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high-end CD player .. worth it? - Page 8

post #211 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

I, for one, certainly can - level matching doesn't affect the harsh metallic-sounding strings as reproduced by many CD players that isn't produced by others.


Yes, it can!
post #212 of 266
After being gone for about a year now and briefly checking in I see that some things never change and I have not missed a thing. I have spent a lot of time on the Can Am Spyder forums since my wife was kind enough to let me buy one and everyone on those forum's were helpful nice and respectful. There are however a number of posters here who for whatever reason believe they are above everyone else and are simply rude and abusive. I would simply suggest that the moderators take more control and reign in the abusive posters. It's why I left before and have no plans to come back again. While I am sure no cares about me I do wonder how many others get run off because for what little you gain it's not worth it to put up with such a mean spirited bunch of clowns.
post #213 of 266
Yes, calling people "clowns" is an excellent example of the type of respectful comportment we all should be striving for around here!
post #214 of 266
You're also comparing an "owners" type of forum to this one, which isn't a fair comparison. Look at a typical owners subforum here on AVS and you won't see nearly as much bickering. If you were on a general motorcycle forum and Can Am owners were mixed with Harley/Triumph/Ducati owners, I bet you would find plenty of hostility.
post #215 of 266
^^^

but we missed him so much while he was gone...

guess he's still not fond of the scientific method...
post #216 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

If you were on a general motorcycle forum and Can Am owners were mixed with Harley/Triumph/Ducati owners, I bet you would find plenty of hostility.

Or if he started claiming that new spark plug wires gave him a 50 HP increase.
post #217 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Or if he started claiming that new spark plug wires gave him a 50 HP increase.

Everybody knows the best way to add more HP is to add more chrome parts
post #218 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Or if he started claiming that new spark plug wires gave him a 50 HP increase.

Lol. That's about as good as your response to people that wonder how they can tell if their Audio Quest cables are counterfeit.
post #219 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post

Or if he started claiming that new spark plug wires gave him a 50 HP increase.

dear me... having spent more than my share of time on car boards, those claims have been made (and just as stridently defended as, ummm, questionable claims are here )...

Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

Everybody knows the best way to add more HP is to add more chrome parts

flames baby, flames... painted on both sides, they are good for at LEAST 25hp at the wheels...
post #220 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

dear me... having spent more than my share of time on car boards, those claims have been made (and just as stridently defended as, ummm, questionable claims are here )...

I know, and it usualy gets hostile as well.
post #221 of 266
And I guess that's all he has to say about that.
post #222 of 266
looking for a music dedicated cd player that will also play files from my network. budget upto 1000 dollars. any suggestions?
post #223 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

...


flames baby, flames... painted on both sides, they are good for at LEAST 25hp at the wheels...

What if you only paint it on one side? Is that a 12.5 hp increase only?
post #224 of 266
I've bought a Grado SR325is headphone for a girl as Christmas present.

Could someone recommend a CD player with good headphone output and volume control for this Grado?

The highest price about 500 US$.
post #225 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle-sas View Post

I've bought a Grado SR325is headphone for a girl as Christmas present.

Could someone recommend a CD player with good headphone output and volume control for this Grado?

The highest price about 500 US$.

Doesn't she already have iPhone?
post #226 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

Doesn't she already have iPhone?

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

No, she doesn't.

I have purchased her the Grado and a NuForce u-DAC 2 Violet.

But what could I buy her as St Valentine's Day present? She loves listening pop/rock music.

I thought either a CD-player or a music streamer - both with good headphone output, volume control and a remote.

And the principal question is: It be alike pretty as the u-DAC 2 Violet Edition.

Bad job, isn't it?
post #227 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

this is the best parody of audiophile idiocy i've ever read! Thanks for the laugh, man!

+1
post #228 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

this is the best parody of audiophile idiocy i've ever read! Thanks for the laugh, man!

-1
post #229 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle-sas View Post


No, she doesn't.

Then get her one. Problem solved.
post #230 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I'm not seeing an argument about that at all?

CD players can sound different, obviously due to the DACs/filters/analog output stages. Not really much to debate except what sounds better or whether it's worth the $.

I'm missing something here. A CD is a digital medium. If a CD player sends a digital signal to a receiver that then, at the last stage, converts the digital signal to an analog signal, why would a CD player need DACs? It seems like the DACs would be in the receiver.

Floyd
post #231 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

A great CD player is essential for a great system. What most of the inexperienced people posting here don't seem to comprehend is that only if the sound comes out of the SOURCE component with low distortion and high accuracy can it be that way at the end.
I have been an audiophile for 30 years and have built up an awesome system; I know what makes a difference. I have spent thousands of hours listening critically to various components and how they sound with different kinds of music, and my ears tell me which components make the cut. My system would make most people's jaw drop; the low overall distortion actually gets you very very close to the sound of a live performance (even at concert sound levels). MOst people simply do not appreciate what IS possible with the right stuff.
Another thing that people do not understand is the importance of a quality amplifier. Most amplifiers priced under $1000 have GROSS amounts of distortion when playing actual MUSIC (despite the silly published specs using a test tone). NAD and Cambridge DO make some amps that have fairly good sound for under $1000; they are the only exceptions to the rule that I know of.
It is pretty obvious from some of the ignorant garbage posted above that many of these people have never heard a system with a really good amplifier. Without a good amplifier that truly has low distortion it is impossible to tell what sort of sound a CD player is putting out. Trying to tell which CD player is better with the average crappy amplifier is like trying to tell if a blu-ray player is better than an el cheapo $39 DVD player when watching both on a 15" TV set that cost $69 in 1990 (duhhhh...they are all the same....duhhhhh).

I made the mistake 30 years ago of spending some fairly big bucks for speakers, and then feeding them with a mediocre CD player and amplifier; it basically sounded pretty bad.
The fact is that a pair of well-selected $300 speakers can sound very very good with a quality CD player and amplifier, but $3000 speakers will sound like **** if the CD player is a cheap unit.
Anyone who thinks that you should spend a lot of money on speakers first is ignoring the fact that they will give garbage out when you put garbage in! It is a stupid mistake that lots of people make when they don't know better. A quality amplifier is the essential first step to building a good system.
I just improved my $30,000 system by replacing my $6000 Ayre C5 SACD player (rated A+ by Streophile) with a $1500 Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD player. I think the Sony is the best unit you can buy for under $10,000; it really is THAT good.
I know most people are not going to invest the time or money that I have in my system, but a budget of $2000, if used INTELLIGENTLY, can get you a system so much better-sounding than the average that it is very nice to listen to. If you spend about $600 each for a NAD amp (C355BEE), a Cambridge CD player (550C), and some EPOS speakers (ELS8), for example, you will have something very nice to listen to. That NAD amp has low enough distortion that you will be able to accurately evaluate whatever you hook up to it.
See my detailed comments on the sound quality under "Sony vs Marantz" below.

When someone refers to himself as an audiophile and touts his awesome system, I start rolling up my pants legs.
post #232 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamZX11 View Post


Or if he started claiming that new spark plug wires gave him a 50 HP increase.
no but if your racing and they give you 1.5hp increase that is still and increase

but then everyone says that is just dyno error until you went through the work of getting a part known to give 10hp and then had it give 11.5 with the wires and only 10 without or something, but there are always skeptics.

I believe analog wires do something but price has nothing to do with it, radio shack stuff is cheap from beginning to end, but once you get into OFC and with good terminations in a braid for noise rejection thats all you need, anything over Audio Quest Type 4 or similar is way beyond the point of diminishing returns.

Now I fail to see how Digital cables would change at all, I want an Audio Quest evergreen USB cable but only for build quality and there only like 30 bucks.
post #233 of 266
I know these are a year old but what ever lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post


I'm missing something here. A CD is a digital medium. If a CD player sends a digital signal to a receiver that then, at the last stage, converts the digital signal to an analog signal, why would a CD player need DACs? It seems like the DACs would be in the receiver.


Floyd
Receivers do have D/A conversion if you connected the CD player with digital cables but sometimes the CD player's is better so you just have analog to the receiver and sometimes people just use the CD player to an analog amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post


When someone refers to himself as an audiophile and touts his awesome system, I start rolling up my pants legs.
I use to not consider my self an audiophile because I don't like perfectly flat sound and I general like more bass and don't listen to classical but I have sense realized 99% of people never really sit down and listen to there music and sense I do do that and there for am in the less than 1% I would say I probably am a audiophile. Apparently I'm a Videophile too because nobody else I know can see the awful spot lighting and uniformity issues with LCD's but me *shrugs*

So don't think every one who says they are a Audiophile is a stuck up ass, although most probably are haha
post #234 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I'm not seeing an argument about that at all?

CD players can sound different, obviously due to the DACs/filters/analog output stages. Not really much to debate except what sounds better or whether it's worth the $.

The primary reason that people think that CD players sound different is because they haven't done any really well-controlled listen tests.

Virtually 100% of the audiophile reports I see are based on listening tests that are full of personal bias.

We are all self-affirming, and part of self-affirmation is to praise ourselves for our decisions. Therefore, virtually all music player upgrades are successful to the new owner.

Trouble is, there is this little thing called reality. In reality it is possible to do a proper listening test comparing a $100 blu ray player and a $500 blu ray player and leave every option open to the listener except know what he is listening to at every instant and completely flummox the listener. Good DACs aren't that different any more, the filters are built into the DACs, and it doesn't take rocket science to build a decent analog output stage.

Quote:
I'm missing something here. A CD is a digital medium. If a CD player sends a digital signal to a receiver that then, at the last stage, converts the digital signal to an analog signal, why would a CD player need DACs?

It doesn't. Thing is that good DACs are now dirt cheap, and they are put into music players so that the device can be used with analog equipment, and can be tested by itself using common test equipment. Ideally, you keep the music in the digital domain as close to the speakers as possible.
Quote:
It seems like the DACs would be in the receiver.

Hold that thought!

The other thing is that AVRs aren't that simple any more. They have bass management and they have automated system optimization facilities. I know of no music players with anything comparable to Audyssey, MCACC or YPAO. Why should they have such things?

Do we need to have have to go through the expense of purchasing and grief of setting up both the digital player and the AVR so they can duplicate each other?

I just wanna get the system set up right and start listening to great music!
post #235 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaryFatKidGT View Post

no but if your racing and they give you 1.5hp increase that is still and increase

but then everyone says that is just dyno error until you went through the work of getting a part known to give 10hp and then had it give 11.5 with the wires and only 10 without or something, but there are always skeptics.

I believe analog wires do something but price has nothing to do with it, radio shack stuff is cheap from beginning to end, but once you get into OFC and with good terminations in a braid for noise rejection thats all you need, anything over Audio Quest Type 4 or similar is way beyond the point of diminishing returns.

Now I fail to see how Digital cables would change at all, I want an Audio Quest evergreen USB cable but only for build quality and there only like 30 bucks.

Did you really reply to a post that was well over a year old, just to give me your "beliefs"? When you can't supply any data to back up your "beliefs", of course there will be skeptics.
post #236 of 266
Here is an other twist

Parasound CD 1 CD player uses multiple readings to reduce errors

http://www.parasound.com/halo/cd1.php

Audio files may seem to have put paid to CDs, but new technology shows that, like vinyl, the format still has a few tricks left up its sleeves. CDs do a pretty good job of reproducing music, but many an audiophile claims the digital format lacks “warmth” and often suffers from tiny, yet detectable, imperfections that can be as jarring as serving Gordon Ramsay ketchup with lobster. The Parasound CD 1 player strives to eliminate these imperfections by ditching the conventional CD player in favor of a CD-ROM drive that spins CDs at four times normal speed in order to find and eliminate imperfections before they reach the speakers.

To call how a conventional CD player works as “simple” would be more than misleading, but it is relatively straightforward. As the CD player scans a disc, it converts the digital coding into an audio signal more or less in real time. True, there are algorithms and coding to try to mitigate errors, but the player’s job is essentially to act as a decoding and conversion device. This arrangement worked well enough to allow CDs to put vinyl LPs on the same shelf as Edison wax cylinders, but it still lets many disc errors slip by to the amplifier.

The Parasound CD 1, developed by Parasound of San Francisco in collaboration with Holm Acoustics in Denmark, uses a CD-ROM drive instead of a conventional CD drive, which turns it into something of a digital timewarp. The CD-ROM drive is connected to a passively-cooled Intel ITX computer with a large memory buffer that allows the player to store 30 seconds of playback audio. This gives the computer time to analyze the disc scans for errors without interrupting playback.

As the CD is spun four times faster than normal, the computer repeatedly scans the disc section by section, looking for errors by comparing each scan with a previous one. If no errors are detected, 30 seconds worth of audio data is dumped into the buffer and from there it goes on to the amplifier. If an error is detected and the player can’t resolve it before the buffer’s 30 seconds are up, it goes into “pre-interpolation analysis mode,” where the audio data is gone over one sample at a time until the bad fragment is found and isolated. According to Parasound, this always produces error-free data.

This multiple scanning and analysis also helps to reduce the “jitter” caused by timing errors between the digital disc scanning and the analog audio output. As the confirmed data is sent the buffer, it is synchronized with the CD-ROM input clock. This is then sent out of the player through an asynchronous USB interface where the output is timed by a second ultra-precise clock. To avoid any inter-DAC delays, the CD 1 also uses a single AD1853 Digital to Audio Converter (DAC) in stereo mode instead of one for each audio channel.

Not surprisingly, Parasound put a bit more into improving the sound quality than a new CD scanning system. There are three separate power supplies for analog and digital circuits, a six-layer DAC board for lower noise, proprietary software to ensure that the CD-ROM drive runs quietly, BNC digital cable outputs isolated by transformer couplings and massive aluminum partitions to isolate each function.

What also isn’t surprising is that the Parasound CD 1 doesn’t come cheap at US$4,500.

For that price you can buy a Mac mini with 1TB SSD and run audirvana you will get much better music smile.gif
post #237 of 266
For that price, I can get a really good surround receiver. I would rather see someone push 6 channel surround than to try and revive stereo, which is pretty stone age by comparison.

That said, I've always like Panasonic, and I'm surprised that they even made the attempt with most of the listening audience content to run around with dinky ipods glued to their heads.

Floyd
post #238 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Here is an other twist

Parasound CD 1 CD player uses multiple readings to reduce errors

http://www.parasound.com/halo/cd1.php

Audio files may seem to have put paid to CDs, but new technology shows that, like vinyl, the format still has a few tricks left up its sleeves. CDs do a pretty good job of reproducing music, but many an audiophile claims the digital format lacks “warmth” and often suffers from tiny, yet detectable, imperfections that can be as jarring as serving Gordon Ramsay ketchup with lobster. The Parasound CD 1 player strives to eliminate these imperfections by ditching the conventional CD player in favor of a CD-ROM drive that spins CDs at four times normal speed in order to find and eliminate imperfections before they reach the speakers.

To call how a conventional CD player works as “simple” would be more than misleading, but it is relatively straightforward. As the CD player scans a disc, it converts the digital coding into an audio signal more or less in real time. True, there are algorithms and coding to try to mitigate errors, but the player’s job is essentially to act as a decoding and conversion device. This arrangement worked well enough to allow CDs to put vinyl LPs on the same shelf as Edison wax cylinders, but it still lets many disc errors slip by to the amplifier.

The Parasound CD 1, developed by Parasound of San Francisco in collaboration with Holm Acoustics in Denmark, uses a CD-ROM drive instead of a conventional CD drive, which turns it into something of a digital timewarp. The CD-ROM drive is connected to a passively-cooled Intel ITX computer with a large memory buffer that allows the player to store 30 seconds of playback audio. This gives the computer time to analyze the disc scans for errors without interrupting playback.

As the CD is spun four times faster than normal, the computer repeatedly scans the disc section by section, looking for errors by comparing each scan with a previous one. If no errors are detected, 30 seconds worth of audio data is dumped into the buffer and from there it goes on to the amplifier. If an error is detected and the player can’t resolve it before the buffer’s 30 seconds are up, it goes into “pre-interpolation analysis mode,” where the audio data is gone over one sample at a time until the bad fragment is found and isolated. According to Parasound, this always produces error-free data.

This multiple scanning and analysis also helps to reduce the “jitter” caused by timing errors between the digital disc scanning and the analog audio output. As the confirmed data is sent the buffer, it is synchronized with the CD-ROM input clock. This is then sent out of the player through an asynchronous USB interface where the output is timed by a second ultra-precise clock. To avoid any inter-DAC delays, the CD 1 also uses a single AD1853 Digital to Audio Converter (DAC) in stereo mode instead of one for each audio channel.

Not surprisingly, Parasound put a bit more into improving the sound quality than a new CD scanning system. There are three separate power supplies for analog and digital circuits, a six-layer DAC board for lower noise, proprietary software to ensure that the CD-ROM drive runs quietly, BNC digital cable outputs isolated by transformer couplings and massive aluminum partitions to isolate each function.

What also isn’t surprising is that the Parasound CD 1 doesn’t come cheap at US$4,500.

For that price you can buy a Mac mini with 1TB SSD and run audirvana you will get much better music smile.gif

This is really funny. The methodolgy they describe for reading CDs is very similar to the procedure that has been used for over a decade to convert CDs to digital files on PCs with any number of different programs, many of which are highly regarded freeware. A laptop costing $500 can do the same thing and surf the web and do email at the same time!

The AD 1853 DAC that they mention is a 13 year old design that according to its manufacturer's web site "Is not recommended for new product design".

http://www.analog.com/en/audiovideo-products/audio-da-converters/ad1853/products/product.html

BTW, one can obtain a 1 terabyte SSD for less than $800.
post #239 of 266
"Not recommended for new product design." You've already taught us not to trust any manufacturer. wink.gif
post #240 of 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

...
That said, I've always like Panasonic, and I'm surprised that they even made the attempt with most of the listening audience content to run around with dinky ipods glued to their heads.

Floyd

Back when I had a Parasound amp in my setup, a visitor once kept referring to my Panasonic amp. Similar name for sure!
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