speaker cables and jumpers vs bi-wiring - Page 2

Just not relevant. Draw yourself a picture of the system, amp, wires, crossovers, back through the amp internal wires and transistors. A bad connection can be relevant, not an inch of brass.

Are you bi-amping or are you bi-wiring?

If you are bi-wiring then haven't you simply changed the point at which you jumpered? That is; you are bridging both binding posts at the amp instead of at the speaker.

Thanks for pointing that out at Totems website. Line item 6 had me laughing. I guess I can remove Totem from the list of 'recommend to friends'

From Totems FAQ

Bi-Wiring Advantages

Bi-wiring obviously has a greater energetic flow and allows less saturation to occur to either the tweeter or woofer. Information to the speaker is basically an electron flow through the wire.


"If the terminals for both the tweeter and woofer have the advantage of each having a particular signal going to them (without different medium/material interference via jumper) then that signal has less interference. The signal also has a greater wire surface area to go through and the result is a greater dynamic headroom, clarity and imaging capability."

So if I read this right and assume they are talking about bi-wire and not bi-amp.

1. The current cable wasn't adequate enough to carry the entire current load to the speaker

2. That there is less interference. I am assuming that they are inferring to the potential bleed over of different cross over sections. That is IMD (intermodular distortion). The only way to get rid of that is either use Active cross overs or a bi-amp scenario where the amps are electrically isolated on the outputs from one another.

Well, Totem does make some very nice speakers even if their WEB has a pile of BS on it. Sometimes they put that kind of dribble out there because some of us expect it. Right or wrong, because of the press, you are "expected" to have bi-wire terminals to shopw you are "high end". I prefer to just listen to the product.

I sure as all get out hope that no one is trying to carry a DC current load to their speakers!

Actually 11 awg (In Canare 4s11 4s = 4 strands, and 11 = 11awg)

I also bought the Canare, bi-wired, heard no difference but since it only cost me the price of an extra 4 bananas, I left my system biwired

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDis...oductItemID=65

It is 4 x 14AWG. If you twine it into two pairs it becomes 2 x 11AWG.

I also notice a difference of sound depending on what sets of terminals(connected by jumpers) chosen for the connection on bi-wire capable speakers. I notice this on both Monitor Audio RS6's and Elemental designs W6-6TC's.

I also noticed my W6-6TC speakers did not sound the same(lost detail) after going from a bi-wire
to standard setup. I also heard this difference on Monitor Audio RS6's(too bright bi-wired)

Polk also sells this snake oil which got me to try it but I heard no difference:

http://www.polkaudio.com/education/s...uestion_num=53

"I was shocked by the difference bi-wiring made with LSi9s in my listening room. The midrange "opened up," becoming clearer and more detailed with improved three-dimensional imaging. Voices and other midrange sounds were more "out-of-the-box" than with the single wire hookup."

It ain't the same without the Totem beaks.

I have those all over the place.

This is of interest from the Polk site:

In bi-wiring, one cable pair delivers high frequency information to the tweeter and a separate wire pair delivers low-frequency signal to the driver from the same amplifier. According to one theory, by providing each "half" of the signal a separate wire path, interference effects within the wire are reduced producing better sound. We're not in a position to explain in-depth, or for that matter prove or disprove this or any other theory.

So when I stuff two wires into the same binding post on the amp how do I tell the amp that one wire is only for the tweeter/mid woofer and the other wire is for the woofer.

Additionally, How do I tell the amp that I only want 750 Hz and above going on one wire and 749hz and below going over the other? Can I get rid of those pesky cross-overs now?

What happens if I swap wire position at the speaker? Will it blow up?

I like how 'We're not in a posistion to explain in-depth'. Of course you are not because you simply can not defend the indefensible.

I take this as prima facie evidence that they are also not qualified to design loudspeakers.

I bi-amped my Boston VR-M60 fronts because 1.) my amp supports it 2.) I figured it wouldn't hurt and 3.) I used 18 gauge Monoprice speaker wire terminated myself with banana plugs.

I thought it sounded a little better, but as studies have shown, ears are highly suggestible (i.e. they tend to hear what they think they are supposed to hear).

Very useful if you live over an old Indian burial ground.

Perhaps he is missing the jumpers altogether??

Nope, you can't get rid of the crossovers. They are what "tell the amp" that one wire is for the highs and other for the lows. The impedance of a bandpass filter goes up out of band, so less current flows through a filter at out-of-band frequencies. The filter is in series with the wire, so less current flows through the wire. [With single-wire systems, as one filter is going out of band, the other is coming in band, so the parallel impedance (and total current) stays about the same.]

If you want a sharp transition right at 750 Hz, you need very sharp crossovers.

If you swap wire position at the speaker, the frequency bands each wire carries changes (as if by magic!)

Mind you, I don't think any of this matters one whit. The frequency bands are, in fact, segregated into the different pairs by the filters that make up the crossover network, but I'm not buying the "interference effects" in decent copper wire.

Hmmm... Due to the limits of the Internet you didn't get the sarcasm that was my entire post.

I understand what a crossover is. I actually have DCX 2496 doing active x-over duty for my subs...

You can get IMF in passive crossovers. A truly high end setup could be bi-amped, tri-amped, or even quad-amped depending on your speaker. With the x-over duties being done at line instead of speaker level signal you have isolated all the circuits.

I don't:


I think he responded in kind. At least I hope he did.

if by removing the jumpers, the low & high pass filters are seperated/isolated when each is attached (bi-wired) to the amp which has the full freq range, the low pass would attenuate the high freq and vice versa

they would present an effective higher impedance to low freq current (for the high pass) and high freq current (for the low pass) and attenuate the respective current? so in the high pass leads, less low freq current/signal, and in the low pass, less high freq current/signal

I'm no filter expert though

The Polk forum is for entertainment value only. There's no real information there at all, just audio voodoo.

I would have begun my first reply with "I know you're kidding, but...", except I wasn't sure you were kidding in most of your post. I could tell that, like me, you think that bi-wiring is BS at "So when I stuff two wires...", but a lot of people really don't have a clue "how the amp knows". Forgive me for not recognizing that you did know since you asked the question, and it did have an answer.

You next asked a question (how to get a complete transition between 749 and 750 Hz) that at least theoretically has an answer, even if not a realistic physical one, and I gave a theoretical answer. If that was an attempt at reductio ad absurbum, it don't work.

And, thanks, sivadselim. Yes, I did mean that reply to the obviously facetious question in jest - hence the comment about magic, and rare, for me, smileyfaceicon. At least you got it. Mostly.

The fact is, in bi-wired systems the wires do carry different frequency bands, so sarcasm that questions that is, IMO, misplaced and adds nothing to the discussion, only fuel to the fire. Whether splitting the bands between wires actually makes a difference or not is completely different.

Sorry for misunderstanding your post, but I'm not alone.

They work much better on the drivers themselves.

No, they don't!

no, they don't...

in bi-amped systems with an active crossover they would...

but in a bi-wired system, they carry the exact same thing...

No, no they don't. You have only changed the place that you jumper at. The same signal is now on both wires. It's like taking the solid metal jumper from the speakers, attaching it to the amp and then running both cables from it.

Bi-amped systems with an active cross over down stream will carry different frequency bands and get rid of IMF.

I know that. What is interesting is the most vocal ones that shout down everyone else are on no other audio boards..

1. They either know that their crap wouldn't be tolerated
2. They have tried but been banned

All I know is that when I go to here, htguide, hometheatershack, AH, you can't find them by their nickname.

I am not sure if you are referring to electrically isolating the different passive cross over circuits. It can not be done with a bi-wire setup.

Just to be clear: Bi-wire is two sets of wires being ran to the same binding post of amplification. No isolation/separation has taken place. You have only moved the jumper from the binding post on the speakers to the binding post on the amp.

you'd want your active xover "upstream"...

i.e. source ---> xover ----> amp ----> speaker