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Need advice on tweaking my A/V system, and a NEW Plasma TV! Pioneer vs Panasonic..  

post #1 of 153
1/20/10 at 11:00pm
Thread Starter 
New here, did a Google search on the S1 vs V10, and the exact thoughts that Ive had stuck in my head for days now, were posted already! I found a great thread, but it was over 130+ days old, so I figured I would start a new one...

I'm personally torn between the following Plasma's, and I've included my personal Pro / Con opinions. Would love to hear what some true videophiles have to say. I'm tired of reading paid for reviews on the bigger named review sites.

60 Pioneer Kuro 6020 - PRO: Super Clear CON: Very Dim
58 Panasonic V10 - PRO: Very Clear, yet Warm CON: Backordered from Panasonic, and I don't trust online stores to deliver in one piece, and don't feel like waiting 6 weeks for a TV, unless it's a far superior 2010 secret model I don't know about!
58 Panasonic S1 - PRO: Price, Picture is pretty clear CON: For some reason, side by side, same settings (both cinema mode) the 58 looked noticeably clearer than the 65 (from about 15 ft away) - I have yet to see a 65" that looks as good as a 58"... but would love one if it existed!
58" Samsung 860 - I personally think (in my local Best Buy's Magnolia store) that the 58" Samsung 860 was the best all around picture, however, I went through 2 sets already trying to get one that doesn't have the infamous BUZZ! Omg, so very annoying the picture on it is clear, nice colors, and bright, but not too bright

Also, I have a question about Professional Calibration --- Does it do anything for clarity and brightness? ...or is it just adjusting the color temperatures, etc according to the surrounding lighting conditions, etc. I don't mind spending some money for something I'm really going to enjoy, however, I hate blowing even $1 out of principal on hype and myths...

My Stuff:

A/V Receiver: Harman Kardon AVR247 7.1 Receiver
Surround Sound: Jamo ACS Satellite Surround Sound System (sounds amazing for the $300 I spent on them --- I know there's much better out there, but until I get a dedicated home theater room, I'm waiting for a big move in that arena - I have Dynaudio Components in my car, and will probably go with them when I make this move!)

Watching Movies: Bluray/PS3 >> I was recently told that the PS3 isn't the best source for Blu Ray? I thought everybody licenses the same Blu Ray Technology from Sony?

Watching Regular TV: Direct TV

Wiring: I'm using Rocket Fish HDMI's. I've read a signal is a signal when it comes to HDMI's? (I purchased a $150 Monster HDMI Cable along with a Monster power surge protector / line conditioner, and it did absolutely nothing. I returned it the same day)

-- Would love to hear of any recommendations if any, for me to improve my current setup? Thanks in advance!



Jason

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post #2 of 153
1/22/10 at 2:06pm
Thread Starter 
Bump - Please help??
post #3 of 153
1/22/10 at 4:36pm
Wait for the 2010's. What are you watching now?
post #4 of 153
1/22/10 at 4:49pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Wait for the 2010's. What are you watching now?

I'm watching a 50" Panasonic TH-50PZ850U currently...

Thanks for the reply...
post #5 of 153
1/22/10 at 4:59pm
I don't know why you think the 6020 is "very dim" compared to those other models--people here have reported it hitting around 50 ftl in Standard mode--but I would take that in a heartbeat if available.

If not, wait for the 2010 Panasonics.
post #6 of 153
1/22/10 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

I don't know why you think the 6020 is "very dim" compared to those other models--people here have reported it hitting around 50 ftl in Standard mode--but I would take that in a heartbeat if available.

If not, wait for the 2010 Panasonics.

My local Best buy has over 100 of them in stock, they said they would sell it for $3499 to me... but I just cannot justify the $1000 difference. vs the V10, or the $2,000 difference over the S1... I know it probably looks amazing at night, but it is a fairly dark screen in comparison... no? Can calibrating the 6020 make it a tad brighter? I did notice that the clarity was by far the best when sitting close to the set...

I currently have a 50 inch PZ85U Model...
post #7 of 153
1/22/10 at 5:40pm
What AV mode was the 6020 in?

It should be able to run with the Samsung and Panasonic in terms of brightness if you configure it for that purpose.
post #8 of 153
1/22/10 at 6:02pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

What AV mode was the 6020 in?

It should be able to run with the Samsung and Panasonic in terms of brightness if you configure it for that purpose.

Well, it was originally in a dark mode, I believe "pure", but it looked the best to me in Game mode... still nowhere near as bright as ANY other TV in Magnolia at Best Buy... I know thats far from the best way to compare, but I nice mix of deep blacks and rich colors / brightness is what i was going for.. which to me, the Samy 860 had, but the buzzing drove me nuts.. tried two of them.. no good.. no support at all... as you probably already know from the millions of posts about this issue lol
post #9 of 153
1/22/10 at 7:15pm
If brightness is your thing, you may just want to check out LED. Otherwise, I can't imagine the Panny or Samsung getting much brighter than the Kuro.

(The 2010 Panasonics may improve upon that, but we won't know for a few more months.)
post #10 of 153
1/22/10 at 7:19pm
Quote:


still nowhere near as bright as ANY other TV in Magnolia at Best Buy

That would require the proper AV mode and Contrast setting.
post #11 of 153
1/22/10 at 10:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

If brightness is your thing, you may just want to check out LED. Otherwise, I can't imagine the Panny or Samsung getting much brighter than the Kuro.

(The 2010 Panasonics may improve upon that, but we won't know for a few more months.)

It wasn't even close. It looked as if the Kuro had a piece of dark window tint over the screen. (in "Pure mode") Again, it was clear, colors looked fairly true... but the definitely did not "pop" as so many Kuro fans brag about. The only TV's that looked "natural" and "bright" without being "too" bright, were the Samsung 860, which I tried twice and will never touch another pos Samsung product again, and the Sony XBR8 actually... but the 52" would not cut it for me. LED's are so "fake" in color, I wouldn't even consider it... the whites looked blue. The Kuro's whites looked cream at best. The Sony and the Samsung both looked "white" - not too bright, and not dim... It's a shame that Samsung has such a buzzing issue with those TV's... but then again, there CS is the absolute worst I have ever experienced with any electronics company ever.

So my dilemma here is... will I get over the "dim" look of the Kuro in a normal darker setting, in my living room... probably... but now I'm reading about buzzing issues with these too? ughhhh.... I'm definitely leaning towards the Panasonics, but I still dont know if the V10 is "that" much of a difference over the S1... I don't care about anything but the picture. I don't care about speakers, I only need 2 HDMI outputs, PC inputs don't matter... it's strictly being used as a monitor... which leads me in another direction... The Kuros come in straight monitors? I didn't even know this...

If I could brighten up a Kuro monitor a little bit (through calibration? --- still waiting for someone to answer this for me...) that would be perfect for me.. but I'm not sure if calibration can do anything for this?
post #12 of 153
1/22/10 at 10:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

That would require the proper AV mode and Contrast setting.

I played with all of the settings I could access with the remote... "Game" mode was the brightest, and still dim in comparison to the Samsung 860 and Panasonic V10's...
post #13 of 153
1/23/10 at 4:47am
What were the Contrast settings on the 6020? Was it connected to the same source as the others?

What AV modes were the Samsung and Panasonic in? They can get very bright in their Dynamic/Vivid modes respectively, but those are strictly store modes. They are not suitable for livingroom viewing as their gamma is horrible and they clip detail.

I'm not too familiar with what settings are available on the 6020 by default. They are crippled in that area versus the Elites and KRPs, but I'm not sure that a calibration would make it any brighter than what you could do on your own with the proper adjustments. The PRO-141FD and KRP-600M are both 60" monitors, and both can get a good deal brighter than a calibrated 6020. But they have become increasingly difficult to find.
post #14 of 153
1/23/10 at 7:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

It wasn't even close. It looked as if the Kuro had a piece of dark window tint over the screen. (in "Pure mode") Again, it was clear, colors looked fairly true... but the definitely did not "pop" as so many Kuro fans brag about. The only TV's that looked "natural" and "bright" without being "too" bright, were the Samsung 860, which I tried twice and will never touch another pos Samsung product again, and the Sony XBR8 actually... but the 52" would not cut it for me. LED's are so "fake" in color, I wouldn't even consider it... the whites looked blue. The Kuro's whites looked cream at best. The Sony and the Samsung both looked "white" - not too bright, and not dim... It's a shame that Samsung has such a buzzing issue with those TV's... but then again, there CS is the absolute worst I have ever experienced with any electronics company ever.

So my dilemma here is... will I get over the "dim" look of the Kuro in a normal darker setting, in my living room... probably... but now I'm reading about buzzing issues with these too? ughhhh.... I'm definitely leaning towards the Panasonics, but I still dont know if the V10 is "that" much of a difference over the S1... I don't care about anything but the picture. I don't care about speakers, I only need 2 HDMI outputs, PC inputs don't matter... it's strictly being used as a monitor... which leads me in another direction... The Kuros come in straight monitors? I didn't even know this...

If I could brighten up a Kuro monitor a little bit (through calibration? --- still waiting for someone to answer this for me...) that would be perfect for me.. but I'm not sure if calibration can do anything for this?

You were comparing the Kuro in Pure mode to everything else? Pure is basically a nighttime AV mode, and somewhat dimmer by design. Most people use Standard or Optimum for daytime viewing on their non-elite Kuros.
post #15 of 153
1/23/10 at 8:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

You were comparing the Kuro in Pure mode to everything else? Pure is basically a nighttime AV mode, and somewhat dimmer by design. Most people use Standard or Optimum for daytime viewing on their non-elite Kuros.

I switched from pure to game (seemed to be the brightest) and tweaked it ad much as I could to my liking... and that is what I thought would probably be acceptable, in my livingroom, fairly dark... but I just found out this morning that the 50" Pioneer on display isn't even a Kuro it's an Elite... so unless the Kuro is brighter, Im probably just getting the S1 and having it calibrated. Nit much input here...
post #16 of 153
1/23/10 at 9:09am
If it's a 2008/2009 model Pioneer, then it's a Kuro, Elite or not...

And a calibrated S1 will not be much brighter than Kuro, if it's brighter at all.

Exactly what model were you looking at? A 6020 is 60", not 50".
post #17 of 153
1/23/10 at 9:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhaller View Post

You were comparing the Kuro in Pure mode to everything else? Pure is basically a nighttime AV mode, and somewhat dimmer by design. Most people use Standard or Optimum for daytime viewing on their non-elite Kuros.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450 View Post

If it's a 2008/2009 model Pioneer, then it's a Kuro, Elite or not...

And a calibrated S1 will not be much brighter than Kuro, if it's brighter at all.

Exactly what model were you looking at? A 6020 is 60", not 50".

That's not even close to true. The S1 and the V10 are both substantially brighter. I've seen them side by side... again, my #1 goal is not to have the brightest TV, but something that is both brigh, accurate and clear. The Pioneer to me is very clear, but dim. The S1 is nice, but I wouldn't be happy unless it became a tad brighter with calibration?

Can someone please tell me if calibration does anything for clarity?
Thx
post #18 of 153
1/23/10 at 10:04am
A calibration will certainly be dimmer than what you saw if the Panasonics were in Vivid mode. It's highly inaccurate.

Panasonics are generally calibrated in either THX or Custom mode, both of which are far dimmer than Vivid.

Without knowing what settings you were viewing, how the displays were hooked up, if they were displaying the same source and what model Pioneer you were looking at, it's difficult to be more helpful.
post #19 of 153
1/23/10 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

That's not even close to true. The S1 and the V10 are both substantially brighter. I've seen them side by side...

"Nit much input here..."

There's plenty of input here, but you'd rather go with what you see in a store where a) you have no idea what settings are being used on the displays you're looking at, and b) it's unclear whether you even KNOW what displays you are looking at.

If you're looking for knowledgeable people to tell you that 12G Panasonics are brighter than 9G Kuros to confirm God knows what you think you saw in a store, you're probably out of luck, because 9G Kuros are every bit as bright as any plasma on the market. So rather than telling a long-time poster he's not telling you the truth, research the actual measured light output from the displays at issue.
post #20 of 153
1/23/10 at 11:12am
I owned three 58 V10s and now currently own a 6020. The 6020 is, in my opinion, a much better television.

It also can produce a much brighter picture than the V10.
post #21 of 153
1/23/10 at 2:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AberLink View Post

I owned three 58 V10s and now currently own a 6020. The 6020 is, in my opinion, a much better television.

It also can produce a much brighter picture than the V10.

I went and looked again at the Kuro, directly above the V10, and it wasn't even a comparison as stated earlier. I know what I saw, and 2 other customers as well as the Magnolia rep all agreed with
me that the V10 was a better picture. They were all playing an HD Loop via Blu Ray, all hooked up with components. I played with the settings on both TV's, and the Panasonic was simply superior as far as colors and the blacks were just as good IMO. I wish there was something I was missing about the Kuro, but after reading hours and hours of threads it seems as if more people than not are just brainwashed by "paid for" reviews... the technology is old, and the V10's 24p is far superior to the Kuros.
post #22 of 153
1/23/10 at 3:21pm
Yes, the technology is so old and outdated that Panasonic bought the patents and is phasing it into their 2010+ display lines.

Anyway, buy whatever you want and enjoy. But there is very little that a V10 does better than a 9G Pioneer.
post #23 of 153
1/23/10 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

I went and looked again at the Kuro, directly above the V10, and it wasn't even a comparison as stated earlier. I know what I saw, and 2 other customers as well as the Magnolia rep all agreed with
me that the V10 was a better picture. They were all playing an HD Loop via Blu Ray, all hooked up with components. I played with the settings on both TV's, and the Panasonic was simply superior as far as colors and the blacks were just as good IMO. I wish there was something I was missing about the Kuro, but after reading hours and hours of threads it seems as if more people than not are just brainwashed by "paid for" reviews... the technology is old, and the V10's 24p is far superior to the Kuros.

Then buy the Panasonic rather arguing with owners of the set. Seems pretty simple to me. To be honest, your posts come across as trollish and using it as an opportunity to knock down the Elite. Chances are you won't be able to find a new one for sale anyway so get the Pany and be happy.
post #24 of 153
1/23/10 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

I went and looked again at the Kuro, directly above the V10, and it wasn't even a comparison as stated earlier. I know what I saw, and 2 other customers as well as the Magnolia rep all agreed with
me that the V10 was a better picture. They were all playing an HD Loop via Blu Ray, all hooked up with components. I played with the settings on both TV's, and the Panasonic was simply superior as far as colors and the blacks were just as good IMO. I wish there was something I was missing about the Kuro, but after reading hours and hours of threads it seems as if more people than not are just brainwashed by "paid for" reviews... the technology is old, and the V10's 24p is far superior to the Kuros.

lol, the calibration reports tell another story, as do the published shootouts. That's a helluva lot of paying off.
post #25 of 153
1/23/10 at 6:53pm
Buy what you want dude. You're the one asking Pioneer vs. Panasonic...

I'm just telling you from personal experience that I enjoy the 6020 way more than the V10. I even spent $800 more on it and I won't go back to the V10.

I had followed D-Nice's settings for both TVs and my g/f and I both agree that the 6020 takes the cake. I would never trust the settings of TVs setup at a store.

Never.

The V10 is an amazing TV nonetheless, so enjoy.
post #26 of 153
1/23/10 at 10:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AberLink View Post

Buy what you want dude. You're the one asking Pioneer vs. Panasonic...

I'm just telling you from personal experience that I enjoy the 6020 way more than the V10. I even spent $800 more on it and I won't go back to the V10.

I had followed D-Nice's settings for both TVs and my g/f and I both agree that the 6020 takes the cake. I would never trust the settings of TVs setup at a store.

Never.

The V10 is an amazing TV nonetheless, so enjoy.

Ok, I went to see it again to get my wifes opinion, and after playing with the settings further, I would agree that the Pioneer is a "tad" better... as far as the blacks are concerned... but not $1500 different... so we ordered the V10, and donated some money to Haiti instead. Suddenly, having the blackest of blacks didn't seem so important after watching some specials on the disaster this afternoon. Anyway, thanks for the replies... and to the individuals who thought I was "trolling" to bash a particular TV, well dude... I'm sorry you even have the time to think this way. I could care less what the majority of "Pro's" choose... I was going by my eyes... and after much thought and tweaking the TV, it has a "slight" edge but they were pretty darn close... Anyway thanx again...
post #27 of 153
1/23/10 at 10:36pm
The OP claims blacks are as good on the V10 as the (5020? 6020?), won't tell us any settings, doesn't care about the store environment and isn't interested in looking at calibration reports - you know, the actual "science" part of AV science.

No need to waste any more time here discussing things he doesn't want to know. Let the crickets move in.
post #28 of 153
1/24/10 at 2:07am
The Panasonics that I saw today at the store looked blurry had very noticable color banding and color crawling artifacts. Also the whites looked yellowish. After all this hype I thought it would be a better tv when I saw it in person. In 500 hours you might run into the black levels doubling on you.

I ended up purchasing a kuro elite signature 101fd. I got a super deal on it too.

Can't wait for it!
post #29 of 153
1/24/10 at 6:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhunkler View Post

so we ordered the V10, and donated some money to Haiti instead. Suddenly, having the blackest of blacks didn't seem so important after watching some specials on the disaster this afternoon.

What, after almost two weeks of non-stop media coverage you still didn't know about the scope of this disaster until yesterday?

This post gets my nomination for AVS Passive-Aggressive Post of the Year!
post #30 of 153
1/24/10 at 6:59am
First Haiti has nothing to do with what tv is better. The pio kuros remain better than any panasonic offering (so far)in every way, that's why they cost more.
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