18-150Hz vs. 28-120Hz?

Put your "Instant Gratification" on hold, order the eD A2-300 and wait!!

Your curtain may fool you, but it won't matter to a subwoofer ... it will see theTOTAL volume of your open basement, as that's what it has to pressurize.

You will need the biggest and best sub that you can get.

Bill C

With certain movie soundtracks, there will be a significant advantage to having a subwoofer that extends to 18hz instead of 28hz. However, that subwoofer is not the Def Tech Prosub 1000. Most of Def Tech's subwoofers have very "optimistic" extension specs, and I'd doubt the Prosub 1000 has much output below 30-35hz - certainly nothing to speak of at 18hz. I would guess that its true bass extension is very similar to the Klipsch.

As BillCinLR said, though, you have a large space to fill (the curtain doesn't make the room any smaller in terms of how much bass the sub needs to produce) and the ID subs you listed will be better than both the Klipsch and the Def Tech. I'd recommend calling eD and getting a shipping estimate, because the A2-300 really is superior to the other subs you're looking at - especially for HT. It will get you REAL 18hz extension and should best the others in overall output as well.

If you have to decide between BustBuy subs, get the one with the lower extension, to 18Hz. This is much better suited for HT use.

But, you would be better served to get more bang for your buck with the eD option.

I agree, but it's hard to say whether the Def Tech sub (which is "listed" at 18hz *cough* bogus *cough*) or Klipsch sub actually digs deeper. If the specs were reliable or comparable, the Def Tech would be the obvious choice. As it is, it's tough to know.

I'm confused I thought the human ear can only hear from 20Hz up to 20,000Hz. Is that a myth? And even at that frequency wouldn't it be difficult to distinguish? At 18Hz you would just soil your pants!

DefTech is the worst when it comes to bogus specs. Never believe their numbers.

msvara,

A quick look at the first "sticky" on this forum, will SHOW you that there is plenty of LFE below 20 Hz in recent DVDs and Blurays. A good subwoofer will let you FEEL the LFE, regardless of your hearing ability.

Bill C

I doubt they're the worst offender in the business regarding measurements.

Could it be that their numbers are published based on their testing environment, which may be more ideal than the typical home?

Meaning they can achieve their stated results in their labs, which substantiates their claims of performance.

Whether or not the same can be achieved in a house setting is obviously debatable.

But hardly justification to cry foul on them.

Maybe they should just add the disclaimer "Lab test results show:" and then the numbers.

I would simply go and listen to the subs of choice with some of your favorite cd's and decide which gives you the most pleasure.

For the ID subs you can't audition, you'll have to rely on other owners that you trust for their opinions.

Good luck.

That's awesome. Next time I'm constipated I'll watch ghost rider really loud


No seriously I didn't know thanks.

Maybe not the "worst," but they're certainly notorious for extremely optimistic specs. I suppose the worst offenders are the $200 "1,000 Watt" HTIB systems, which are likely incapable of achieving even a quarter of their listed power output.


See, this is the problem. Specs should NOT reflect ANY sort of "environment," but an indication of the product's performance. Ideally, they should be conducted in anechoic or quasi-anechoic conditions. These types of specs can be legitimately compared with specs of other products and can actually be useful. As it is, Def Tech's specs are so exaggerated that my only guess is that the subs are measured in a sealed closet. To be honest, I don't mind a manufacturer listing a second set of specs which give better estimates as to the expected performance in a typical home setting (for example, SVS claims that their subs often get 2-5hz deeper extension in-room), but Def Tech's specs often exaggerate a good deal beyond this.


Possibly, but again, in what setting - a closet? Aside from the question of the setting in which the measurements are taken, there's also the issue of Def Tech not following conventional guidelines. Most speakers are measured within a window of +/- 3dB, which gives at least some indication that the speaker will demonstrate some sort of uniformity in that frequency range.

Def Tech gives a frequency range with NO +/- specification. So while the sub is listed as having 18hz extension, this may be at 40dB down (clearly unusable) compared to its output at 50hz. And it may be 40dB down IN A CLOSET. A frequency range spec with A) no hint as to the environment it was taken in, and B) no +/- component means virtually nothing. A 3" satellite speaker can technically be listed as having 18hz extension under these guidelines. Sure, it might only be putting out 20dB of output (imperceptible), but it can do it!


...which makes the specs pretty useless IMO. It's like a car manufacturer claiming their car can do 0-60 in 3 seconds, but leaving out the fact that testing was done on a 25 degree downhill slope . It might get people excited at first, but it'll become pretty obvious very quickly that some numbers have been fudged, or at least arrived at in a questionable manner.

When excuses have to be made to explain a bunch of non-standardized specs that conveniently cannot be compared to the specs of competitors, it should trigger a BS alarm. Let's take a look at the Spercube III. Here we have a 10" cube weighing 25lbs that is claimed to perform down to 16hz. Pul-eeze!!! Is anybody really buying into that? I can wave my hand back and forth at 5 cycles /second, but I'm not claiming that my hand can produce a 5hz tone.

Further, I'm calling many of their amp specs BS. Take a look at the Trinity which is rated at 2000 watts. It has an 8 amp fuse. 8 amps x 125 volts = 1000 watts assuming 100% efficiency. Where do they come up with 2000 watts? Meanwhile, the same 8 amp fuse is used in the SC Reference (1800w), SC I (1500w), SC II (1250w), and SC III (650w). Why should I believe the amp specs?

These are not specs that come from tests in labs. These are numbers made up in the PR department.

No, that is true about the hearing limits. Some maybe not even that low.
But, for HT, a lot of content contains freqs below audible that just shake the room. This adds realism to the effects and give you that tactile bonus.
If you reference the movies with bass sticky thread with waterfalls you will see that content often extends down to the single digits. Some choose to not to try to reproduce this content because it is difficult for most subs to do. However, when/if you can it makes you grin from ear to ear.

SVS pb12nsd or ed a3-300 or a2-300 some HSU, pretty much any internet direct sub will provide bass that will own the hell out of that overpriced POS from best buy

Man, if you are used to that, a 'real' subwoofer will blow you away.

One piece of advice, get the biggest baddest sub you can afford. Quality bass is addictive and once you experience it you will never go back. Save the money on upgrade-itis and get the best you can the first time.

Too bad you didn't come here first - you might have been convinced to get a lesser receiver and a better subwoofer than you can now afford for an overall improved HT experience

That said, go to SVS, Outlaw, eD and Hsu sites (Epik is probably beyond your budget) and select the system on sale that represents the most money you can spend - whatever it is you will be happy (and will crush your Sony and blow away the Klipsch and DefTech).

This just reminds me of the Bag End Infra Sub-18, which claims response to 8 Hz. In a genuine test, the Bag End actually did do 8 Hz, but at maybe 70 db. More than 40 db below the threshold of audibilty.

I suspect that some of the same thing is going on with Def Tech and others.

A pair of earbuds can go to 5Hz, but they aren't going to rock your room.

What about an AV123 MFW-15

I consider it to be sleazy business practice when a company with the stature of Def Tech plays so loose with the specs they throw around. While seasoned buyers are not likely to fall for the BS, it's easy to picture a certain percentage of less experienced buyers that might choose a Def tech product over one of their equally worthy competitors simply because Def Tech is deceptively posting up imaginary attractive numbers. I feel this practice reflects poorly on their sense of ethics.

Very true.

This has been the subject of many threads/posts over the years. It is definitely shameful.

Although the OP seems convinced o fthe value of extension, just a little added input. First, even assuming that human hearing abruptly cuts off at 20 Hz, the difference between 20 and 28 Hz is about 2/3 of an octive, if I'm thinking straight. So at the other end of the spectrum, it would be like comparing a tweeter that only reaches 12,000 Hz versus one that reaches 20,000 Hz (roughly [I think]).

And while it may be difficult to determine pitch at those low notes, We're not talking about the sub with 28 Hz extension playing a 28 Hz note instead of a 20 Hz note. We're talking about the 20 Hz note being effectively gone. Plus you really get the pitch info (for actual notes) from the higher harmonics. So while extension to 20 Hz may not be critical for music, it is good if you can have it. Frankky, the deeper extension is fun for music as well as for music.

And for movies, well, as you've heard, there seems to be an increasing trend to leave "subsonics" in place on Blu-ray and DVD releases. So if you can get it, why not. (this from a guy who only gets to about 25 Hz flat in-room and haunts the sub threads because he's obsessing over deeper extension (and reduced THD, but that's a story for another day, or at least another thread).

There is no question that with many movies, especially those laden with special effects, a difference can be heard and felt between a sub that rolls off below 28hz vs one that does so at 18hz. I however, have my doubts that the Pro-sub 1000 is actually capable of useful output down to 18hz. I doubt it actually plays any deeper than the Klipsch.

I found this review of the Def Tech 1000. Frequency response was 3db down at 39 Hz and 6 db down at 34 Hz.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/compac...ef/index2.html

Good find. Def Tech should be very embarrassed. It's like selling a 12 oz can of beer with only 8 oz in it.

Yeah, but was their test done in a closet environment like DefTechs?



I don't disagree that marketing depts skew facts and figures to the obvious benefit of the company, but unfortunately there is no level playing field in the sub market to which every manufacturer will adhere.

Some speak the truth, some bend it to the breaking point.

Ultimately, it's us consumers that have to decide what sounds best and spend our hard-earned money.

I agree with the other members, don't rely solely on marketing numbers to make your purchase, but combine it with real auditions.

You're looking for a good sub in the $400 range, you may have to up the ante just a little based on the suggestions of others.

Cheers.

Lol, the Prosub 1000's specs are overstating its extension capabilities by more than an octave! Well, at least compared to industry standard of +/- 3dB measurements.

It also looks like my guess of being 40dB down at 18hz might be pretty close. If anything, it's 50dB down at 18hz . Sad, indeed. I doubt it can muster decent output at 18hz even in a closet like I guessed before.

You know, it's possible they ran an 18hz test tone, "heard something" (probably about 400% THD), and claimed it could handle 18hz...

I thought speaker companies build a prototype in a lab then run it through an occiliscope (SP) and SPL meter to see what it can do. But that's the prototype. Do you think they test each sub coming off the line other than a simple turn on test tone turn off QA?

I highly doubt that most speaker companies take the time to test each sub in detail. I would hope most of them at least do a quality control inspection.