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Jet Family Theater build is about to begin - Page 2

post #31 of 589
I had the same feedback as Gelfling from my local on fireblocking. What was ironic is that they wanted me to make sure I firestopped (with Greatstuff) any penetrations through the newly built wall top plates (in the basement), but didn't need anything at all at the top gap between where the wall meets the foundation block (the wall is 1/2" plus away from the block). How does that makes sense

If a fire were to start in the wall it would just feed up the unfinished cavity between studs walll and block wall and then up into joist bay(s) above. What good does plugging a wire hole in the top plate do?

I did ensure that there weren't any unplugged holes going through first floor subfloor though.
post #32 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWalkinator View Post

Help needed, in order to meet fireblocking code for soffit, I have to do something like this in the picture, 1/2" sheetrock attached to the joist as fire barrier. As you can see, there is not much clearance behind the duct work (about 8" from duct to foundation wall, minus 4.5" of framed wall and air gap, only leave me 3.5"), so how do I anchor the DC04 clips in this situation?

I think I got it, here is the workaround:

I first attach the clip's flat plate on 2x4's 2 side with wood screws, then attach 2x4" to the ceiling joists. Then I build the wall and drill holes through the top plate, then use long screws and nuts to secure the anchor, now the question is, how big is the whole on the center of the the clip anchor and if I can find the something like 3 1/2" long screw with nuts, then I think it is doable, just need to make sure I measure it carefully so the wholes are lined up.

Would this work?
post #33 of 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelfling View Post

I think you might be wrong about the fireblock. I had this same question and actually got the building inspector to come out to specifically answer this question. The answer I got was that the drywall in your pic is not necessary. The plywood (or OSB) of the floor above the basement IS the fireblock, so you don't need the drywall. As always, please consult your local code dept as codes vary.



When in doubt, do what you are told to do in order to pass inspection.

Beyond that, the inspector was completely wrong. R602.8 #2, fireblocking shall be provided at all interconnections between concealed vertical (wall) and horizontal (ceiling) spaces, such as occur at soffits..

What about drywalling above duct as you indicated, then framing the soffit, then framing the wall under the soffit? Would be easier, just not sure how it would fit into your isolation scheme.
post #34 of 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

I had the same feedback as Gelfling from my local on fireblocking. What was ironic is that they wanted me to make sure I firestopped (with Greatstuff) any penetrations through the newly built wall top plates (in the basement), but didn't need anything at all at the top gap between where the wall meets the foundation block (the wall is 1/2" plus away from the block). How does that makes sense

If a fire were to start in the wall it would just feed up the unfinished cavity between studs walll and block wall and then up into joist bay(s) above. What good does plugging a wire hole in the top plate do?

I did ensure that there weren't any unplugged holes going through first floor subfloor though.

As the top plate is a fireblock, you have to maintain the integrity of the fireblock by sealing around any penetrations (R602.8.1.2). So they are correct there.

You have the other part of the puzzle, you must fireblock between the concealed space behind the wall and the ceiling space (see the section I quoted in the above post). This can be done with unfaced fiberglass insulation in the top 16", or wood or drywall.

(btw I am going by the international residential code, which is typical)
post #35 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

You can see where the doubled 2x9's sit on the steel beam in the far end of that picture (that's just one end). The question I would have is how far is the OTHER support beam is away from the 2x4 wall where it ends, or what is total span of the 2x9's?

I would consider an interior wall which has framing or roof trusses running over it (especially running perpendicular) as suspect "load bearing". This is similar to that scenario in my mind, especially given that it appears that there's at least one floor and maybe two above bearing down on those 2x9's. You also have a double 2x9 header running perpendicular at the top of the stairway exit. The load that's supporting load is shared with the other 2x9's, and is transmitting some portion of that aggregate through that "little 2x4 wall".

If it were me, I'd get someone in there who can give you a better idea on what you can and can't do before you start cutting out that wall

It is around 6' from the foundation wall, total span is about 16', the plan is to remove the first 3 studs which is about 3' so, it will be 7' wall left and 9' total openings.
post #36 of 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWalkinator View Post

It is around 6' from the foundation wall, total span is about 16', the plan is to remove the first 3 studs which is about 3' so, it will be 7' wall left and 9' total openings.

Walkinator...my question on the span was more rhetorical than anything else..I'm not a structural engineer.

My point was that a few pictures posted on this forum does little to give you the whole picture in terms of feedback on your direct question. I'm just hoping that you don't get yourself into a mess by just cutting your studs out without knowing what the ramifications will be.

My gut feel is that wall is not a integral load bearing component of your house above (which isn't going to implode your house into the basement) but it may bear enough load that when compromised could crack your corner bead etc. above which would make you rue the day you ever touched it.

Does that make sense?
post #37 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Walkinator...my question on the span was more rhetorical than anything else..I'm not a structural engineer.

My point was that a few pictures posted on this forum does little to give you the whole picture in terms of feedback on your direct question. I'm just hoping that you don't get yourself into a mess by just cutting your studs out without knowing what the ramifications will be.

My gut feel is that wall is not a integral load bearing component of your house above (which isn't going to implode your house into the basement) but it may bear enough load that when compromised could crack your corner bead etc. above which would make you rue the day you ever touched it.

Does that make sense?

Floyd, understand your point fully, this is what I am not sure and why I am seeking advices here. I see pretty much everyone in my neighborhood did the same thing, but I still want to make sure it is safe to remove 3 studs. Well, I am still busy doing fireblocking so I will leave it until drywall time. Your point is much appreciated.
post #38 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post


When in doubt, do what you are told to do in order to pass inspection.

Beyond that, the inspector was completely wrong. R602.8 #2, fireblocking shall be provided at all interconnections between concealed vertical (wall) and horizontal (ceiling) spaces, such as occur at soffits..

What about drywalling above duct as you indicated, then framing the soffit, then framing the wall under the soffit? Would be easier, just not sure how it would fit into your isolation scheme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post
As the top plate is a fireblock, you have to maintain the integrity of the fireblock by sealing around any penetrations (R602.8.1.2). So they are correct there.

You have the other part of the puzzle, you must fireblock between the concealed space behind the wall and the ceiling space (see the section I quoted in the above post). This can be done with unfaced fiberglass insulation in the top 16", or wood or drywall.

(btw I am going by the international residential code, which is typical)
Yes, my township has a little manual for finishing basement in that I read the similar requirements. Here is the plan I submitted to get permit and got approved:


As you can see, the vertical space is blocked by drywall and top plate of the wall so fire won't be able to travel to horizontally into the joist cavity, and in the picture, the duct soffit is also sealed and separated from the joist cavity above and wall air gap between the foundation wall and framed wall.

Originally, I was about to do as planed, however, it is too difficult to do that way, so instead one small piece of drywall between sill plate on top of the foundation wall and top plate of the framed wall, and a large piece of drywall in the soffit, I just put a big piece of drywall and then attach the top plate of the framed wall to the joist through the drywall. As far as codes concern, I think it will achieve the same fireblocking goal. Actually, the building manual in another county in PA has a diagram showing exactly the same way as I did.

 

BasementDetail.pdf 339.7568359375k . file
post #39 of 589
Thread Starter 
Just got back from my local code office:

1. My alternative way of doing fireblocking on soffit is acceptable,
2. Using DC04 clips for soundproofing is also approved as long as "is installed per manufactures instructions".

So next is to order some DC04 clips, need figure out how many, I would say 25 ~ 30 at 36" spacing for 14x20' room, there are two doors (one entrance, one for equipment cabinet under stair) and two posts, 36" soffits on each side of the long walls (running through in and out the theater room).

I have few questions that I need some advices:

1. What is the typical spacing do you choose? 48" is maximum, is the larger the spacing, the better soundproofing? If you do DD+GG, the wall will become heavier, do you need to space the clips shorter distance?

2. How do you fasten the clips to the steel I-Beam?

3. Do you also de-couple soffit to the ceiling? Assume one end of the soffit (L shap) is attached to the de-coupled wall, if you attached the other end to the ceiling without using DC04, then what good it does since sound can travel from wall through soffit to the ceiling, am I right? I saw folks here also did DD+GG on soffit, but I am thinking of doing fabric under the soffit bottom, bad idea?

Ted, where are you?
post #40 of 589
Thread Starter 
Fotto, I saw your replied my questions and now it is gone, weird?
post #41 of 589
Thread Starter 
Well, finally got this section of HVAC work + fireblocking done, here are some pictures:

Re-route one supply pipe to the upstair, other wise, I have to frame a bump out,


I took out this pipe, moved to next cavity close to the wall, temporarily sealed, will be used for supply to the bigger room in the basement later.


Cut the new hole for takeoff, this tool doesn't do:

This one does:

Hole cut and takeoff collar fitted to the end cap of main trunk

Takeoff re-routed:

After

I also run the bathroom vent duct, the 4" flex pipe you see in the picture.
post #42 of 589
Sorry about that...I was thinking you were asking about RSIC clip spacing for hat channel on ceiling but after reading again believe it was for the DC04's for the wall top plate, so I just deleted it instead of carrying on and not having it apply. I don't recall guidelines for the spacing of the DC04's but I believe I put one up every 3-4 feet for the walls.

Regarding your soffit though, yes it is recommended to decouple that from your ceiling joists. Some people use DC04 clips and others use the RSIC clip and hat channel. Used the latter and just screwed the upper 2x2 I used into the track. I attached a clip every other joist (32") but depends on your soffit weight as to whether you go every joist.

I used 5/8" OSB for first layer of the soffit, then outer layer with 5/8" drywall, and GG in between. I did a double layer due to that I wanted to isolate my HVAC trunk as much as possible, looks like you have similar situation.
post #43 of 589
Thread Starter 
Looking up at the ceiling joist, those are two return air slots on ceiling for upstair at the far end of room right above I-Beam, builder just closed the cavity.
This one is in a standard width joist cavity, so I can run a flex duct through:


The following two are in 5" cavity, no way I can run flex duct, I might be able to squeeze 4" flex, but that would restrict air flow, so I still have to use the cavity, just need some insulation.

This one is in the middle of the theater room, tow return slots for dinning room and second floor guest bed room, cavity is too small to run flex:


From another angle:



post #44 of 589
Ahhh...sheetmetal/duct work. What a fond memory that is
post #45 of 589
Thread Starter 
OK, took sections of return duct down for fireblocking:

Attached 1/2 sheet rock as firestop material:

Also, run two 6" flex ducts, one for living room upstair, one for another section of the basement outside the theater room, also, replaced one supply pipe with 8" flex duct for the dinning room right above the theater room. Close two small cavities with 2" rigid board and sealed with duct tape, I may also cover it with a sheet of metal or I can just leave it as is.



Done, all sections of the return duct wrapped with Reflectix bobble foil wrapper hopefully to provide some sound isolation and all back up hanged.

At the end of the return trunk, added collar for return vent in theater room.


Question, how many supplies and returns do you usually put in your theater room, on what locations? mine is 14x20", 2 supplies or 2 returns? I know the code mandate that hot air supply has to be at the lower portion of the wall, cannot be on ceiling.
post #46 of 589
Thread Starter 
I hate the builder, this is the main gas pipe, run off the wall about 3 feet, and is in the middle of stair end and foundation wall, I don't want to loose headroom right at the end of stair well to frame a fur down box for it, so it has to be moved close to the wall later, another obstacle I have to deal with.

Left is the stair well, another angle, toward electric panel:
post #47 of 589
Thread Starter 
This is a 7" hot air supply pipe to the living room, can I put a tee to branch off for this part of basement?
post #48 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Ahhh...sheetmetal/duct work. What a fond memory that is

I followed your thread and saw what you did with your duct work, until you do it youself, you don't know what a piece of royal PITA it is! It took me two weekends, plus few hours every evening when I got home, wife was complaining the noises I made but she did helped me to raise up the trunk for me to hang.
post #49 of 589


You really used the big gun. Just a FYI for others following your lead. A $1 metal cutting blade in a jig saw will also make the cut and you can hold the saw in one hand. This is useful when you are standing on a ladder trying to cut a round/square hole in a trunk line. Noisy as hell though.
post #50 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

You really used the big gun. Just a FYI for others following your lead. A $1 metal cutting blade in a jig saw will also make the cut and you can hold the saw in one hand. This is useful when you are standing on a ladder trying to cut a round/square hole in a trunk line. Noisy as hell though.

Wow, I am really honored that this is the first time BIG commented on my thread.

I do own a jig saw and I also have some metal blades, however, the mechanism to clip and hold the blade failed You are exactly right, nosiy as hell.

The other cheap MultiMaster knock out tool on the other hand, is great for cutting drywall holes.
post #51 of 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWalkinator View Post

Wow, I am really horned that this is the first time BIG commented on my thread.


Gotta spread my love around. So many builds going on. Looking forward to watching your progress.
post #52 of 589
Thread Starter 
Since framing has not started yet, I can still play around with the location of equipment cabinet location. There are possible 4 locations:


Opt1
pro, not taking up any other spaces
con, no a lot of space under stair, cannot fit a taller rack, difficult to do all the wiring and cable management there.

Opt2
pro:larger and taller rack can fit in
con:taking up extra space that I could place my treadmill there

Opt3
pro, larger and taller rack can fit in, possibly for double entrance doors for better sound isolation
con, taking up space for my kid playing room, shortening it about 3"

Opt4
pro, larger and taller rack can fit in, no taking up extra spaces in finished area of the basement
con, squeeze the washer and dryer space

As you can see, I made a stupid and expensive mistake when deciding where the egress cut should be. Had I cut it next to the electric service panel, not only I would have gained 3' in the theater room, but I would have also space for equipment cabinet!

Opt1 is my original plan and I am still trying to see if I can make it work and live with it. Opt4 is my second choice, well, for opt1 and 2, I just play around to see the how they play out in the basement layout.
post #53 of 589
Thread Starter 
I have 28 degree framing nailer gun and I bought a case of 10 gauge 3 1/4" framing nails, I read some where that framing 2x4 wall requires 16d nails which is 3 1/2" long, so should I return the 3 1/4" nails and go get 3 1/2" nails instead?
post #54 of 589
I used 3 1/4 on my walls, they're not going anywhere. Use galvanized nails on your bottom plates if you're using pressure treated lumber. The chemicals in the treated wood will eat away at the non galvanized nails, within a relatively short period from what I've read.
post #55 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

I used 3 1/4 on my walls, they're not going anywhere. Use galvanized nails on your bottom plates if you're using pressure treated lumber. The chemicals in the treated wood will eat away at the non galvanized nails, within a relatively short period from what I've read.

Thanks fotto.
For the pressure treated bottom plate, I bought 2 1/2" galvanized nails together with Ramset .22 caliber actuated gun, the HD guy said 2 1/2" is enough to fasten 2x4 PT to the concrete, but I somehow I feel I need 3" ones, this is what I got: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053

I have another dilemma, I will need to frame two walls that are parallel to the joist along the foundation wall, I know I need to add nailer blocks or braces between rim joist and the first joist, the problem is, how do I fasten nailer blocks to the rim joist or to the sill plate on top of the foundation wall? Just not much clearance to wiggle neither with drill, nailer gun or hammer or hand screw driver.
post #56 of 589
Thread Starter 
Friend told me his cousin's place carry a sound dampening product called 440 Soundbarrier manufactured by Homesote, here is the manufacture's product link: http://www.homasote.com/products/440-Soundbarrier.aspx

It claims the 1/2" board to be able to achieve STC 51 rating for simple wall assembly and 54 for floor and ceiling assembly. Wonder if anyone has real experiences with this product and how is to compare to DD+GG which claims to be able achieve 55 STC, but depends on types of wall assembly, 440 board can go as high as 66 STC with decoupled double wall and 440 board on on both side: http://www.homasote.com/Catalogs/200...Assemblies.pdf.

If it is as it claimes, could it be the DD+GG alternative? From the surface, it seems much easier to install and is probably more cost effective.
post #57 of 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWalkinator View Post

Thanks fotto.
For the pressure treated bottom plate, I bought 2 1/2" galvanized nails together with Ramset .22 caliber actuated gun, the HD guy said 2 1/2" is enough to fasten 2x4 PT to the concrete, but I somehow I feel I need 3" ones, this is what I got: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053

I have another dilemma, I will need to frame two walls that are parallel to the joist along the foundation wall, I know I need to add nailer blocks or braces between rim joist and the first joist, the problem is, how do I fasten nailer blocks to the rim joist or to the sill plate on top of the foundation wall? Just not much clearance to wiggle neither with drill, nailer gun or hammer or hand screw driver.

Don't forget to use galvanized as well when nailing your studs to the bottom plates (in addition to the bottom plate to concrete).

Don't have a great suggestion on your nailers at the wall/rim joist. If you can't angle your gun to toenail the nailer into the sill plate, you might consider renting one of those palm nailers similar to this:
http://professional-power-tool-guide...nailer-review/

I've never used one but seems like it would let you get into that tight space better.
post #58 of 589
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotto View Post

Don't forget to use galvanized as well when nailing your studs to the bottom plates (in addition to the bottom plate to concrete).

Don't have a great suggestion on your nailers at the wall/rim joist. If you can't angle your gun to toenail the nailer into the sill plate, you might consider renting one of those palm nailers similar to this:
http://professional-power-tool-guide...nailer-review/

I've never used one but seems like it would let you get into that tight space better.

I managed to get the blockings installed.

Good point on using the galvanized nails for nailing studs to the bottom plate. Now where can I find such nails for my nailer gun?
post #59 of 589
Thread Starter 
I just checked, the two boxes of nails I bought are galvanized 3 1/2" nails, so I am good.

Now my PC dies on me, just BIOS just won't post, I shut it down last night normally and this morning, turn on the machine, don't see anything on the screen, checked all connections, checked CMOS battery, checked memory, took out CPU and re-installed, absolutely nothing worked, it just won't boot! Maybe it is time to upgrade the system, I built it like 6 years ago, with AMD Athlon 64x2 3800+ processor and overclocked it, back then it was a very fast machine. And I just upgrade from XP to Windows 7!
post #60 of 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by theWalkinator View Post

Since framing has not started yet, I can still play around with the location of equipment cabinet location. There are possible 4 locations:


Opt1
pro, not taking up any other spaces
con, no a lot of space under stair, cannot fit a taller rack, difficult to do all the wiring and cable management there.

Opt2
pro:larger and taller rack can fit in
con:taking up extra space that I could place my treadmill there

Opt3
pro, larger and taller rack can fit in, possibly for double entrance doors for better sound isolation
con, taking up space for my kid playing room, shortening it about 3"

Opt4
pro, larger and taller rack can fit in, no taking up extra spaces in finished area of the basement
con, squeeze the washer and dryer space

As you can see, I made a stupid and expensive mistake when deciding where the egress cut should be. Had I cut it next to the electric service panel, not only I would have gained 3' in the theater room, but I would have also space for equipment cabinet!

Opt1 is my original plan and I am still trying to see if I can make it work and live with it. Opt4 is my second choice, well, for opt1 and 2, I just play around to see the how they play out in the basement layout.

Option 2 would be my choice as it'll make wiring/service easiest. Also allows for the understair cavity to be used as a DIY subwoofer enclosure instead!
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