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Lemme get this straight (for audio) - HDMI to monitor and THEN back to amp?

post #1 of 26
1/26/10 at 6:58pm
Thread Starter 
OK - it's been a while since I've waded in the world of A/V, so bear with me (I did use to be cool, but life and family got in the way - when I was last 'into' A/V, my 50" RPTV and Component cables were all the rage).

I am considering a HTIB, and in reading the manual online, it seems that, in order to get audio to the speakers, I have to take HDMI out from the device (blu-ray, satellite, Roku are my three), to the receiver, HDMI to the monitor/TV, THEN (and this is the part that I am unclear on) go from the monitor/TV using optical Audio cables BACK to the receiver and then onto the speakers?

Do I have this right? Why would this be the case? Wouldn't it be easier to 'split' the audio in the receiver itself, send the audio to the speakers and pass the video to the monitor. Am I missing something here? It seems that the receiver is not just switching the video signal (as I understand some receivers do), but is in fact pushing the audio to the television (along with the video), then the television is pushing the audio back to the receiver...

The system I am looking at is the Sony 'about to go extinct' HT-IS100, as it is wife-friendly.
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post #2 of 26
1/26/10 at 7:00pm
dunno about your specific htib, but typically HDMI carries both audio and video...

hdmi from source to receiver. sound is broken out, decoded, amplified, and sent to the speakers.

than a 2nd hdmi from receiver to display, to deliver the video portion of the signal.
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post #3 of 26
1/26/10 at 7:06pm
But this "could" be the case. You would need the digital cable from tv to receiver if your cable or signal goes to your tv 1st. Most have it going into the a/v receiver 1st, so then you wouldn't need that cable. Again I can't stress how little I know. But it might help point you and me in the right direction.
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post #4 of 26
1/26/10 at 7:13pm
There are some low-end receivers that can't process HDMI audio. They just act as HDMI switches. If this is the case for that receiver, you will have to pull audio back from the TV for every device connected only with HDMI.

If this actually is the case, my recommendation is to get receiver that can handle HDMI audio, as you are only going to be getting 2-channel stereo sound from all of your sources by running audio though the TV.

If the receiver actually can use HDMI audio, the audio connection from the TV back to the receiver would only be needed if you are using the tuner in the TV. If you're using a satellite tuner and don't watch any OTA broadcast TV, you shouldn't need this.
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post #5 of 26
1/26/10 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

There are some low-end receivers that can't process HDMI audio. They just act as HDMI switches. If this is the case for that receiver, you will have to pull audio back from the TV for every device connected only with HDMI.

Incorrect...
In that mentioned use case, the AVR only has HDMI switching for HD video. So here one would use the SD audio decoding capability of the AVR. Connect the HDMI cable for HD video from the source component such as a Blu-ray player, and connect a 2nd cable from the source component such as an optical or coaxial cable to the AVR for SD audio decoding. This way you can still enjoy the HD video and even though the SD audio may be down a notch to most users it is still very good.

Also note that most HD displays that have an audio output either coaxial or digital will only pass a 2-Channel signal, whereas my mentioned procedure will deliver 5.1 or 7.1 digital surround sound

Not a perfect solution..
But the system will have superb HD video performance and very good audio performance. Until the time the user can step up to a higher cost AVR with on-board HD audio decoding.

Just my $0.01..
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post #6 of 26
1/26/10 at 8:19pm
Other than for M Code, who got it right... One thing a few of you seem to be missing, with what he mentioned in all that cable routing. If you use the optical output from the TV, and route it back to the AVR/HTIB. It is not going convert the HDMI input to the TV into a optical a 5.1 surround sound output. It will only be down mixed to 2 channel sound. Actually, the only thing the TV will probably output in 5.1 via it's optical output, is the programming from it's own internal tuner. If he wants 5.1/7.1 sound from a HDMI source on a optical output, then he would also need to connect the optical output from HDMI source itself direct to the AVR/HTIB. And not use the optical output of the TV.
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post #7 of 26
1/26/10 at 8:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Incorrect...
In that mentioned use case, the AVR only has HDMI switching for HD video. So here one would use the SD audio decoding capability of the AVR. Connect the HDMI cable for HD video from the source component such as a Blu-ray player, and connect a 2nd cable from the source component such as an optical or coaxial cable to the AVR for SD audio decoding. This way you can still enjoy the HD video and even though the SD audio may be down a notch to most users it is still very good.

No, it is not incorrect. My example specifically referred to source devices connect only by HDMI. Of course you're not going to have pull audio from the TV for source devices with separate audio connections going directly to the receiver.
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post #8 of 26
1/26/10 at 8:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Other than for M Code, who got it right... One thing a few of you seem to be missing, with what he mentioned in all that cable routing. If you use the optical output from the TV, and route it back to the AVR/HTIB. It is not going convert the HDMI input to the TV into a optical a 5.1 surround sound output.

Yeah. That's what I said.
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post #9 of 26
1/26/10 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

Yeah. That's what I said.

Only if you want to ignore the fact that you really gave no explanation at all as to why. Or gave any option for a work around, to get the 5.1 surround sound via optical with a HDMI source. Actually, you were very vague in what you said.
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post #10 of 26
1/26/10 at 10:00pm
His receiver does HDMI audio, according to the specs. He only needs audio out of the TV for the tuner in it that I doubt he is using. He doesn't need any work arounds with extra audio cables.
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post #11 of 26
1/26/10 at 10:10pm
People sure seem snippy lately! I hope it's just a phase!

In general, as it's been said above, you don't want to run HDMI to your TV from a device, say a Blu-ray player, and then run audio back from the TV. The reason being TVs are not setup to handle that. There's a long boring explanation for why, but you probably don't care.

There are a few standard connection methods.

First off, don't buy an HITB that does not properly handle HDMI audio! Make sure it plays back HDMI audio.

1) Preferable, when it works. Connect your device, such as a Blu-ray player to the receiver with HDMI. Then connect the receiver to your TV with HDMI. As I say you want an HTIB that can playback HDMI audio. It should not say something like HDMI switching. Feel free to post a link to the HTIB
2) In some cases HDMI does not work well, such as with some cable boxes or PVRs. In this case you may want to run an optical cable for sound to the receiver from the device in question. You have a few options for connecting video depending on your HTIB capabilities.
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post #12 of 26
1/26/10 at 11:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

His receiver does HDMI audio, according to the specs. He only needs audio out of the TV for the tuner in it that I doubt he is using. He doesn't need any work arounds with extra audio cables.


Yeah and, you're also kind of a bit late to the party with that info. You should have posted it before that it supports HDMI audio.
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post #13 of 26
1/26/10 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Yeah and, you're also kind of a bit late to the party with that info. You should have posted it before that it supports HDMI audio.

Well, why didn't you just post that information yourself instead of complaining now about when I posted it?

It took an exhausting 5 seconds on Google and another 10 seconds reading a specification page to learn that information. Is that too involved for you?
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post #14 of 26
1/27/10 at 12:00am
Then I guess you should have spent that whole 15 seconds of time looking earlier when you made your first post.
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post #15 of 26
1/27/10 at 12:21am
I'm very sorry. I didn't realize that you need every single tiny little detail to be researched by someone else and spelled out to you. I'll be certain to keep that in mind for any future conversations.

Please send me a PM whenever you decide to respond to anyone else's forum posts so that I can Google the answer for you and PM it back to you so that you can make a fully-informed reply in the thread without having to make any effort yourself.
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post #16 of 26
1/27/10 at 4:54am
Thread Starter 
Guys,

Didn't mean to cause a fuss. The text in the attachments was what threw me:

However, it is specifically in the HDMI section... so I'm still not 100% certain...

I think that one of the original posters may have solved/stumbled on the answer - in the context of the quote above...

It would be necessary to connect the AVR and the Television as described above if you have audio which does not first go to the AVR, such as OTR transmissions or if you have devices which for some reason are connected directly to the TV first Since I dont have any devices that connect directly to the TV (or won't once i get this HTIB), this will not apply to me.

Sound logical??

Thanks again!
LL
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post #17 of 26
1/27/10 at 5:21am
I'm not really certain why it's in the HDMI section of the manual. Maybe they put it there to confuse people.

But you are correct that, in your configuration, you don't need to worry about connecting the TV audio-out to the receiver. You would only need that connection if you had an antenna or analog cable connected to the TV so that you could use it's internal tuner, or if you plugged some other source device directly to the TV, like through it's front-panel inputs.

If you don't have easy access to your receiver and think you may want to ever use those front-panel jacks on the TV, it may be worth going ahead and running the audio cable back to your receiver. That will save you from having to pull everything back out to hook it up later on. I generally find that when I don't bother connecting something because "Heck, I'll never use that" I find myself wishing I had connected it a few months later.
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post #18 of 26
1/27/10 at 7:25am
The optical back from the HDTV has nothing to do with your HDMI sources. That is to get audio from the HDTV's internal tuners only. All audio sources need to come from the source to the audio system with no other devices in between. (Ok maybe an Optical to Coax converter, but no other devices in between)
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post #19 of 26
1/27/10 at 8:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Then I guess you should have spent that whole 15 seconds of time looking earlier when you made your first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboRay View Post

Well, why didn't you just post that information yourself instead of complaining now about when I posted it?

It took an exhausting 5 seconds on Google and another 10 seconds reading a specification page to learn that information. Is that too involved for you?

Why don't you start a separate thread for bickering - seriously how old are you?

Original question is already answered in this thread so moving on, but attitude for the sake of attitude is what is starting to annoy people here and you guys are definately contributing to that
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post #20 of 26
1/27/10 at 8:30am
Guys...
Why all of the ruckus..

HDMI is explained in many different ways, the floor sales guys their lites are out, and even certain brands mention HDMI switching in the same vein as an HDMI repeater..

Its a fast and changing situation, thats why we have these types of info forums to help others understand the dilemma and challenges of connecting up these new fangled HD products..

Lets move on.

Just my $0.01..
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post #21 of 26
2/1/10 at 8:21am
I just posted my new question here (post#2900 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...738511&page=97 post#2900)

But here it is again:
I thought I would only need one cable to the TV from the AVR. I may be too late to route a digital cable between the 2, now. It is a 45 ft run and I'm not sure if they put conduit in the walls there.

I haven't picked out a receiver yet. I was planning on running everthing into the receover and then onto the tv through one HDMI cable. I was not planning on using the surround speakers all the time. 1)So am I not going to be able to use the TV's speakers, on their own? 2)Are the TV's speakers not incorporated in the 5.1 surround process? 3)Does it matter if the receiver is off or on? (Mainly, do I get video and sound on the TV when the receiver is off?)
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post #22 of 26
2/1/10 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

I just posted my new question here (post#2900 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...738511&page=97 post#2900)

But here it is again:
I thought I would only need one cable to the TV from the AVR. I may be too late to route a digital cable between the 2, now. It is a 45 ft run and I'm not sure if they put conduit in the walls there.

I haven't picked out a receiver yet. I was planning on running everthing into the receover and then onto the tv through one HDMI cable. I was not planning on using the surround speakers all the time. 1)So am I not going to be able to use the TV's speakers, on their own? 2)Are the TV's speakers not incorporated in the 5.1 surround process? 3)Does it matter if the receiver is off or on? (Mainly, do I get video and sound on the TV when the receiver is off?)

There are some receivers that allow you to do this, that is allow audio from the display without having the AVR on. I don't know which make or models do this. I have no use for it because I bought my equipment to use all I want when I want. Display sound doesn't do it for me. It was okay when there was only 2 channels available but not now with 5.1 DD or PLIIx or z. Search and those AVR's can be found. I think some of the Denon's and Pioneers allow this. Not sure of other makes and models. Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for in the price range you want.
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post #23 of 26
2/1/10 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

I haven't picked out a receiver yet. I was planning on running everthing into the receover and then onto the tv through one HDMI cable. I was not planning on using the surround speakers all the time. 1)So am I not going to be able to use the TV's speakers, on their own? 2)Are the TV's speakers not incorporated in the 5.1 surround process? 3)Does it matter if the receiver is off or on? (Mainly, do I get video and sound on the TV when the receiver is off?)

1. Yes, there are a number of different mfr's that offer HDMI pass through (audio/video) to the TV when the AVR is in Standby. All of the 2010 Denon models from last year offer this feature, including the lowest level 1610/590.

2. Correct, they are not.

3. See #1.

Perhaps the point you're missing is that the only reason to have an optical connection from the TV back to the AVR is if you either have an OTA roof antenna or don't have a cable/sat box and feeding the coax cable from the wall directly to the TV. In both cases you would be using the TV's internal tuner and if you wanted surround sound for those sources, an optical connection to the AVR would be required, otherwise, there's no reason to connect the TV ---> AVR.

Also, if you don't have one already, you'll need an HDMI extender to ensure the signal gets to the TV over that long HDMI run.
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post #24 of 26
2/1/10 at 9:00am
Well...I started my own thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1222765 )to kind of help me along while I am researching the AVR threads. I felt I need to ask this right away. I am trying to go through the AVR threads and find the answers without asking questions, on those threads, until I have read the whole thread.

As far as the extender goes, I thought I could try it out first and see if worked. And if it didn't I believe, then I could add an amplified extender behind the AVR? Hopefully that would then work?

Can the TV's speakers take part in the 5.1 sound, or would that mess it up. It seems like to me the more the better.

But thanks to you and Batpig, I understand now. This forum post 2902 and 2903 go into more detail on my current understanding.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...738511&page=97 Thanks!
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post #25 of 26
2/2/10 at 2:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

1. Yes, there are a number of different mfr's that offer HDMI pass through (audio/video) to the TV when the AVR is in Standby. All of the 2010 Denon models from last year offer this feature, including the lowest level 1610/590.

2. Correct, they are not.

3. See #1.

Perhaps the point you're missing is that the only reason to have an optical connection from the TV back to the AVR is if you either have an OTA roof antenna or don't have a cable/sat box and feeding the coax cable from the wall directly to the TV. In both cases you would be using the TV's internal tuner and if you wanted surround sound for those sources, an optical connection to the AVR would be required, otherwise, there's no reason to connect the TV ---> AVR.

Also, if you don't have one already, you'll need an HDMI extender to ensure the signal gets to the TV over that long HDMI run.

These are my two cents. First my AVR is NOT HDMI equipped therefore the HDMI audio is OFF. HDMI is strictly used for VIDEO in my 5.1 HT set-up. For DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1 I use the coaxial digital audio outs of my DVD players(two BD and one SD). My HD sat. rcvr. has an optical digital audio out. My OTA is connected to the sat rcvr. and YES I get 5.1 DD SS. I also employ the six analog outs from my Oppo BDP-83 to my Denon AVR-5700 which I use for SACD's and DVD-Audio's playback. Finally I have tried the same analog outs during BD movie playback and I can't convince my ears to enjoy that sound so I go back to 5.1 DD or 5.1 DTS. I almost forgot to mention that TV speakers remain OFF when playing surround sound.
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post #26 of 26
2/2/10 at 4:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

As far as the extender goes, I thought I could try it out first and see if worked. And if it didn't I believe, then I could add an amplified extender behind the AVR? Hopefully that would then work?

I've heard of a few folks that have gotten the signal to go as far as 50' with quality (Monoprice) HDMI cables; however, generally anything beyond 35' is iffy and requires a powered extender at the AVR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mphfrom77 View Post

Can the TV's speakers take part in the 5.1 sound, or would that mess it up. It seems like to me the more the better.

Most folks would disagree, however, as it's your setup, and if it sounds good to you, you can do as you please. Folks always ask which audio setting or configuration sounds better, when in the end, it simply boils down to what sounds good to that particular person.
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