speaker cables and jumpers vs bi-wiring - Page 4

btw: I NEVER said you could hear a difference...I don't know, some may...

but in THEORY it could reduce distortion(s) because you have a narrow freq band in each conductor...

I agree and from my non PE but 30yr EE background I concur with your theory.

But the irony is anyone that picky about their audio performance should go to a proper bi-amped system. When you look at passive crossover design at speaker power levels, there are so many other distortions and tolerance issues involved that this bi-wire technique is a joke.

Filter design 101: What is the target load impedance? Well with a typical speaker it ranges from three to tens of ohms based on frequency. See the problem. That aside there are very good sounding passive crossovers made and have been for over 50 years. The reason such sloppy engineering is doable is that human hearing is not that good either.

Whether biwired or single wired, the amplifier sees two filters in parallel. The only difference with biwiring is the added reactance of the additional cabling, which is trivial compared to the xover values.


That would require the conductor to have a non linear transfer function. Show me the evidence that copper is non linear.

I understand that back EMF (dampening) will be isolated for 8 feet. Isolated until it hits the speaker terminal where as an electrical circuit it's all the same.

The time domain for EMF may have changed but has not been eliminated.

Simply put if one is arguing for EMF isolation between driver elements when it comes to bi-wire, well that argument doesn't hold any water. Just delaying the inevitable.

Now whether that delay is an audible difference I couldn't tell you but I know where I would put my $$.

I don't know enough to know if it is significant
I can't hear well enough to tell and any improvement is masked/dwarfed by other deficits/limitations in my system

I do know this:
1) it is cheap, Lowes SO cable, 4-#12's and 1/2 hr of my time installing it...
2) the manufacturer specifically recommends it (and they don't sell wire)

it was easy, cost nothing, so I did it...may not help, but can't hurt...
seems logical

I'm NOT going to buy ay $100/ft cable in the foreseeable future

i believe they call it heat. and it's also one of the reasons why there is some power loss in using passive crossovers (as opposed to active crossovers) that are found inside speakers.

yes the amp does, but the respective freq is attenuated at its terminals and does not flow into the filter, it is blocked, ie, each wire sees less of the total spectrum...

copper?
how about resistance, capacitance and inductance
complex and nonlinear...
but it's the filter that does the 'work', not the connecting wires

no one is talking about EMF, it is less than inconsequential...

I'm talking about caps and inducts blocking currents of a certain freq

the cap is before the resistor...

caps have no 'real' power dissapation, no R
they are a complex element, store and release energy, but don't dissapate it
that's why when talking about caps we discuss energy, not power

so, if the low freq current leaves the amp terminal where it travels down the wire and encounters the cap: and it can't get through the cap (the whole reason for having it there to begin with), and seeing since the jumper is removed there is no alternate return path, were does it go?
just 'sits' there? piling up in front of the cap? wouldn't the wire 'buldge'? or explode, lol like a pinched garden hose

in summary:

R blocks or impedes all freqs
C and L only impede certain freqs (C = lows, L = highs)

so if a low freq signal coming out of the amp sees a high impedance due to a C, it won't travel, because it has no return path, it can't seek potential equalization, it gets backed up/absorbed/not generated in the amp...so it won't even go into the high pass wire...

it WILL travel thru the amp terminals and out the low pass wires becassue the L presents a low impedance and the opportunity for a return path to earth/ground/common ground plane

just as if a full freq signal sees a higher R for a given gain setting (say 4 to 8 ohm speaker), less current will flow, and the qty that didn't flow, is 'left in' the amp...

No. Full spectrum flows down both sets of cables in the bi wire and it is the result of reactive components in the xover section that means that some doesn't get to the driver.


You need to understand what non linearity actually is. My previous comment was related to distortion.

really? so they have infinite reactive storage capacity?
where does it go?
if it can't get past the cap?
say it's DC...won't it charge the cap and stop flowing?

so, all freq and energy goes there, and is stored there, and the same for the other filter, so bi-wring takes twice the energy/power?
really?

I got this all wrong: I thought a transformer (L) transferred energy, not stored it...although most have a ~5% loss due to energizing, once 'hot', it transfers 95%...btw, they are pretty good at filtering DC, which circulates in the primary, but not the secondary...similar to a 'filter'


YOU need to understand that it is moot in this case
we are not talking about the conductors, but flow of energy
but the reactance will cause phase shift, both + and - depending on C and L and freq
isn't that non-linear distortion?

if you don't believe me, another source: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cab...ages/4953.html

excerpt:
The fundamental way a loudspeaker crossover works is to vary the impedance seen by the speaker and by the power amplifier. In the case of the woofer, the crossover network for it has a very low series impedance at low frequency's that gets gradually higher and higher in impedance between the amp and the speaker at higher frequency's. For very low frequency's, there is lots of current flow to the woofer, and for higher frequency's, there is little current flow due to the much higher impedance. In the case of the tweeter, at low frequency's the series impedance is very high and very little current flows, and as the frequency goes higher, the impedance of the crossover network gets lower and lets through more current.

The situation is such that when the full range musical signal is applied to the terminals of a full-range speaker system, the woofer only gets sent low frequency signals, and the tweeter only gets sent high frequency signals. Once the crossover networks have been electrically separated, they still continue to function in the same manner, having a low impedance in their passband of application. This means that if separate speaker cables are hooked up for the woofer and it's portion of the network, and the tweeter, and it's portion of the network, not only have the speakers and the frequency's directed and divided for them, but the two separate speaker cables will now also carry different signals, the woofer cable mostly the lows, and the tweeter cable mostly the highs.

Once the highs and lows have been separated in this fashion, the strong current pulses and surges that a woofer demands when reproducing bass or drums will not interact with the delicate sounds of a flute or cymbal. The magnetic field of the low frequency signals cannot modulate or interfere with the highs, and to a lesser extent, the reverse is true.

Now that the low and high frequency signals have been divided among not only the speaker drivers, but the speaker cables, these cables can be more specialized for their intended purpose. The woofer cable can concentrate on low DCR, and not have any big concern for extremely low inductance, the tweeter cable can be designed for very low inductance, and not as concerned about total DCR.

you aren't going to win any "hearts and minds" by posting audiophool bs from audio asylum...

Here we go...


Because of the X-over...


You just posted an almost textbook definition of MULTI AMPLIFICATION. Not Bi-Wire...

That is ACTIVELY cross overed and then each driver having a separate channel of Amplification.

What do YOU think 'electrically separated cross over networks' implies?

facts are facts...
even a stopped clock is 'right' twice a day

sorry... when they start talking about "specializing" cables, it goes into the land of voodoo...

+1 to jinjuku's post...

don't believe everything you read on the 'net but here you go...

http://www.audioholics.com/education...to-loudspeaker

http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-conundrum

the article is about passive bi-wiring NOT active bi-wairing or biamplification...

title: Bi-wiring

I KNOW what it means, the jumper is removed, you have 2 seperate x'overs...

it's not the net, it's what I learned at a major university in a class about designing filters...it's EE 101 really
I can simulate this with mathcad or matlab, and have

again, did not say it makes an audible difference...
but it does channel low freqs thru one wire, high thru the other, based on their x'over freqs...that is a fact, non-negotiable...

I know some folks around here will think:
a bowling ball and cue ball will fall at different rates
cold tap water boils faster than warm
lol

i think the issue may be people talking about how the amp "sees" the signal and how the loudspeaker "sees" the signal. see the above links.

But your entire quoted text actually proves my side of the argument.

That YES INDEED electrically isolating speakers is the way to do it. I read what you quoted and can find no interpretation that would lead me to believe that they are talking about bi-wiring a speaker.

Listen, I would LOVE for my DIY speakers to take on a whole new dimension of sound just by throwing $30 of cable and connector at them.

But it doesn't. From my ZDT 3.5's, Polk RTi's, Polk TSi's, PSB Imagine and Synchrony series (My friend is authorized seller for PSB/NAD). None of these systems I have bi-wired ever made a difference.

really?
facts are not negotiable, you can't make them up...

none have made a difference to YOU...to some it has

the physics are clear, one cable carries low, the other highs...period
whether that has a noticable effect is open to discussion (as we are doing)

I can't say either way, the only thing I KNOW for FACT is that each cable will carry different frequencies...does it matter? who knows...I don't, and I'm sure you don't

Is the x-over up or down stream of the amp?

No, both cables carry the same signal because when the meet at the amp, they are the same circuit...

If one attemps to measure the currents on the Bi-wired cables at a set frequency, perhaps it will show clearly what ArthurPe is trying to explain.

wrong...again

Please explain for us what 'Electrically Isolated' cross overs are... Because it sure isn't two x-overs connected to the same terminals on an amp whether by cable runs or by jumper plates.

very astute comment!
that would do it, 2 freq ranging amp meters along with a signal generator:

hook 2 sets of wires up to the generator, one to the high terminals and one to the low terminals...
put one meter in series with the hi pass leads and one in the low...

set frq on the siggen to 10k hz at 1A output:
you will see ~1A in the high pass leads
you will see ~0A in the low pass leads

then set frq to 40 hz at 1A output:
you will see ~0A in the high pass leads
you will see ~1A in the low pass leads

And when I measure at the leads coming off of the amp? I believe your reply will make my point...