's on. Is this normal for Trumotion? Or is mine faulty in some way?


So, long story short, my two questions are:
- Are Trumotion and 120hz the same thing, or is the TV ALWAYS 120hz?
- Is compression artifacting normal for Trumotion (have others noticed it), or is there a problem here?
post #2 of 32
Two difference things. The TV has a refresh rate and that could be 60hz, 120hz or 240hz. That is constant and can never be turned off.

The 3D effect you describe is something called frame rate interpolization. Some manufacturers confuse the issue by labeling it 120hz. That feature can be turned off and in some sets adjusted. What the manufacturer does with this is to double the number of frames every second, that's why you see a simulated 3D effect. It something that takes some getting used to. I started using low and gradually moved it up every few days. Now I wouldn't have a TV without it.
post #3 of 32
Thread Starter 
Well that helps clear it up a bit, although I still haven't been able to find any specs for my TV where it says that it is 120hz without also tagging on "Trumotion" to it... which makes me wonder if my TV is naturally 120hz.

I still would like to know if anyone has noticed compression artifacting while watching Trumotion, or if my TV's potentially messed up.
post #4 of 32
You could look at the specs in your Owner's manual and find out the refresh rate?
post #5 of 32
i hate the truMotion feature on my LG 120hz set as well. Even playing Planet earth on bluray from my PS3 I see the artifacts in some shots.
post #6 of 32
*slightly long winded*

this is exactly why I have a hard time with these new TVs and all the processing they try to do to a perfectly good signal.

when I've got a source shot at 24fps, do I really want a TV adding 3 and 4 extra frames per refresh sequence so I can "see" the original 24fps? absolutely not.

it looks like LG is stating that their panel is truly 120Hz . I may be wrong, but I believe the panel is truly 60Hz and uses a processor to use frame interpolation so it can "match up" with 24fps sources - primarily film-based content - to get the 120Hz spec. Video and most HD content are shot at 30fps sources, meaning the Trumotion processor is doing nothing but adding extra frames that you don't need.

if this were my TV, I would make sure I've got all my picture settings - color, brightness, sharpness, contrast - dialed in, then turn off *all* extra processing. make sure your PS3 is set to 1080p/24 output. I would then experiment with the Trumotion settings to see which one gave me what I would think is the closest representation of the original material as possible. Most likely, my tastes would opt for the full "off" setting.

if you can't already tell, I can't stand all the extra processing these manufacturers are shoving down our throats.

go here for a great (slightly dated) write up on 120Hz and the inherent issues with frame interpolation and motion artifacts.
post #7 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimithng23 View Post

*slightly long winded*

this is exactly why I have a hard time with these new TVs and all the processing they try to do to a perfectly good signal.

when I've got a source shot at 24fps, do I really want a TV adding 3 and 4 extra frames per refresh sequence so I can "see" the original 24fps? absolutely not.

it looks like LG is stating that their panel is truly 120Hz . I may be wrong, but I believe the panel is truly 60Hz and uses a processor to use frame interpolation so it can "match up" with 24fps sources - primarily film-based content - to get the 120Hz spec. Video and most HD content are shot at 30fps sources, meaning the Trumotion processor is doing nothing but adding extra frames that you don't need.

if this were my TV, I would make sure I've got all my picture settings - color, brightness, sharpness, contrast - dialed in, then turn off *all* extra processing. make sure your PS3 is set to 1080p/24 output. I would then experiment with the Trumotion settings to see which one gave me what I would think is the closest representation of the original material as possible. Most likely, my tastes would opt for the full "off" setting.

if you can't already tell, I can't stand all the extra processing these manufacturers are shoving down our throats.

go here for a great (slightly dated) write up on 120Hz and the inherent issues with frame interpolation and motion artifacts.

its all really a matter of personal opinions, what is nice is that most major manufactures today realize this and provide the end user with control over what it does and how much it does, the current samsung sets have the best implementation with their AMP because it allows control over 2 separate things it can do and allows for 0-10 settings on both allowing a user to more fine tune it to their liking

most other companies just allow anywhere from on or off to off-low-medium-high etc.

i'm like most people i dislike the judder and blurryness of watching films on an LCD without interpolation and at their "true 24 frame rate" but at the same time also dislike motion interpolation that is too agressive and makes movies look odd, fake or unrealistic

my current TV is a sony 32XBR6 and it has sony's 60hz motionflow that is extremely limited, it only works with films that have been converted to 60fps via 2:3 pulldown already and it takes that signal applies a reverse 2:3 pulldown on it and then applies motion interpolation. because its a 60hz set it is limited to adding just a single frame in-between each frame in a film and it does not remove all judder just the minor movement judder that is extremely annoying to me.

i've also seen and played with many 120/240hz TV's in stores and at friends houses and i think samsung's can do a great job if you adjust them right and sony also works well when set to the lower setting but in the end its always a matter of personal preference with this sort of thing
post #8 of 32
When LG decided to call that particular function TruMotion that should tell all of you that it is referring to motion blur reduction. Instead people constantly mix this up with sources shot at 24 fps.

There are 4 frame rates (which is what motion blur comes from).

True 240 Hz
Quasi 240 which is 120 Hz with a scanning back-light.
120 Hz
60 Hz

Other artifacts that people constantly confuse with motion blur reduction should be kept seperate from frame rate and motion blur reduction.

If what I am saying weren't true, why would Samsung have 2 different adjustments with a scale frome 1 - 10 on each one?
post #9 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

When LG decided to call that particular function TruMotion that should tell all of you that it is referring to motion blur reduction. Instead people constantly mix this up with sources shot at 24 fps.

There are 4 frame rates (which is what motion blur comes from).

True 240 Hz
Quasi 240 which is 120 Hz with a scanning back-light.
120 Hz
60 Hz

Other artifacts that people constantly confuse with motion blur reduction should be kept seperate from frame rate and motion blur reduction.

If what I am saying weren't true, why would Samsung have 2 different adjustments with a scale frome 1 - 10 on each one?

4 frame rates in respect to what? Panel refresh rates, original content rate, or output rate? True 240Hz - what source gives me 240Hz?

I don't see where any body disagreed with what you are saying as some manf's have multiple adjustments and settings.

when the refresh rates don't match up properly, introducing noise into the picture, and then on top of that we try to "smooth" the motion with another processor, of course the picture will have all types of things wrong with it. that's the point of this thread and the OPs concern.

if the OPs panel is a 60Hz panel, then it has to manipulate a 24fps source in some way. if it is truly 120Hz, then it is adding frames, causing artifacts, and then trying to smooth the picture. that's a recipe for disaster in my mind...

give me a 72Hz Kuro panel and be done with all this crap!
post #10 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimithng23 View Post

4 frame rates in respect to what? Panel refresh rates, original content rate, or output rate? True 240Hz - what source gives me 240Hz?

I don't see where any body disagreed with what you are saying as some manf's have multiple adjustments and settings.

when the refresh rates don't match up properly, introducing noise into the picture, and then on top of that we try to "smooth" the motion with another processor, of course the picture will have all types of things wrong with it. that's the point of this thread and the OPs concern.

if the OPs panel is a 60Hz panel, then it has to manipulate a 24fps source in some way. if it is truly 120Hz, then it is adding frames, causing artifacts, and then trying to smooth the picture. that's a recipe for disaster in my mind...

give me a 72Hz Kuro panel and be done with all this crap!

artifacts are only a disaster when its done poorly or turned up much too high

also guys lets not bring in the whole 60 vs 120 vs 240hz thing its been done many, many times before on this thread and the discussions go next to nowhere

look one of the threads up if you wish
post #11 of 32
I agree with you 100% on the frame rate discussion. I was simply looking for clarity on your previous post. I only brought the issue up to try and help the OP out with his problem.
post #12 of 32
Thread Starter 
Wow a lot of responses! Thank you all for your input. I did manage to look up the TV on LG's own site, and it claims that the TV itself is 120 hz, so I'll have to trust that it really is 120hz and not just 60hz fixed up to seem like 120. It's just weird that that was the only site/source that listed the 120hz separate from "Trumotion."
The fact that Trumotion artifacts is annoying but if lotust notices it as well, then I guess that's just a downside of the mode and I might keep it off or something.


Now the bigger problem will be trying to rectify the audio sync issues, which people seem to have varying success with, but I guess time will tell on that...
post #13 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaddes View Post

Now the bigger problem will be trying to rectify the audio sync issues, which people seem to have varying success with, but I guess time will tell on that...

The only way to fix the A/V sync problem is to get a separate receiver for audio and mute the TV sound.
For DVD/Blu-ray run HDMI to the TV and audio from the DVD player to the AV receiver. (or keep experimenting for the best configuration, you'll never really fix the A/V sync problem with cable box and TV firmware updates)
post #14 of 32
I found sseveral sources on a search that said it is a 120HZ refresh rate TV.
When Trumotion is off all 60Hz content is displayed twice.
With Trumotion set to Low the TV will interpolate between each pair of 60fps frames and create an additional frame form all Large Opjects.
With Trumotion set to High Interploation will be performed betwwen all objects and this very easily causes artifacts asssociated with the smaller objects.
post #15 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimithng23 View Post

4 frame rates in respect to what? Panel refresh rates, original content rate, or output rate? True 240Hz - what source gives me 240Hz?

I don't see where any body disagreed with what you are saying as some manf's have multiple adjustments and settings.

when the refresh rates don't match up properly, introducing noise into the picture, and then on top of that we try to "smooth" the motion with another processor, of course the picture will have all types of things wrong with it. that's the point of this thread and the OPs concern.

if the OPs panel is a 60Hz panel, then it has to manipulate a 24fps source in some way. if it is truly 120Hz, then it is adding frames, causing artifacts, and then trying to smooth the picture. that's a recipe for disaster in my mind...

give me a 72Hz Kuro panel and be done with all this crap!

I don't know how to make it any clearer but i will try anyway. The panel refresh rate is what has Hz as its measure. This is inherent in the design and implementation of the panel.

You ask, "what source gives me 240 hz"

This strongly suggests that you are mixing the judder issue and motion blur reduction since the source does not dictate the refresh rate of the panel. Rather, the panel imposes its refresh rate on the source material, and if the source material happens to be film based, the unwanted video effect comes into play if the panel is not adjusted down to 60 Hz.

As I said, there are panels with 4 different frame rates:

1) True 240 Hz
2) Quasi 240 Hz which is 120 Hz with a scanning back-light.
3) 120 Hz
4) 60 Hz

There aren't that many panels with true 240 Hz, but to name a few, Samsung LNB750, Sony XBR 9, Sony V5100.

True 240 does a pretty good job of minimizing motion blur.
post #16 of 32
My mistake. I should've said 240fps instead of Hz...that's why I had your post confused, I wasn't sure if you were talking source or panel rate.

I have yet to see the true 240Hz panels in person so I cannot comment on their performance.
post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimithng23 View Post

My mistake. I should've said 240fps instead of Hz...that's why I had your post confused, I wasn't sure if you were talking source or panel rate.

I have yet to see the true 240Hz panels in person so I cannot comment on their performance.

most people can see no visible difference between the true 240hz sets vs 120hz sets from the same manufacture. CNET did a study on it as well that came up with the same conclusion that unless a special pattern was shown on the screen it was impossible to tell the difference between the 2
post #18 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

I don't know how to make it any clearer but i will try anyway. The panel refresh rate is what has Hz as its measure. This is inherent in the design and implementation of the panel.

You ask, "what source gives me 240 hz"

This strongly suggests that you are mixing the judder issue and motion blur reduction since the source does not dictate the refresh rate of the panel. Rather, the panel imposes its refresh rate on the source material, and if the source material happens to be film based, the unwanted video effect comes into play if the panel is not adjusted down to 60 Hz.

As I said, there are panels with 4 different frame rates:

1) True 240 Hz
2) Quasi 240 Hz which is 120 Hz with a scanning back-light.
3) 120 Hz
4) 60 Hz

There aren't that many panels with true 240 Hz, but to name a few, LG 55H90, Sony XBR 8, Toshiba SV670U.

True 240 does a pretty good job of minimizing motion blur.

Is it true that because LCD displays are actually sample and hold, when you turn off the true motion plus you end up with a refresh rate equal to the source? I read that somewhere and didn't know how accurate it was.

Just an aside, I'm more of a plasma guy but am interested in the LED LCD technology.
post #19 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

most people can see no visible difference between the true 240hz sets vs 120hz sets from the same manufacture. CNET did a study on it as well that came up with the same conclusion that unless a special pattern was shown on the screen it was impossible to tell the difference between the 2

I don't consider CNET to be the end-all and be-all of TV evaluation.

So, you believe that companies are including features that produce no visible difference?

Why don't you also mention this "study"?

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2356393,00.asp

According to this study there is no visible difference in motion blur between 240 Hz, 120 Hz, and 60 Hz panels.

Motion blur reduction must be a scam.
post #20 of 32
I consider the study refered to and the results that were published to be the definitive report on the TV models they tested as to have motion blur caused by too long a pixel response time.
However, I consider the study not relevent when motion blur is caused by the Smooth and Hold native characteristic of LCD panels aqnd not by the native panel resonse time.
I don't know if Fritos TV is one on the ones tested in the study or if Frito feels that the tests described would have passed the motion blur due to response time tests used in the study for his Sony TV.
post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaddes View Post

Well that helps clear it up a bit, although I still haven't been able to find any specs for my TV where it says that it is 120hz without also tagging on "Trumotion" to it... which makes me wonder if my TV is naturally 120hz.

I still would like to know if anyone has noticed compression artifacting while watching Trumotion, or if my TV's potentially messed up.

Yes - I have noticed the artifacts / blurring effect especially on close ups that PAN across. It is just plain weird. In other instances I get that I am watching a LIVE PLAY or something like that effect. I have to turned mine off but I do notice that it doesn't have that crispness that I like. Its not bad...just crisper with it on. Its a catch 22 to me.

You?

Glad I found this thread. Must have missed it the other day when searching. Oh yea...I have the LG 47 LED but still the feature is what I am interested in figuring out.
post #22 of 32
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Yes - I have noticed the artifacts / blurring effect especially on close ups that PAN across. It is just plain weird. In other instances I get that I am watching a LIVE PLAY or something like that effect. I have to turned mine off but I do notice that it doesn't have that crispness that I like. Its not bad...just crisper with it on. Its a catch 22 to me.

You?

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the problem. On any normal slow-moving pan or motion onscreen I never really notice it, but whenever there's a dramatic tilt/pan/rotate around a character, I can see the artifacts. I've kept it on for HD shows like House or NBC shows and actually I barely see the problem.... but ironically on the kind of fast-paced programming where I'd expect "Trumotion" to shine, then I see artifacting. You're right, it's not terrible, but I guess I was just expecting 100% crispness on my new LCD tv.
post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaddes View Post

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly the problem. On any normal slow-moving pan or motion onscreen I never really notice it, but whenever there's a dramatic tilt/pan/rotate around a character, I can see the artifacts. I've kept it on for HD shows like House or NBC shows and actually I barely see the problem.... but ironically on the kind of fast-paced programming where I'd expect "Trumotion" to shine, then I see artifacting. You're right, it's not terrible, but I guess I was just expecting 100% crispness on my new LCD tv.

For what it is worth, I found these calibration settings. I found it to mostly resolve the artifact issue with Trumotion on. I have made my own adjustment as this configuration was a little dark for me. I have noted appropriately.

Aspect Ration: 16x9
Backlight: 100
Contrast: 70
Brightness: 52
H Sharpness: 50
V Sharpness: 50
Color: 50
Tint: 0

Expert Control:
Dynamic Control: Off < I turned mine to medium to brighten>
Noise Reduction: Off
Gamma: Medium
Black Level: Low
Real Cinema: On
TruMotion 240Hz: Low

Color Gamut: Standard
Edge Enhancer: Off
Color Filter: Off
White Balance: Medium
Method: 10 Point IRE
Pattern: Outer
IRE: 90
Red: 4
Green: -5
Blue: -34
Red Color: 6
Red Tint: 0
Green Color: -1
Green Tint: -8
Blue Color: 9
Blue Tint: 0
Yellow Color: -2
Yellow Tint: 0
Cyan Color: -2
Cyan Tint: 0
Magenta Color: 8
Magenta Tint: -2

Try it and see if you like it.
post #24 of 32
Thread Starter 
Not sure about the Trumotion, but I loved the quality of my picture color-wise with those settings! (minus a little bit of tweaking for the darkness) Thank you
post #25 of 32
I'm probably one of the few people that happen to like the 'soap opera' effect or 3d effect that the majority of people dislike.

I had an LG 47SL80 but returned it because the motion processor was producing way too many artifacts for my liking. Now I have an XBR9 and it's perfect.
post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaddes View Post

Not sure about the Trumotion, but I loved the quality of my picture color-wise with those settings! (minus a little bit of tweaking for the darkness) Thank you

I agree - I am still on the fence with trumotion. What settings did you tweek to brighten? Just curious. I changed the Dynamic Contrast and it helped some. I still notice it being dark.

Thanks.
post #27 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneyouknow View Post

I had an LG 47SL80 but returned it because the motion processor was producing way too many artifacts for my liking. Now I have an XBR9 and it's perfect.

I still can't remember my LG model(too many similar model numbers I guess) - This may be it - I know it is a 47 LED. I looked at the LG and Samsung for the LED - Never had the ability to compare side by side. Is the XBR9 the Sony? I am suspecting it is not LED but I am not familiar either. Overall, I thought the LEDs had more pop to them. Still no regrets. I can live with not having the Soap Opera mode turned on which is causing my eyes to double scan along with the feature.

I did notice some artifacts on ESPN(HD) in standard mode with TM turned off. I usually am about 2 feet away when I inspect. Normal viewing is 12 feet. I don't waste my time looking at non-HD content when tweeking. Interestingly enough my tweeks in the post above with TM didn't show the artifacts. I am not sure of which setting(s) eliminated.

Thanks.
post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmalberto View Post

I still can't remember my LG model(too many similar model numbers I guess) - This may be it - I know it is a 47 LED. I looked at the LG and Samsung for the LED - Never had the ability to compare side by side. Is the XBR9 the Sony? I am suspecting it is not LED but I am not familiar either. Overall, I thought the LEDs had more pop to them. Still no regrets. I can live with not having the Soap Opera mode turned on which is causing my eyes to double scan along with the feature.

LG 47SL80 was LCD 240hz
Sony XBR9 is also LCD 240hz... it's too bad because the XBR8 is LED, why would they go back to LCD from XBR8 to 9? and back to LED from LCD to xbr10?
post #29 of 32
The INFO bar is providing information about the signal that is received from the broadcast or cable service. The network services will send their video information out at 60 Hz. The TV will not change that data. The TV will process the signal to increase the refresh rate to 120Hz automatically. The INFO bar will not display the change to the signal.
post #30 of 32
WOOOOO Finally some one who had the same issue as me! Ive got The 55LM7600 and from day one of owning it i had VERY bad motion blur/Pixleation. Spoke to LG and people where i got tv from and no one could understand it. They sent a guy out to check it out and he was starting to say its what they are like. JUST before he was going to leave he played with picture settings and saw the TruMotion thing and thought lets try that off and what do you know picture is PERFECT. No blurring no nothing just perfect picture. I now have it off permantly and everythings sweet. PS3 TV Xbox all of them sweet now. Have no idea what the purpose of it is but yea just turn it of and youll be fine.
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