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Mac NAS/Storage Options... So Confused!

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
I was a Mac fiend back in the day, (well) before OS X, but I haven't touched them in years. However, I have long lusted after a good HTPC, and after pondering other options, I have settled on buying a Mac Mini for my Panasonic plasma. But I'm stymied on storage solutions, and I'd like some advice.

I am looking to do two or three basic things from the Mac: record/playback TV (just the ten or so channels I get on very, very basic cable, but which include HD) and playback DVD rips. I will also probably watch some online video, although I don't worry too much about the HD streams, and I have little interest in Netflix (which I can watch via the 360) or Blu-Ray. I suppose, if the Mini were capable of it, I might figure out some way to get it to play Blu-Ray rips or other HD files, but it's not essential.

So... to NAS or not to NAS, that is the question. I have looked at all kinds of machines, including the Synology DS209 and the Netgear ReadyNAS Duo, but reviews of even the best NASes are all over the place (reading tech product reviews on NewEgg or Amazon is enough to drive even the heartiest shopper mad). One of the reasons I decided to go for a Mac Mini was because I've waffled for years about building my own, but I was weary of the steep learning curve. I want, as they say, something that "just works." (I also flirted with Dell's Zino HD, but to get a decent configuration you have to add several hundred bucks to the price, and the thread here is full of bugs, problems and other issues. Why not just get a Mac, I asked?)

However, one key issue that I keep coming back to is the PVR functionality. I don't know if NAS can be used effectively with TV recording. I am leaning toward an HD Homerun for this machine, but I assume the Mini would need some local storage for that. (I'm probably going to stick with the base Mac Mini model for internal storage, so 160G or so. I could upgrade, but videos of upgradingdrive seem a little scary to me. And besides, wouldn't I have to clone the smaller drive to the new drive? I have no idea where to start.)

So I'm leaning toward getting one of the OWC Mercury Elite-AL enclosures (the Duo or the Quad... probably the Quad -- I will probably start with a HD in a USB/FW enclosure and upgrade down the line), but I could be convinced to build a NAS box if I can do what I need to with it, and someone could suggest a configuration. I want something easy to use, with low power requirements. In fact, if I could find something that could go to sleep when we're not around (we mostly watch/record TV during prime time, so the computer could be off outside of those times, and presumably scheduled to wake up when we're there), that would be wonderful.

A few other things to keep in mind: We have two other computers in the house, my work laptop and an aging Dell tower, which my wife uses for surfing, and could be replaced with a netbook soon. I don't have a lot of interest in sharing files or doing backups between the machines (although I won't rule those options out). I will probably use some other sort of storage solution for backups of important stuff. I'm just not enough of an expert user to know how to set that stuff up. We only have one decent TV, the Panasonic. There's a smaller one in the bedroom, but it only gets used about two hours a week. It does have a networked, hacked Xbox running XBMC attached, though.

Any suggestions?
post #2 of 27
If streaming to other devices is not critical, then an attached USB or fw drive is the easiest option. And it will work fine. I use a fw drive on my mac mini w a USB HD tuner.
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Would I be able to set up shared folders for other computers to access?
post #4 of 27
yes - file and media sharing between your other computers is no problem;
OWC Mercury Elite is a good choice - I have 2 myself from great advise given me on this forum- they are extremely dependable and very quiet...

ken
post #5 of 27
PTree, I think you've probably already realized what you should do: leave the NAS issue completely alone for the time being, plan to revisit it later and for the time being go with local storage--like bkspero said it's the easiest and best for EyeTV. Get a big local drive set up and running with your Mac mini/PVR system/HD Homerun, and take your time evaluating whether some form of NAS is best for you. Keep researching and give yourself a chance to outgrow local storage first.
post #6 of 27
I am in the same situation as you (kind of...), NAS vs. Local.

Let me just point this out for ya...

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/EZ%20Quest/E61302/

ran across this when I was looking at this as well. I went ahead and bought one of these and 2 drives from newegg. For the price, I couldn't beat it.
post #7 of 27
I had a few of reasons for going NAS:

-Playing with an Ubuntu server with Avahi + Netatalk
-Needed a case to install 10+ hard drives
-Drives located away from entertainment center (noise + WAF)

In the short term you can definitely use some of the fine usb/fw external raid boxes. But, for future expandability and flexibility, you should ponder some of the low cost options for NAS. But that's later down the road, the important thing is getting everything working. Storage can always be migrated to an alternate system.
post #8 of 27
Thread Starter 
Thank you for the tips everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidTension View Post

ran across this when I was looking at this as well. I went ahead and bought one of these and 2 drives from newegg. For the price, I couldn't beat it.

That's a good-looking unit, but it tops out at 2 TB, right? I've been leaning toward one of the Mercury Elite-AL Pro models (the Duo or the Quad). I crunched some numbers, and I could do four TB on the Duo for about $450, or $650 on the Quad. It seems like a no-brainer to go for the Duo, but the Quad, by virtue of having four drives, could do RAID 5 (or RAID 1+0). Do you all think it's worth $200 or so for that capability?
post #9 of 27
I do believe the max was 1.5tb drive in each bay, so around 2.2tb of space (i think i read it on their site perhaps). Plus you're only limited to Raid 0.

It all depends on what files you'll be keeping, and how safe you want to be. If your recorded shows aren't going to be on the hard drive for long, I don't see what Raid 1+0 will do for you. On the other hand, if you plan to back up all the computers on it, you'll want that sort of redundancy.
post #10 of 27
Perhaps I'm just dense, but I don't understand what having a NAS would do for you since the Mini plus a drive basically IS a NAS. The Mini draws very little power while idle and any drive attached to the Mini is available over the network so what exactly would a NAS do for you that the Mini wouldn't do?
post #11 of 27
My solution is Drobo. It has redundancy, will allow for HD recording, is low-maintenance, has firmware that allows for capacity of up to 16TB as HDD sizes increase, and, if you ever want to turn it into an NAS, you can buy a Droboshare at some point in order to make it a standalone NAS.

Cost is about 325-350 for the unit, plus however much you pay for each drive (with the ability to mix and match different HDD sizes).
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTree View Post

I crunched some numbers, and I could do four TB on the Duo for about $450, or $650 on the Quad. It seems like a no-brainer to go for the Duo, but the Quad, by virtue of having four drives, could do RAID 5 (or RAID 1+0). Do you all think it's worth $200 or so for that capability?

For that much, why not just put an atom board into a case full of hard drives and boot Ubuntu off a thumbdrive? For $650 I'd estimate you could fairly easily get yourself 4.5TB of Raid 5 storage (4x1.5TB). As someone mentioned above, Ubuntu RAID+Netatalk=sweet Apple media server + Time Machine volume.
post #13 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scram View Post

For that much, why not just put an atom board into a case full of hard drives and boot Ubuntu off a thumbdrive? For $650 I'd estimate you could fairly easily get yourself 4.5TB of Raid 5 storage (4x1.5TB). As someone mentioned above, Ubuntu RAID+Netatalk=sweet Apple media server + Time Machine volume.

That's not a bad suggestion, although I was leaning toward the $450 solution, not the $650 one. The real question is whether the Mac Mini would be able to use the NAS as a recording hard drive for PVR stuff. I suspect not.

I'm leaning toward a graduated solution, meaning first I'm going to buy a 2 TB hard drive and a simple enclosure off of NewEgg, then I'll buy a second and get the OWC RAID enclosure. After that, I will think about a NAS. This way will make it a little easier on the pocketbook, I think.

NewOrlnsDukie mentioned Drobo, which was the first storage suggestion I looked into, but Amazon and other forums are littered with people talking about compatibility, speed and dependability issues. This is the case with most products, I know, and I suspect a lot of these people are the just the squeaky wheels, but the sheer volume of complaints related to Drobo seemed larger than most products. It was enough to put me off of the idea.
post #14 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by davester2 View Post

Perhaps I'm just dense, but I don't understand what having a NAS would do for you since the Mini plus a drive basically IS a NAS. The Mini draws very little power while idle and any drive attached to the Mini is available over the network so what exactly would a NAS do for you that the Mini wouldn't do?

hmmm. that's an interesting perspective...i think i like it...
post #15 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTree View Post

The real question is whether the Mac Mini would be able to use the NAS as a recording hard drive for PVR stuff. I suspect not.

I can't be completely sure what you mean by "PVR stuff", but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'm doing with my server & mini. I'm using an HDHomeRun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTree View Post

I'm leaning toward a graduated solution, meaning first I'm going to buy a 2 TB hard drive and a simple enclosure off of NewEgg, then I'll buy a second and get the OWC RAID enclosure. After that, I will think about a NAS. This way will make it a little easier on the pocketbook, I think.

I'll admit that's the typical path. But my experience has been "graduation" to RAID happens pretty quickly once 1) the hard drive fails, taking with it the last 3 unwatched episodes of the wife & kids' favorite shows, or 2) between HD recordings, Time Machine backups, and the DVD collection archive, storage space runs short with the Olympics approaching...
post #16 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scram View Post

I can't be completely sure what you mean by "PVR stuff", but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I'm doing with my server & mini. I'm using an HDHomeRun.

Do you record onto the local hard drive and then dump things onto the NAS? Or does the NAS support direct recording? In other words, the Mac doesn't have to use its local disk at all?

If that's the case, welcome to the future, kids. I'm impressed!
post #17 of 27
A RAID should not be thought of as a backup solution. The purpose of a mirrored RAID is to allow the system to continue operating without a hiccup when a failure occurs. The problem with a RAID is that any file problems or errors occurring on one drive will be instantly copied onto the other, the opposite of what you want to have occur in a backup. A RAID is not needed for an HTPC as far as I'm concerned, unless you have very demanding viewers who will not tolerate having their watching interrupted.

It is a much smarter idea to have a separate drive with at the minimum a bootable superduper system backup, replenished on a periodic basis, along with perhaps a time machine backup. In addition, don't forget to in addition have a periodic offsite backup for critical files that must survive in the case of a theft or your house burning down.
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by davester2 View Post

A RAID should not be thought of as a backup solution.

Agree 100%. But I think you're missing the point - the RAID array I'm referring to _is_ the "separate drive" you mention below. It's just larger capacity and more resistant to failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davester2 View Post

A RAID is not needed for an HTPC as far as I'm concerned, unless you have very demanding viewers who will not tolerate having their watching interrupted.

Meet my wife and kids Seriously, though, think about an archived DVD collection. A file gets corrupted, no biggie, I just delete it and re-rip the DVD. But if a non-RAID drive craps out, well, that's days and days of re-ripping... Drives do go bad. In 3 years of running my current media server, I've RMA'd 4 of them. But that's 90 seconds at the terminal to issue the hot swap commands, and I've never had a drive manufacturer refuse an RMA.
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTree View Post

Do you record onto the local hard drive and then dump things onto the NAS? Or does the NAS support direct recording? In other words, the Mac doesn't have to use its local disk at all?

If that's the case, welcome to the future, kids. I'm impressed!

Since my "NAS" is a server running linux, direct recording is of course supported. It's always on. That's the point.
post #20 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scram View Post

Since my "NAS" is a server running linux, direct recording is of course supported. It's always on. That's the point.

Yes, but are you running the recording through the Mac, or controlling them through the Linux system? I'm going for WAF here, so I was going to use Elgato's software to run the HD Homerun recording, because I figure this would have the simplest interface for her to run (and, frankly, for me to figure out, since I'm just starting to learn Linux).

That's why I'm guessing local storage is the better option to NAS, at least for my needs, because the Mac Mini will need to write directly to whatever storage solution I end up using. I suppose it could be configured to record to the Mini's (paltry) interior storage, and then automatically dumped on to the NAS once recording is complete, but that will probably be beyond my current abilities or my wife's interaction interests.

I can't imagine too many things we'd record that we'd want to keep long term. We're just not that heavy of TV users. If something did arise that we didn't want to lose, I guess we'd burn it to disc. (My primary intent is to replace an aging Tivo series 1 with something that can record HD. All the other HTPC stuff is just gravy.)
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by scram View Post

Seriously, though, think about an archived DVD collection. A file gets corrupted, no biggie, I just delete it and re-rip the DVD. But if a non-RAID drive craps out, well, that's days and days of re-ripping... Drives do go bad.

I still don't understand the need for a RAID. This situation can be dealt with by simply booting from your bootable backup. No re-ripping is called for. The backup protects against BOTH drive failures and data corruption, whereas a RAID only protects against drive failure. Also note that if a file gets corrupted on your RAID, there is a good chance that the mirror will corrupt it's mirrored file too. As I said above, the ONLY purpose of a mirrored RAID is to keep things going with no need for intervention or interruption for the user when a drive fails.
post #22 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTree View Post

Yes, but are you running the recording through the Mac, or controlling them through the Linux system? I'm going for WAF here, so I was going to use Elgato's software to run the HD Homerun recording, because I figure this would have the simplest interface for her to run (and, frankly, for me to figure out, since I'm just starting to learn Linux).

That's why I'm guessing local storage is the better option to NAS, at least for my needs, because the Mac Mini will need to write directly to whatever storage solution I end up using. I suppose it could be configured to record to the Mini's (paltry) interior storage, and then automatically dumped on to the NAS once recording is complete, but that will probably be beyond my current abilities or my wife's interaction interests.

I can't imagine too many things we'd record that we'd want to keep long term. We're just not that heavy of TV users. If something did arise that we didn't want to lose, I guess we'd burn it to disc. (My primary intent is to replace an aging Tivo series 1 with something that can record HD. All the other HTPC stuff is just gravy.)

I was in a similar situation, as a ReplayTV user looking to upgrade to HD. However, the one thing I refused to give up was automatic commercial skip. From the Replay episode we learned that any proprietary PVR software that offered automatic commercial skip would get sued out of existence. That ruled out Elgato. Fortunately, there are a number of open source PVR solutions with highly reliable auto-commskip algorithms. Cost: $0.00.

Whatever is tuning the content source and writing it to disk does not need to be local; the mini just needs a nice interface for scheduling and playback.

At its most basic, PVR software boils down to a program listing grid, from which you select shows you want to record, configure a few options, and the software schedules and conducts the recordings. The Replay did this reliably for SD, and WAF was pretty good. Your cable/sat provider's DVR box will do much the same thing, provided you are ok with <20hrs of HD capacity. However, sometimes as a power user I wanted more control over scheduling and playback. I found mythfrontend covered just about everything. My wife has learned to use the advanced scheduling tricks, yet my 5 year old has no problem navigating the interface to watch her shows.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by davester2 View Post

I still don't understand the need for a RAID. This situation can be dealt with by simply booting from your bootable backup.

I think I understand your confusion. There are more types of RAID than just "mirroring" (aka RAID 1). As I mentioned above, I am using RAID 5 (distributed parity). With your straight backup solution, if I want 3TB of storage protected against drive failure, I need to purchase 6TB. With RAID 5, I only need 4TB: 3x1TB drives + 1 parity drive.
post #24 of 27
I'm going to go with Dave in Berzerkely on this one. I'm not following the need for NAS in this case. Not for now, at any rate.

I drove myself nuts with the NAS options initially, including the much talked about but somewhat unreliable Drobo. The dlink, netgear, buffalo, time capsule, etc.. oi.

Ultimately I connected a 2TB WD Caviar Green HDD to my mini with firewire in an inexpensive external-drive enclose and it's beautiful. Every Sunday I do a back up of my 2TB onto an identical 2TB WD HDD. I got both drives on Newegg for $169 a piece (not bad).
post #25 of 27
I'm having this same dilemma. I'm about to replace my G5 with a Mini. For now it would function as the family computer in the kitchen which means it would get Netflix and Hulu duty as well and because of the low power consumption I'd also like it to house all of the shared media as well. I have a couple of computers and a PS3 set up to receive streams from an internal drive in the G5 now via Gigabit Ethernet. I'm not sure if I should add a few separate USB drives to keep separate libraries for photos, videos, itunes and time machine or if i'd be better off with one large drive. (I have a couple of the 1TB fantom green drives that I think could be part of the distributed set-up.) Also, I assume USB is fine for photos, music and itunes but I'm concerned that it would not be fast enough for the videos if multiple streams are going. Eventually, I'd like to move this setup to a dedicated server role adding PVR functionality and would hope to be able add to but not replace too much storage.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

Brad
post #26 of 27
My setup, with everything stored on a Drobo2 with 2x 2TB drives, connected via fw800 to a 27" iMac (which is also the LR HTPC and household data server):

HTPC in LR (27" iMac) running Plex and pyTivoX/Streambaby (?) onto HDTV

TiVoHD for Cable and guests (eg. so the babysitter can watch movies stored on the Drobo directly via TiVo)

24" iMac in MBR taking video from Plex
Tube TV in MBR w/ TiVo

Now, if I were to start over (or start ripping BDs) I'd take a reaaaaally hard look at lime-technology (google) and their 12-15 HDD unRAID Servers for a massive NAS.

That being said, I have not had any problems with my Drobo, it's just the geek in me that wants a big ole NAS server to mess around with

I haven't had any streaming hiccups, but I also don't watch much downloaded/ripped 1080P stuff, so YMMV.

Hope this helps!
post #27 of 27
I was in a similar situation. I have a Mac Mini as a home theater PC and it doubles as a server for my home network (5 computers and printers etc.). I went with the Drobo although I too was scared by the complaints on Amazon and elsewhere. But after reading numerous tech reviews I bit the bullet and took the plunge and I have not had any problems in the past 2 years. I recently got a second Drobo to mirror the first (yes that is a lot of redundancy but after losing some family vacation photos from a Dell hard drive failure years back I am convinced you can't have too many backups)!

But one observation is that you seem sophisticated enough to build your own RAID box and fiddle with Linux. My understanding is that you can build something just as good as the Drobo for less cost.
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