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Acoustic Pannels. . .really?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Are 4" broadband absorbers esential in my Home Theater??

The "sweet spot" is on a elevated (1') stage that is filled with bat insolation and sand. The room has a double layer floating floor that sits on vibration isolations pads. I will be using the room for mostly Blu ray viewing and Xbox 360 gaming. The With exception to the projector, all of the A.V. equipment is in an ajoining room. The door to the room is solid wood with weather stripping around the border for a good seal. also the ceiling drywall is mounting to rc2 channel so the drywall is flush mounted to the rafters. All of the walls and rafters have been insulated with Bat-21.

Room Dimensions
12'4"x24'x8
LL
LL
post #2 of 23
Broadband absorbers (and all sound "treatments") are meant to improve the quality of sound within the room. They do this by reducing uncontrolled echoes, etc. (extremely simplified explanation). Walk into a bare room and clap your hands. It will echo and reverb. Walk into a treated room and clap and you'll immediately hear the difference.

That's a distinctly different problem than trying to isolate the sound from outside from getting in (your equipment and HVAC noise) and sound from inside from getting out ("Turn that goddam thing down!!!")
post #3 of 23
I can't imagine there isn't an existing room that doesn't benefit/need acoustical treatments. No room has a perfect acoustical response.
post #4 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokoloff View Post

Broadband absorbers (and all sound "treatments") are meant to improve the quality of sound within the room. They do this by reducing uncontrolled echoes, etc. (extremely simplified explanation). Walk into a bare room and clap your hands. It will echo and reverb. Walk into a treated room and clap and you'll immediately hear the difference.

That's a distinctly different problem than trying to isolate the sound from outside from getting in (your equipment and HVAC noise) and sound from inside from getting out ("Turn that goddam thing down!!!")

To take it further. . .will 6 2" panels of Owens 703 get the job done . . or do I really need the 4"????
post #5 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

To take it further. . .will 6 2" panels of Owens 703 get the job done . . or do I really need the 4"????

That's so situation-specific that it's impossible to say for sure.

I will say that I installed 5 sheets of 1" in my apartment (1 each on the first reflection points and 3 across the back), and the improvement in sound quality was NOT subtle...even my girlfriend could identify the difference (and not just from "those ugly things" [which I later covered in fabric and made nicer looking])

If you can only swing 2", absolutely do it. It's not a waste of time, regardless of whether 4" would be "better" for your room. You'll get more than half the benefit I'd casually guess.

--Jim
post #6 of 23
There is a difference between room isolation and acoustic treatments.
post #7 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

To take it further. . .will 6 2" panels of Owens 703 get the job done . . or do I really need the 4"????

Jim is 100% right in that every room is unique and requires case-by-case consideration, but I can say pretty confidently that almost every room requires broad band treatment. 2" panel are going to work great, but they're not going to get low enough to deal with the big problems that will develop below 250Hz. You really need panels at least 4" thick in each corner and on the back wall.

Frank
post #8 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post

Jim is 100% right in that every room is unique and requires case-by-case consideration, but I can say pretty confidently that almost every room requires broad band treatment. 2" panel are going to work great, but they're not going to get low enough to deal with the big problems that will develop below 250Hz. You really need panels at least 4" thick in each corner and on the back wall.

Frank

i was planning on placing 2 panels on the side front walls about 1/3 back from the front, then the next 2 on the left & right spot next to the "sweet spot", & the last 2 on the back wall evenly spaced out. What do you think on that application with the 2" 703's?


-Alan
post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokoloff View Post

That's so situation-specific that it's impossible to say for sure.

I will say that I installed 5 sheets of 1" in my apartment (1 each on the first reflection points and 3 across the back), and the improvement in sound quality was NOT subtle...even my girlfriend could identify the difference (and not just from "those ugly things" [which I later covered in fabric and made nicer looking])

If you can only swing 2", absolutely do it. It's not a waste of time, regardless of whether 4" would be "better" for your room. You'll get more than half the benefit I'd casually guess.

--Jim

If you had to chose (b/c of budget) to start with 3 4" panels or 6 2" panels what would be your choice??

-Alan
post #10 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

If you had to chose (b/c of budget) to start with 3 4" panels or 6 2" panels what would be your choice??

6 2" for sure.

Place one each on the first reflection points on the side. Sit at your listening location and envision (or have a helper actually carry) a mirror on the side wall. Move the mirror forward and back until you can see the reflection of your front speakers in the mirror (the closest speaker is the most important). Put a trap there. Repeat for the other side.

I'd then put the rest on the back or front corners (lay them at 45* across the corner). That's a good starting point anyway. I'd try doubling them up across each back corner first.

If you can get UNfaced 703 and space it slightly off the wall, it will likely be marginally more effective than mounted tight to the wall.

You can play around with the placement without actually covering them with fabric, but you surely want to cover them before making them permanent.
post #11 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokoloff View Post

6 2" for sure.

Place one each on the first reflection points on the side. Sit at your listening location and envision (or have a helper actually carry) a mirror on the side wall. Move the mirror forward and back until you can see the reflection of your front speakers in the mirror (the closest speaker is the most important). Put a trap there. Repeat for the other side.

I'd then put the rest on the back or front corners (lay them at 45* across the corner). That's a good starting point anyway. I'd try doubling them up across each back corner first.

If you can get UNfaced 703 and space it slightly off the wall, it will likely be marginally more effective than mounted tight to the wall.

You can play around with the placement without actually covering them with fabric, but you surely want to cover them before making them permanent.

Thank you for your help. I'm gonna get the 2" 703's and use these bags for covers.

http://www.readyacoustics.com/index....&products_id=5

I'll also be using a 2" wall spacer so they are not flushed mounted.

I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks again

-Alan
post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel9992 View Post

Jim is 100% right in that every room is unique and requires case-by-case consideration, but I can say pretty confidently that almost every room requires broad band treatment. 2" panel are going to work great, but they're not going to get low enough to deal with the big problems that will develop below 250Hz. You really need panels at least 4" thick in each corner and on the back wall.

Frank

Below 250 HZ until 125HZ and MAYBE 90hz ummm ok.

But tameing unwanted acoustical radiation in secondary rooms at frequencies of 50hz, 40hz, 30hz, 20hz, 15hz with panel treatments is a no go.

However.

Hemholtz Resonators do the job very well at these low frequencies that also involve vehicles that want to share with sleeping home owners songs like I love bass at the unruly hour of 2 AM and any DIY can make one or several for ten bucks each with just a simple paper sonotube, a cheap car or home audio woofer and some silicone for like I said ten bucks total.
post #13 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Burrows View Post

Below 250 HZ until 125HZ and MAYBE 90hz ummm ok.

But tameing unwanted acoustical radiation in secondary rooms at frequencies of 50hz, 40hz, 30hz, 20hz, 15hz with panel treatments is a no go.

However.

Hemholtz Resonators do the job very well at these low frequencies that also involve vehicles that want to share with sleeping home owners songs like I love bass at the unruly hour of 2 AM and any DIY can make one or several for ten bucks each with just a simple paper sonotube, a cheap car or home audio woofer and some silicone for like I said ten bucks total.

How would one actually make one of these Hemholtz Resonators and how/where would I put it in relation to my Dedicated HT
post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

How would one actually make one of these Hemholtz Resonators and how/where would I put it in relation to my Dedicated HT

As to how its just a paper sonotube with a cheap subwoofer or woofer mounted at one end.

The where is these go in most rooms that have unwanted vibration from your HT setup and this is the typical kids rooms or wife in bed room trying to read.

The best places are in closets and under beds and also in shorter versions under living room sofas, etc.
Out of sight and out of mind means high waf.

Then theres the simple excuse of telling the wife that you have had it! with boom cars and heavy trucks engines making noises and giving "free" wakeup calls at two or three AM and so you are implementing resonators under the beds since we derserve to sleep in peace! and you can forget to mention that these resonators also help controll midnight noises from the Home Theater Room.

The goal is to tame base energy that escapes your HT room and enters these areas.

Also of concern is base energy from kids audio cars playing base I love you at high SPL entering the bedrooms at 2AM.

I am going to setup a thread on this in the DIY area of subwoofers.
post #15 of 23
My advice is to set up your audio gear, then measure the in-room frequency response of your room in your primary listening position. Without any acoustic treatments, you will likely see severe dips and peaks in your frequency sweep. These dips and peaks are caused by speaker boundary interference (having speakers placed too close to walls, typically), room modes, and in the higher frequencies, comb filtering. Go measure your room and report back. You'll see what I mean. The dips and valleys can be in excess of 30db! Seriously go check it out. You'd be surprised what you're missing in your recordings!

Then, before you add *any* treatments, start moving your speakers and listening position (if flexible) around in the room and re-measuring each time. As you do this, your goal is to achieve the flattest response you can by mitigating SBIR and Modal issues at the listening position. For starters, focus on the lower frequencies, below 150hz. If you don't know what I'm takling about now, you will know within 20 minutes of starting this process, because it it will be fairly easy for you to see the frequency impact of the different changes you are making, which are due to speakers being too close to a wall, room modes, etc.

For a long time I avoided measuring my own room because I thought it would be too much of a pain. If you have a laptop, it's VERY EASY. And I have have made more real progress in improving the sound quality of my room in the last few months as a result than I made in the previous two years combined. Seriously, go do it.

Once you've optimized your seating and speaker positions, start adding acoustic treatments, a big batch at a time, and then re-measure your response and see where you're at. Typically speaking, in a dedicated HT environment running multi-channel, you'll want to do the following:

1) Completely deaden the front wall, typically with 1 inch of OC703 across the entire wall and floor to ceiling superchunk basstraps in the corners.

2) 2 or 4 inch panels placed at first reflection points (again, the depth of panel depends upon the room, but there is a school of thought out there -- oft debated -- that says that it's important to use 4 inch panels there if you can get away with it so as to avoid attenuating reflections unnecessarily.) But 2 inch is better than nothing, certainly.

3) Floor to ceiling superchunk basstraps in the rear corners of the room.

4) The icing on the cake may be diffusion in the rear of the room, but there is some debate about how far away from the diffusers you need to be to experience a benefit. I'll have something to report on this soon since I am currently in the process of building a full array of QRD diffusers for the back wall of my home theater.
post #16 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

My advice is to set up your audio gear, then measure the in-room frequency response of your room in your primary listening position. Without any acoustic treatments, you will likely see severe dips and peaks in your frequency sweep. These dips and peaks are caused by speaker boundary interference (having speakers placed too close to walls, typically), room modes, and in the higher frequencies, comb filtering. Go measure your room and report back. You'll see what I mean. The dips and valleys can be in excess of 30db! Seriously go check it out. You'd be surprised what you're missing in your recordings!

Then, before you add *any* treatments, start moving your speakers and listening position (if flexible) around in the room and re-measuring each time. As you do this, your goal is to achieve the flattest response you can by mitigating SBIR and Modal issues at the listening position. For starters, focus on the lower frequencies, below 150hz. If you don't know what I'm takling about now, you will know within 20 minutes of starting this process, because it it will be fairly easy for you to see the frequency impact of the different changes you are making, which are due to speakers being too close to a wall, room modes, etc.

For a long time I avoided measuring my own room because I thought it would be too much of a pain. If you have a laptop, it's VERY EASY. And I have have made more real progress in improving the sound quality of my room in the last few months as a result than I made in the previous two years combined. Seriously, go do it.

Once you've optimized your seating and speaker positions, start adding acoustic treatments, a big batch at a time, and then re-measure your response and see where you're at. Typically speaking, in a dedicated HT environment running multi-channel, you'll want to do the following:

1) Completely deaden the front wall, typically with 1 inch of OC703 across the entire wall and floor to ceiling superchunk basstraps in the corners.

2) 2 or 4 inch panels placed at first reflection points (again, the depth of panel depends upon the room, but there is a school of thought out there -- oft debated -- that says that it's important to use 4 inch panels there if you can get away with it so as to avoid attenuating reflections unnecessarily.) But 2 inch is better than nothing, certainly.

3) Floor to ceiling superchunk basstraps in the rear corners of the room.

4) The icing on the cake may be diffusion in the rear of the room, but there is some debate about how far away from the diffusers you need to be to experience a benefit. I'll have something to report on this soon since I am currently in the process of building a full array of QRD diffusers for the back wall of my home theater.

When you say deaden the front wall are you talking about the wall where the screen will go? What sucks is with my side walls being so narrow and my front speakers being so big (polk srs2.3tl's) I have to put them darn near the side walls. However I did put thick insulation in between each stud 7 I do have access to the back of the wall. I had to make it accessible. ..sub pump behind it.

Would you recommend mounting the 1" 703 covering & then mount the screen???? Here's a picture of the wall in question. I built it so the speakers (front left and right) will fit into the wall.
LL
post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

When you say deaden the front wall are you talking about the wall where the screen will go? What sucks is with my side walls being so narrow and my front speakers being so big (polk srs2.3tl's) I have to put them darn near the side walls. However I did put thick insulation in between each stud 7 I do have access to the back of the wall. I had to make it accessible. ..sub pump behind it.

Would you recommend mounting the 1" 703 covering & then mount the screen???? Here's a picture of the wall in question. I built it so the speakers (front left and right) will fit into the wall.

What a lot of people do is build a false wall (or proscenium), which they cover in an acoustically transparent fabric, and to which they then mount the screen. The front speakers and acoustic treatments go behind the false wall, where they will never be seen. That is the approach I took in my theater ( see the second or third page in the link in my sig for details on my approach, which was advised by Bryan Pape, who is one of the audio experts on this forum and others).

If your speakers must be right up against the wall, you might try spacing them off the wall a bit and dropping some fiberglass insulation inbetween the speaker and the wall. My speakers are very close to the boundaries of my room as well, but a 9 inch thick panel of fluffy pink fiberglass to the outside of each speaker raised SBIR dips by 5db. Then, some leftover acoustic cotton that I had sitting around placed behind the speakers (between the speaker and the front wall) further improved things.

Keep in mind, you have to measure, so you can see what good you're doing. This is especially important when attempting to mitigate SBIR. Measure, measure, measure. :-)

Insulation that you have inside your walls isn't going to help appreciably with SBIR, as the boundary (the sheetrock) is still too close to your speakers.
post #18 of 23
Here's an interesting article about front/screen wall absorption from Ethan at real traps

http://www.realtraps.com/art_front-wall.htm
post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post

Here's an interesting article about front/screen wall absorption from Ethan at real traps

http://www.realtraps.com/art_front-wall.htm

Whewwwww that was an eye opener. Thanks
post #20 of 23
If the acoustical "goal" is to reduce resonances that occur on drywall, (and subsequently detract from your listening experience with peaks and nulls), then the installation of broadband acoustical treatment may be your best bet. In all of the Home Theater rooms I've been in, only a handful did (obviously) not require low frequency attenuation via acoustical treatment or by other means. The point being, that if broadband absorbers fit your room's decor, and your spouse's aesthetic requirements, there is no downside to using them versus using HF Absorbers "only". And, applying such broadband acoustical treatments to the resonant surface can do more to alleviate the low frequency rumble issue than spacing the treatments off the wall with a gap.

However, if room resonances are not an issue (floated floor, decoupled ceiling joists and wall studs), then high frequency absorption may be a better option (smaller footprint, less expense typically, etc).



Joel DuBay
www.readyacoustics.com
post #21 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post

Here's an interesting article about front/screen wall absorption from Ethan at real traps

http://www.realtraps.com/art_front-wall.htm

With Ethan's data in mind, why does practically everyone still treat the entire wall
post #22 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

Whewwwww that was an eye opener. Thanks

It's an interesting article, and you can probably find the finer points debated, in one form or another, in the acoustical treatments master thread at the top of this forum.

Keep in mind, that most professional recommendations that I have seen include lots of bass trapping on the front wall, specifically in the corners, a solution Ethan favors as well, judging by his article. Also it is important to note that controlling reflections is not the only reason to install absorption on the front wall -- there is also the issue of controlling decay time and the fact that the front wall of a theater, behind the false wall, is usually a good place to put absorption because you typically have some depth to work with and it's out of sight. Of course, the key is not to OVERLY DEADEN the room (I totally agree with this), and once again, the key is measuring so you know how dead your room actually is. Theory only gets us so far.

If all you do is use thin high frequency absorption, you're going to deaden the highs and leave the muddy bass response swimming around in the room like a cess pool. Clearly, bass trapping is important. Most experts I've seen seem to agree (not all of them though!) that you can never have enough bass traps, with the caveat that an unmasked bass trap will also absorb mids and highs, in which frequencies it is quite possible to overdampen a room. The solution to this may be bass traps with some sort of mask to either diffuse or reflect high frequencies.

Again, measurements are key.

I don't think anyone would recommend arbitrarily putting one or two inch OC703 on the front wall as the ONLY acoustic treatment in a room. At least, I have never seen any of the experts here recommend that. Rather, it's important to have specific design goals with regard to frequency response and decay time, to spread treatments around the room, and to control reflections. Toward that end, 1 inch of OC703 on the front wall can DEFINITELY be part of the solution in a comprehensive room design.
post #23 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by ox1216 View Post

i was planning on placing 2 panels on the side front walls about 1/3 back from the front, then the next 2 on the left & right spot next to the "sweet spot", & the last 2 on the back wall evenly spaced out. What do you think on that application with the 2" 703's?


-Alan

That's probably okay if that's all you have to work with. Ideally you'd want panels at least 4" thick on the back wall....6" would be better.

Frank
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