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ChromaPure v. CalMan - Page 2

post #31 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Correction: As of v3.6 you can use the CalMAN license that came with the S3 for most of the other colorimeter as well.

Really? Is that version out now? Haven't checked recently. If one, score one for Calman.
post #32 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

For a novice, it is a little intimidating at first, there are places where it was a little ambiguous (for a novice,)

Feedback is always appreciated. One of these days, I need to tackle the re-write of the help documentation.
post #33 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Absolutely interested in reading your thoughts between the two. I can attest to the fact that ChromaPure is easy to learn and elegant in design. I really like it and found it far more straightforward than ColorHCFR. Tom is pretty responsive as well and I don't have any concerns about after sales support. I can't speak to the differences between using the two programs (haven't used Calman) but there is a notable difference in licensing terms between the two and for me I found the Calman terms unacceptable. Not trying to be negative here but I think potential buyers should read those terms and decide what's best for their on situation.

Yeah, and I'll "warn" people here, I have no intention of bashing one or the other, just describing the differences in my usage. I know CalMan works well and has great support, and Tom has been great in my pre-order Q&A. I'm not aware of any licensing terms that are an issue for CalMan, but my usage has been pretty straightforward and simple.
post #34 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Feedback is always appreciated. One of these days, I need to tackle the re-write of the help documentation.

Bear, I have been a freelance writer in the computer industry for years (my "night job") and have worked with some developers and producers in the top software and hardware companies in the world (e.g. MS, Electronic Arts, Dell, etc.) including sessions with their GUI and doc folks, providing feedback on the "user friendliness" and effectiveness of their documentation. If you ever decide you'd like some feedback and suggestions (and I don't get my feelings hurt when developers and UI folks don't take my advice ) I'd be happy to help however I can.

Jeff
post #35 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I can't speak to the differences between using the two programs (haven't used Calman) but there is a notable difference in licensing terms between the two and for me I found the Calman terms unacceptable.

What did you find unacceptable?

We allow you to install your CalMAN on any/all computers you own. We have never tied our license to the meter serial number so you are free to replace the meter it at anytime without having to get a new license from us. As of v3.6 the meter license is only by type Colorimeter/Spectroradiometer. So if you wish to have 5 different colorimeters you can with a single license. We do restrict the use of the home license for non-professional work and you can't sell your home license on to another person. With the Pro license of CalMAN you can use it for professional work and you can sell your license as long as we are notified so we can update our records for support.
post #36 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Really? Is that version out now? Haven't checked recently. If one, score one for Calman.

Yes version v3.6 is shipping and has been for a couple of weeks. We just updated it to v3.62 to fix an update issue coming from v3.52.


http://www.spectracal.com/release_notes.html
post #37 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Really? Is that version out now? Haven't checked recently. If one, score one for Calman.

Yes, if you are using a version before v3.6, just download v3.62 and you are good to go with the Display 2's, DTP94, Chroma 5, ColorMunki Create and the other Spyders...



.
post #38 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Yes version v3.6 is shipping and has been for a couple of weeks. We just updated it to v3.62 to fix an update issue coming from v3.52.


http://www.spectracal.com/release_notes.html

Just d/led and updated my version. That's a great new capability/option, allowing us to use it with other meters - greatly appreciated, thanks.
post #39 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Absolutely interested in reading your thoughts between the two. I can attest to the fact that ChromaPure is easy to learn and elegant in design. I really like it and found it far more straightforward than ColorHCFR. Tom is pretty responsive as well and I don't have any concerns about after sales support. I can't speak to the differences between using the two programs (haven't used Calman) but there is a notable difference in licensing terms between the two and for me I found the Calman terms unacceptable. Not trying to be negative here but I think potential buyers should read those terms and decide what's best for their on situation.

I'm more interested in the meter comparisons.

I have an unused dpt-94 meter on it's way but was warned that because they haven't been made for years that it most likely will be out of calibration?

This was from Kal over at CurtPalme.

thx

bob
post #40 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

I'm more interested in the meter comparisons.

I have an unused dpt-94 meter on it's way but was warned that because they haven't been made for years that it most likely will be out of calibration?

This was from Kal over at CurtPalme.

thx

bob

Tom Huffman tested one of the DTP-94s he has for sale against their reference spectroradiometer and gave me the result and it was extremely good. FWIW.
post #41 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Tom Huffman tested one of the DTP-94s he has for sale against their reference spectroradiometer and gave me the result and it was extremely good. FWIW.

Yes the DTP-94 was one of the best colorimeters built to bad they quit making them some time ago. The only drawback if you could even say it was one is the need for a dark call offset every 10/15 minutes or so.
post #42 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Tom Huffman tested one of the DTP-94s he has for sale against their reference spectroradiometer and gave me the result and it was extremely good. FWIW.

Awesome, Thanks

Hope I get a good one

bob
post #43 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson-Flyer View Post

I don't see in black & white. A common misconception. Irony being, I probably see color better than you do. I just can't readily identify each color with a name. It's hard to explain to someone that's not color-blind.

Funny, I was just reading this link on Color Principals, specifically "The Spectral Basis for Color" section. As I learned that the words "Red", "Blue", "Green" etc. are names to describe the Hue property of color I thought to myself what would somebody do if they could perceive wavelengths less than 400nm (Ultraviolet) or wavelengths greater than 700nm (Infrared). Not being able to put names to the sensations they describe must be very frustrating. Ironically, the next thread on AVS I read was this one in which you confirmed my suspicions. I'm guessing you must be able to perceive some wavelengths into the Infrared due to the heat energy coming off the displays in torch mode, hence the ultra brightness to your eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

Most sets have gains and cuts.
Some only have gains.

As sotti said, the grayscale adjustments are going to require you to tweak the RGB Cuts and Gains. The location of these controls (if they exist) may sometimes be in the user menu but often they seem to be found in the service menu. The nomenclature for these controls will often vary, 'cuts' are sometimes called 'offsets' or 'cutoff' or 'bias' where as 'gains' can also be referred to as 'drive'.

A good idea would be to get the Service Manual for your display(s). Generally, these will cost you around $15 but I found the service manual for my 4yr old Plasma at http://www.fixdevice.com/ and it was free, YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson-Flyer View Post

I've even been chastised in the past by Chris for complaining about how hard this is and why somebody didn't do a simple guide to explain all this stuff.

Somebody did (actually two) and I would say these are a must-read for anybody who is contemplating calibrating their displays:

Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS
Greyscale & Colour Calibration for Dummies

The former is by Tom (creator of ChromaPure) and is more generic in nature and the latter guide goes into very specific detail using the ColorHCFR tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson-Flyer View Post

If I move to 70% and change the RGB values again, why didn't that screw up the ones I just adjusted? The display doesn't know I changed the picture being displayed! That's the sorts of things I'm having a hard time with.

I like sotti's analogy to a circus tent here, but I think it would more appropriate to describe it as a tent with two poles, one on each side, rather than a tent with a center pole. Changing the height of the right most pole (lets call this the drive/gain) is going to have most of it's effect on the tent material closest to that pole, but it will also have a non-zero affect on the material closer to the other pole. This principle is similarly true for the left most pole (lets call this cutoff/offset/bias).

I don't recall if ColorHCFR has support for the Sypder3 but if it does I suggest you get your feet wet with ColorHCFR and those two guides first. Once you get your bearings then consider purchasing a more enthusiast/professional level software like ChromaPure or CalMAN.
post #44 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

What did you find unacceptable?

We allow you to install your CalMAN on any/all computers you own. We have never tied our license to the meter serial number so you are free to replace the meter it at anytime without having to get a new license from us. As of v3.6 the meter license is only by type Colorimeter/Spectroradiometer. So if you wish to have 5 different colorimeters you can with a single license. We do restrict the use of the home license for non-professional work and you can't sell your home license on to another person. With the Pro license of CalMAN you can use it for professional work and you can sell your license as long as we are notified so we can update our records for support.

This is where I had an issue: "The Home license is valid only for personal use on your own displays." I did not want to be excluded from calibrating friends or family members displays. Yes, nobody is gonna know if I do it but (in my case) I won't buy any SW knowing I may violate it's licensing terms.

IMO, there are pro's and cons between Calman and Chromapure licensing and for me Charompure made the most sense. I also felt it would be a bit more straightforward to use but that did not factor into it after I read the licensing terms. To be clear though I'm not trying to be critical of your licensing - it was a factor for me and may or may not be for others. My recommendation for potential buyers is to read and understand the licensing terms for both programs and decide for themselves.
post #45 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

Yeah, and I'll "warn" people here, I have no intention of bashing one or the other, just describing the differences in my usage.

Super. No need to bash either. Differences exist and that means pros and cons exist and that means we have options.
post #46 of 233
For the OP.

As an enthusiast who started in 2004 with the MonacosysXrite SW DPT94 meter bundle to calibrate Computer monitors and gravitated to Color HCFR for TV calibration I can attest to what has been mentioned in these posts.

The chief frustration is not the software but the availability or lack of user accessible controls for the TV.

Calibration software whether HCFR, CalMAN or Chromapure have some learning curve but a few hours of practice will suffice with any of these.

From the Vizio 52GLF to the (old) Sharp 37D5U to my current LG 55LH90 it is the myriad of settings that may or not be there that confounds the novice calibrator.
My advice is to treat this as a hobby and enjoy the experiment. Use a decent meter, most are good for greyscale and some are better for color. There are many threads, meter shoutout for example, to enlighten the novice.

I now use ChromaPure and a Chroma 5 and wish there was a way to use the C5 to calibrate the DPT94 but that is another story.

My LG was calibrated by Bill Hergonson, owner of Coastcalibrations and his settings are locked in HDMI 2 as ISF Day and ISF night. This makes a handy reference to to use as a check on my humble efforts.

BTW since cataract surgery in October my right eye changed from 20/45 to 20/20 with near perfect color perception (the left eye is due in April)
and this enables excellent judgment of calibration results on actual program material. For grayscale evaluation, "the longest Day" on BR and "Casablanca" on HDDVD, both Monochrome films are a good test for color contamination.

Go for it OP, with that many displays to calibrate you should be done by the time you are my age (82).
post #47 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Yes version v3.6 is shipping and has been for a couple of weeks. We just updated it to v3.62 to fix an update issue coming from v3.52.


http://www.spectracal.com/release_notes.html

I have the CalMAN demo with the simulated meter. But the CalMAN site to order the Home license does not have the option to purchase just the license. The site just offers shipping for the software which would just incur a delay in receiving the order

How does one purchase the license only.
post #48 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

I have the CalMAN demo with the simulated meter. But the CalMAN site to order the Home license does not have the option to purchase just the license. The site just offers shipping for the software which would just incur a delay in receiving the order

How does one purchase the license only.

On our purchase page you can buy just the software and it does not charge for shipping because it's just an electronic key based on your email address.

http://www.spectracal.com/purchase.html

"CalMAN Home Edition - Software Only" or "CalMAN for the EyeOne Pro / ColorMunki - Software Only"
post #49 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

On our purchase page you can buy just the software and it does not charge for shipping because it's just an electronic key based on your email address.

http://www.spectracal.com/purchase.html

"CalMAN Home Edition - Software Only" or "CalMAN for the EyeOne Pro / ColorMunki - Software Only"

Thanks but my plan was to purchase from:
http://www.curtpalme.com/CalMAN.shtm

There is a $20 savings there but there seems to be no option to just purchase a license key to be delivered via an email link.
post #50 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

there seems to be no option to just purchase a license key to be delivered via an email link.

Since this has little to do with ChromaPure versus CalMAN I sent you a PM.
post #51 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by catmother View Post

Thanks but my plan was to purchase from:
http://www.curtpalme.com/CalMAN.shtm

There is a $20 savings there but there seems to be no option to just purchase a license key to be delivered via an email link.

Half way down the page on curtpalme are the links for "CalMAN Home Colorimeter" and "CalMAN Home Spectroradiometer".

BTW, all of our license keys are electronic and are delivered via email.
post #52 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefflackey View Post

I've calibrated two Panasonic Plasma G10s and a friend's plasma with the Spyder3/Calman setup. My intent is to go in and recalibrate both of my Panasonic G10 plasmas this weekend with the DTP-94/Chromapure combo.

Hi Jeff,

I'm keen to read about your experience between calman and chromapure, hope you'll be posting it soon.

Cheers,

Sam
post #53 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post

Hi Jeff,

I'm keen to read about your experience between calman and chromapure, hope you'll be posting it soon.

Cheers,

Sam

I notice that there's been no reply to this request - with the new Version 4 out, he'd have to start out all over.
post #54 of 233
It is interesting that this thread has been resurrected, as I will be doing a similar comparison very soon. I have owned and used UMR's i1 DCS software with an i1 Pro since 2006. I don't think Jeff is continuing development of this software nor does he even sell it to the public any more, though to be honest with you I haven't checked. I never got the i1 offsets properly established when using the meter directly in front of the lens and the i1's low level light performance is not good enough for use taking measurements off of the screen, so I decided to change software.

I decided to buy Tom's ChromaPure software, as I liked the look of it, it seems to be extremely user friendly, it supports Accupel automation, and Tom is just a really great guy. The software, with a single license (for my i1 Pro) cost me $200. To obtain the same level of usefulness from CalMAN for my particular configuration would cost $2995, as Accupel automation is only available in the "Professional" version.

As I thought about it, I realized that back in 2006 I had also purchased CalMAN when it was about to go from version 1.0 to 2.0. At that time I chose to buy the "Professional" version (a lot less money then ) because I absolutely did not want to live without Accupel automation, and that was the only way to secure my concern. To make a long story short, I never even used CalMAN at that time because I did not have the patience to learn the program. I am one of those people who launches a program, reads NOTHING in advance, and then tries to use it. If I can figure out how to get things up and running in 15 minutes or less with NO INSTRUCTIONS at all, then I will continue to learn and use the program - that is my personal test for user friendliness. But if I can't get things going without reading a text or help file, then the program will probably not be right for me....you know...REAL MEN DON'T NEED NO STINKING INSTRUCTIONS!... So I put CalMAN aside and have never used it to this day.

My next step was to purchase a Chroma 5 from Tom - not just a stock Chroma 5, but his "Pro" version which comes with offset files for many displays in order to increase its accuracy. Great...increased accuracy, no more "dark readings", much better low light performance, and of course, ***Accupel automation***... While I was waiting for the meter and mount to arrive, I decided to contact SpectraCal to see if my Pro license was still valid. I figured that they would allow me to use an older version, but to my surprise they sent me a new license which gives me full "Professional" access of the 4.0 software - kudos to SpectraCal for honoring their 4 year old agreement above and beyond the call of duty!

So now I will have the opportunity to use and compare BOTH software packages. I have 2 meters - the i1 Pro and the Chroma 5, though I don't have the offset files for the Chroma 5 unless there is some way to enter them into CalMAN (I will have to actually read the documents to know... ). I have already used ChromaPure with the i1 and will be writing a full report on it as soon as I recalibrate using the Chroma 5 Pro, but right off the bat I can tell you that I like it a LOT and find it EXTREMELY user friendly (I will go into more detail when I write the report).

Once I get settled with ChromaPure I will give CalMAN another go now that it is in its 4.0 version, which I will also report in full.

The interesting thing (to me) to note is the cost differential. For reasons that I really don't understand, SpectraCal seems to think that if one wants to use the Accupel generator, then he must be a "professional"....and that is simply not true. I am willing to bet that quite a few of us "enthusiasts" own Accupels and insist on the automation that can be had. It is also interesting to note that if one owns Spectracal's own pattern generator, one need buy only the "enthusiast" edition at 1/6th the cost of the "professional" edition. I wonder why...

ChromaPure supplies software for one meter with full Accupel automation included for $200.

Full reports coming....

Edit: I found a mistake in one of my posted prices...
post #55 of 233
Profiles (offsets) are in the editors panel. Someday they may be on the right hand side, but for now you have to add one to your layout from the left.

Once you've got the Meter Profile Editor open, you simply select the meter, click add profile, then you can manually enter the profile.
post #56 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

For reasons that I really don't understand, SpectraCal seems to think that if one wants to use the Accupel generator, then he must be a "professional"

I suppose you could ask the folks at Spectracal but if I were to speculate I'd say that whatever your level of enthusiasm it's a stretch that you need pattern automation to calibrate your personal displays. By the way, I have an automated DPG and it's much faster to use my BDP-83 even without auto advance and given the limitations of the DPG it's easy to understand why it would be considered an enthusiasts device.

By the way, auto advance is quite useful.
post #57 of 233
Quote:


Profiles (offsets) are in the editors panel. Someday they may be on the right hand side, but for now you have to add one to your layout from the left.

Once you've got the Meter Profile Editor open, you simply select the meter, click add profile, then you can manually enter the profile.

Thanks for the help, sotti!

Quote:


I suppose you could ask the folks at Spectracal but if I were to speculate I'd say that whatever your level of enthusiasm it's a stretch that you need pattern automation to calibrate your personal displays.

I understand, but as an enthusiast I would never consider calibrating my own display without automated pattern generation now that I've had it. My point is "what is good for the goose is good for the gander". That is, the Accupel is a precision, state of the art pattern generator, and the DPG-1200 is a precision, state of the art pattern generator (or at least that is my assumption) - they both serve the same functions. Why does the Accupel require a professional license while the DPG-1200 require only an Enthusiast license? I have a professional license anyway, so it doesn't matter to me personally, but I am just curious as to what SpectraCal's thought process is here.
post #58 of 233
Accidently fell into this Forum that seemed be headed the correct way versus a couple of other Calman Forums that didn't. So resurrected it. Glad you're back. Started with the i1Pro and Chroma5 both on with Profiling the Chroma5 to the i1Pro in the new Calman Ver 4. (PS. I really don't know what I'm really doing yet, but I'm trying on my own, but also taking Spectracal's Pro Seminar in August to pump up this 65 year old brain!) Ran into several problems on the automatic system with the DPG-1200 giving me the wrong Patterns. Turns out, I assume, during a power outage, or something, the 1200 reset to default values - Spectracal re-sent me the corrected settings. Got as far as the Luminance Task when everything Froze except the mouse movement. Couldn't click on anything. Apparently others had the same problem using XP Pro as well. One of the Forum members stated that the RC2 seems to have cleared up the problem. Have not gotten further to this point, but did ask Spectracal to come up with better Pluge Patterns for the Brightness and Contrast settings. Apparently, others have also made the request. The Picture Wizard on the LG 55LH90 was easier to work with to come up with a setting. (Whether it's entirely correct is another matter.) Spectracal says that this is in the works.
post #59 of 233
Look forward to your report, Bob. I too have Calman (now v.4) but not really used it since I (too) have found ChromaPure so easy to use. I use an I1Pro and I1Display LT in combo, and though I'm several steps behind you in sophistication with all this I hope to glean some useful info from your reports.
post #60 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

The interesting thing (to me) to note is the cost differential. For reasons that I really don't understand, SpectraCal seems to think that if one wants to use the Accupel generator, then he must be a "professional"....and that is simply not true. I am willing to bet that quite a few of us "enthusiasts" own Accupels and insist on the automation that can be had. It is also interesting to note that if one owns Spectracal's own pattern generator, one need buy only the "enthusiast" edition at 1/6th the cost of the "professional" edition. I wonder why...

Hi Bob. I'm one of those "enthusiasts" who bought into CalMAN's Professional version a few years ago, and who owns several items that are only supported in the "Professional" version today. I have a Konica Minolta CL-200, Accupel HDG-4000, Sencore VP403 - all of which are supported only in the Professional license. I am not a pro at all; I just calibrate my own displays and for a few close friends, all for free. However, now I find myself trapped going forward due to SpectrCal's pricing/product structure. I'm ok for the next year as I have a maintenance extension, but after that I will have to pay $500/year for a maintenance fee to keep current on the software. If I were a pro making my living using this product, this fee would probably be appropriate. However, in my case, I think this fee is way too high, and if not changed, will probably cause me to jump ship. I don't want to do this as SpectrCal has been very good to me, and their products have been extremely successful. So, I'm going to sit back and see how V4 develops over the next year and then decide how to go forward.

On another topic, i.e., the ChromaPure vs CalMAN shootout, I think it's too early in CalMAN V4's life to make this comparison. At this point, a comparison of CalMAN V3 vs ChromaPure might make more sense, but I don't think V3 is a current product. It's available as a download, but I don't know if a license is being sold for it, and I don't know if buying a V4 license entitles you to also use V3, so this comparison probably holds no value going forward.

It might be wise to wait a month or so before doing the V4 shootout, as it will give SprectraCal a little time to iron out the wrinkles in an ambitious new product. The interactive features take automation to a completely new level, not only with sources but with video processors and displays included. This takes the product complexities up several notches in that they are relying on users and other manufacturers keeping their interactive products up to date and knowing how to do so.

I have rambled on enough now, but I guess I'm recommending giving SpectrCal a little time to see if they can pull off this effort, and to see if they reconsider their pricing/feature configurations.

To be fair, I know virtually nothing about ChromaPure. I have looked at the site and went through some of the online demo, but that's as far as it goes - making me unqualified to make any comparisons. Tom's presence (and contributions) on this forum is a positive for sure. I wish he offered a demo version, but I intend to buy a ChromaPure license anyway so I'll be able to make an educated decision going forward.

Bob
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