Official LG "XXLH90" 240hz LED User Setting/Calibration Forum - Page 45

Finished a series of tests with S&M using the film and video sequences with Real Cinema on and off and see no difference.

True Motion on the other hand messes with the wedge patterns and the race car sequence causing noticeable artifacting (moire) on the patterns with low and high settings. These flaws are absent with True Motion off.
Strangely the artifacts are not much different between low and high.

Plan to leave True Motion off for a while.

The tests were done with the Duo in line in order to feed the TV the most pristine signal possible.

Have you ever been able to get the xvYCC option Enabled in order to adjust it?

Direct connected the Sony BDP-S1000ES to the 55LHX panel and started an IMAX Blu-ray. The xvYCC Option did not leave the Grey Zone and make itself available to change. Noticed on the Sony Blue-ray Player, the options for the xvYCC are Off and Auto. Does this mean only certain DVDs have the xvYCC output to activate the Option? If any, suggestions?

My only xvYCC source is a JVC HD 1080p camcorder which has an option to turn xvYCC on. The JVC has HDMI out and have viewed recordings with xvYCC on and off on the LH90.

In both cases xvYCC is always grayed and set to Auto. In any case there seems to be no difference in the displayed image between scenes recorded with or without xvYCC.

There seems to be no picture choice on the LH90 which allows xvYCC adjustment. That includes Expert, ISF, THX and user modes. Likewise the HD option is always grayed.

I'll do a web search and see if there is anything there.

This from a Cnet review of the 47LH90


here
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-19410_102-349354.html

From the LH90 manual

This is the function to express richer color.
This feature represents rich color as much as conventional video signal.
This function is enabled in "Picture mode - Expert" when xvYCC signal is inputted through HDMI

A few more observations.
When the LG is switched to an OTA SD (480i) channel the color standard entry, while still grayed, displays SD in instead of HD.
Moreover the 'Expert Pattern' entry is now available with a choice of Off, Pattern1 and Pattern2. The latter displays 2 standard SMPTE test pattern, color bars on pattern1 and the standard SMPTE resolution pattern on pattern2.

xvYCC is till grayed.

Check your LHX manual and see whether xvYCC is available.

Same Info in the 55LHX manual. It appears Nony was able to activate it using the LG Blu-ray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided
Does the PS3 support xvYCC? It looks like my BD390 supports xvYCC / Deep Color over HDMI.

My original fat PS3 has an option to set deep color over HDMI,
Quote:
Quote 'xvYCC is significant ONLY if all components in the chain support xvYCC. Do not utilize this setting on any component unless everything else can fall into place. Once set, xvYCC should override and RGB or YCbCr settings.'

This is true, but according to this article discussing HDMI 1.3 and the inclusion of deep color:
Quote:
Neither HD DVD nor Blu-ray support xvYCC or Deep Color, and never will. Those features are beyond the spec of either format.

Quote:
Long story short, even if you have a brand new HDTV that can actually render all of those billions of new colors (most can't), and even if you have HDMI 1.3 connections on both ends and every piece of equipment in-between, you'll simply never get those colors from a Blu-ray or HD DVD source. Maybe in some other type of product (like an HD camcorder or video game) or some future movie format, but not from HD DVD or Blu-ray.

The article goes into more detail about why this is so. Something may have changed in the Blu Ray spec since this was published three years ago, but if not, deep color/xvycc should be a non-factor regarding Blu-ray output, and if available, should probably be disabled for Blu-ray playback.

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Over the years I have seen many posts where the user has calibrated their TV with decent equipment and software only to find that colors when viewing BluRay and other decent program material the observed colors look wrong.

There is a perfectly normal explanation for this, physiological differences in the eyes rods and cones vary between individuals as does the brain's interpretation of these signals.

This site has an explanation of that issue and is worth reading.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/colo...ndividualdiffs

and be prepared for a learning experience.

The original 1932 CIE tests which led to the formulation of what is called the 'Standard Observer' used a large number of test subjects and led to a 'scatter diagram' which clearly displayed the differences in human visual perception of color.
If a particular individual's color perception lands in the center of the scatter diagram, the agreement between the calibration and program material would be excellent. If not, that individual would most likely disagree with the calibration results and post that calibration is a waste of time and money.

This one reason why ISF certified calibrators, after calibration, always use a pristine test DVD/BR test disc to insure customer satisfaction.

Very good find and very good reference. I've explained this to many people but some still think it's "smoke and mirrors". Add to this years of people watching bad TV settings and even differences in the color space or accuracy of DVD/Blu-ray players and the task is indeed daunting.

The last statement is key. Always follow up any adjustment with a reference DVD/BR and show an owner what to look for and then listen to what his opinon and tastes are. Many times all an owner needs is some leeway to set color, brightness, and contrast to where he likes. Many times after a few days or weeks, they will "tone" the users controls back down and appreciate what calibration does.

I am fortunate in that my visual perception (after Cataract surgery) appears to be close to the 'Standard Observer'. After calibration most source material looks virtually perfect to me.

Just finished a Cal run of the 55LH90 with ChromaPure 2 Pro and the Chroma 5.
Used LG internal patterns for gray scale and the Duo patterns for color.

The Duo CMS is set to disabled so this is calibrated with only the LG settings.
Upon finishing the calibration I ran CalMan 4 as a check on any differences, nothing significant except for the CIE diagram where Calman shows fewer errors than ChromaPure

Attachment 1 is from ChromaPure, 3 and 4 are from CalMan.

Note:
The Duo is primarily used to clean up source material, S-VHS VCR tapes and my LaserDisc collection, and a number of cable SD programs, Encore channels come to mind, as well as a pattern generator.
As long as the LG calibrates so well without Duo participation I will leave the Duo CMS off for now.

 

Gray.pdf 95.3720703125k . file

 

LH90.pdf 193.95703125k . file

 

10-9-ld-on-BL34.pdf 144.5224609375k . file

I assume the Gray.pdf is the Before results? With the Duo patterns and calibrating the LG itself (Expert 2), you should have been able to almost get all the results, excepting 10 IRE and somewhat 20IRE, almost down to the 0% line. Usually I can get the 10 IRE to the 3% line, 20 IRE to the 2% line. I was wondering why the upsweep of the Blue at 100IRE?

All charts are after calibration.

As to the 100 IRE up sweep, stability issues. While calibrating using the ChromaPure Gamma module with continuous measurement there was noticeable variation of Delta E with each measurement. dE would swing from say .3 to 2.0 to 1.8 to .9 with each measurement. I am at a loss to explain this and the swings were especially wide at IRE100 and IRE10.

If I had reverted to manual measurement I could have selected one with a dE of .5 and the chart would have reflected that but what would this really say about the actual calibration.

BTW this calibration was at night with the only light coming from the laptop screen which faced away from the TV and was set fairly dim.

Calibration is always with ChromaPure and CalMan is used occasionally as a check. There are always discrepancies between the two packages.
Unlike your Enthusiast license my CalMan Home license does not allow interactive control.

I also had the 100IRE swings that were hard to pin down. Seemed to be less when I switched from Calman 3 to 4. Also virtually disappeared once I changed all my cables and the Yellow tinge was no longer present. I know you didn't have the tinge problem, but since I couldn't find where the Yellow tinge came from, other than thinking it was a bad connection somewhere. (Tested all the cables after and couldn't reproduce the tinge. Did find the one cable that bricked my 55LHX, then almost again when the repaired set was re-set back up. Fortunately I caught it in time and designated it the garbage can!) So you may want to try inserting and removing Each Cable End, in whatever piece of equipment, several times, and see if this stabilizes your reading. This also removed the Blue Spike I had at 90IRE.
Re the Enthusiast Licence - contact Spectracal and ask if they will give you a 30 Day trial licence to test whether you'll find it worth while to UpGrade. Also watch for Spectracal to have a special on, that when you buy a certain piece of equipment, you get a Free Enthuisiast Licence - this is how I got mine.

You might be interested in the new AVSHD MP4-preview pattern disc.
It now contains a ChromaPure pattern sequence as well as color patterns at 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% saturation to go with the Advanced CMS module in ChromaPure.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2278


I will pass on this for now, Tom has promised interactive control for the Duo with the next update to ChromaPure, I can wait.
You got the Enthusiast license by purchasing the AVFoundry VideoEqualizer as I recall.
SpectraCal now emailed me about the 3D version of that device but at that price the Duo for less money does so much more that no one would even consider the VideoEqualizer.
Had the Duo been available when you bought the VideoEqualizer you surely would have opted for the Duo. Well there is always Ebay or use the VideoEq with another TV.

Have never purchased the AVFoundry, only the iScan Duo. Got the licence with the 1200 Pattern generator. Don't like the Brightness and Contrast patterns on either. Would be nicer if they used something more along the line of the Picture Wizard or S & M Calibration Disc.
ChromaPure doesn't really support the LG LED/LCD HD sets. (Sony and Samsungs)

Guys, I just took delivery of my 55LH90. I want to tweak the picture as best as possible. How do I go about doing that? Keep in mind I'm a newbie; I don't own any calibration tools. I did download AVS 709 disc though and I do have a BluRay player.

Should I just input Chad's numbers and call it a day?

BTW, I have a March 2010 built date.

I seriously doubt that the LG is so different from the Sony/Samsung that you would ever see it on any program material.

Here is my latest experiment using ChromaPure from my Gateway NV59C laptop using the CP internal pattern generator. The laptop has an HDMI out connected to the Duo connected to the LG HDMI-1 set to expert 2. (Also has a BluRay reader)
As far as I can ascertain the Intel HD graphics adapter in the Gateway does not seem to contaminate the Color-space in any fashion. Here are the results.

What seems weird is that Magenta in the Advance CM CIE diagram is way out at 100% but looks correct in the basic CIE diagram.

CP seems to have no way to save the Advance CM CIE chart, so used screen capture to load it to 'Paint' and save it from there.

I did do some calibration but nothing serious, just wanted to experiment with the ChromaPure internal pattern generator. It works really well and totally automates the Advance CM.

 

internal.pdf 71.2001953125k . file

No, please don't! First off, those numbers weren't published or "authorized" by me. All they are are the numbers I happened to leave the review set at.
Second, each sample is different; I tried putting the same exact numbers from one 55LH90 into another and it was changed but barely improved.
Some things you can count on, though, are start with one of the ISF Expert modes. Based on my experience, brightness should be between 52-54 for a dark room, or between 54-58 for a bright room. Backlight should be left in the 30's for dark rooms and raised to the 50's or wherever you prefer if your room is bright. Contrast is normally OK at the default of 90.

Thanks Chad, I'll try your recommendations.

These settings were also done on a very early version of the 55LH90, and the 55LH90 has gone through various modifications since. Try the calibrated settings I posted on the Forum back a few pages ago. Also, on the Brightness, the 55LH90 makes a jump at 52. Check out the PQ at 52, then watch when you go to 53. We usually try to stay at 52. Colour at 42. Contrast, as ChadB mentioned at 90. Gamma on Low, unless you prefer the Medium or High. White Balance on Warm, and again, Medium or High if that's what you prefer.

One thing I definitely do not agree with is how you guys are doing your backlight. Any numbers I have put in and any of my own calibrations has never worked out with the backlight less than about 70-80. I don't know what you guys are seeing with that so low but I don't see it in any of my real world tests whatsoever. It always in every single instance makes the picture too dark to call it reference by any means. How are you supposed to realize real world photographs and such when your backlight doesn't allow you to produce natural sunlight and the bright sky? I guess if you cannot handle it for long periods it makes sense.

Anyway, I am having troubles. At the http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ site I am running into a problem with ANY numbers that I input into ISF. The problem is that there is ALWAYS banding on the gradient test and immediately when I switch to any other mode BUT THX the banding COMPLETELY DISAPPEARS. What the hell is going on with that? I can also say with fact that the ISF modes indeed wear off on each other. After inputing a 10 step calibration I immediately noticed a pinkish haze in the gradients that wore off on my other ISF calibration. Extremely weird to say the least. Anyway, would it be possible for anybody with a calibrated set to go to that site and test your ISF calibrations against the homegrown ones on this set. I will be inputting more of the sets I see on the set before I go back to my own or use natural! Yeah, you heard me right.

On my April 2010 build Natural is almost perfect. I have no idea why but it hardly takes any calibrating with the limited tool set you are allowed to match colors, or gamma, or whatever. The only problem I have in general is that Edge Enhancer is locked on and you have very limited color tools. Why and the hell would they lock edge enhancer on for all their homegrown inputs?

I would be grateful if anybody can check the lagom site out for me and report back details. My set is a truly beautiful one and was night and day from the one I switched back. There is no dirty screen, no pixel problems, nothing. The thing is beautiful in every sense but damn does it take a lot of computing to find the sweet spot.

These are for Monitor and PC testing. Not for TV viewing.
Putting your PC on the TV will generate a different viewing experience than Blu-ray, cable, satellite, etc type of viewing.
Put these downloads on a USB will have a tendency to be more in the Red Spectrum when viewed. (Will download and check) - LG wouldn't recognize the USB for some reason. Will try again later. Tried putting the USB stick in my Sony Blu-ray player and it wouldn't pull up the files either. Will burn onto a CD and see if I can get them that way.
Probably all of us, when we first got our sets, found THX locked in at 30, was too dark to view. Hence we went to Modes were we'd shoot up the Backlight to 50, 60 or 70 to get the Luminance we wanted. But as time goes on, we start to find it too Bright, and now start to drop back on where we have the Backlight set. On the LG 55LH90, I find 30 about right now. The 55LHX, still at 30 but, at times will drop down to 20 or lower.

I am using full RGB on the PS3 and the 10 IRE settings seem to work pretty good with TV also. My whites are actually very nice on games and I haven't tested blurays but in the past nothing has been wrong with my PS3 games and bluray being the same setting, Much better than I have had in 2 step and a bit better than natural setting also but still with the pesky banding in gradient testing. I drop as low as maybe 70 on the backlight and that is it. Mostly for games and film it is 70 to 80 without much variation. To get my proper whites I don't think I could go much lower than 60.

One thing I however cannot understand for the life of me is the color settings. Those settings are off quite a bit on my TV. But the whites and grayscale are excellent. I used your first IRE settings a few pages back so if you improve those I will take a look. Also, try and go to that lagom site please and see the discrepency in the banding. It is really strange how the factory natural setting is VERY close to perfect without calibration. A couple of the colors are off in the natural settings. As far as THX that is the worst calibration I have ever seen straight out of the factory. I wish I could delete it as it makes comparing my 4 settings a pain in the butt. As far as my color settings, which I have checked and rechecked at lagom, various other sites and wikipedia for accurate color analysis, I have am getting numbers so different it just seems strange. Of course I cannot stand Warm and take Medium on the white balance and also switch black level and gamma when not using RGB Full.

Still not sure I have actually got the colors down but they are as close to my PC monitor as I can hope for. Imo, there is very little room for variation in these CMS numbers (once they are calibrated) but I cannot seem to calibrate them perfectly by my eyes. Wide gamut really throws me off and switching back to normal, it was quite hard to find magenta and blue and green tints as well their brightness. These are accurate colors to my eyes as far as I can tell but you could have some variance depending on you own vision. It honestly must be some huge variation in sets and user vision to come up with such different numbers, though. Anyway, good luck on IRE. It looks pretty good to me at the moment. Much better than I did in 2 step. Crazy how close natural is to my expert, though.

I know this tv is ancient now, but I'm going to be getting a 55" LH90 in a few weeks. What are the weaknesses of this tv? I see it has good black levels, low input lag, good color accuracy, etc. Does this tv have issues with flashlighting and clouding?

Do you mean these settings you posted at #1282?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19186620

Once I tweak settings to my liking - how do I transfer them to THX Mode?
Thanks again for your assistance.

Do Not change the THX IRE and CMS settings. Just Expert 1 and 2. Insert the values posted in both. Change one of the Expert's Backlight settings Up for Daytime Viewing. You can run Picture Wizard which sets the values in Expert 1. Transfer these new settings to Expert 2 and THX. To compare, I usually subdue the Game and Sports to dull looking. Now switch between the Experts and THX. One of these Modes may look good for everything, or, certain Modes look good for certain Video inputs only. As always, these are on my set, my lighting and room colour schemes - from here tweak away!

I don't personally have a 55 inch but I have a 42 and its april 2010 build. From my experience try and find the latest build you can. Weaknesses according to what? Projectors of course are going to look much better but in all honesty there are very few LCD's that can match a 'good' LH90. I am sure you could nitpick here and there. You definitely need to be able to understand calibration and do it yourself or input some of the numbers here. Natural factory setting seems to be pretty good out of the box, though. Also, as said before some people have gotten some bad LH90s with dirty screens (uneven spray? or layer of uneven haze over the screen itself) and pixel problems. My old october build that I returned by mail was absolutely horrid. Otherwise there really are no distinct caveats when calibrated. Of course black levels and contrast could be even better but I am not complaining for the 880 I paid. Color accuracy when calibrated is absolutely splendid on my set.

I got an March 2010 build. I notice some slight pixelation if TruMotion was set low or high during fast scene. Is this what you're referring to? I don't like the "realistic" look of TruMotion anyways, have it off for now. Is there anything I can do to minimize pixelation?

No, as was discussed back earlier in the official LH90 posting, not this one, there were a couple batches of older model with some sort of horrendous screen problem on panning shots that has all been cleared up mostly. We called this dirty screen effect as it appeared to be from some sort of uneven anti reflection spray. A poster in here was complaining about this very same problem more than likely a couple pages back. It was absolutely unacceptable on my old model and was VERY apparent in hockey, or golf, or baseball when hard panned on like colors. There seems to be only the tiniest bit of this on my new set. Hardly noticeable except in extreme conditions. Anyway, the older set also had pixel problems and worse angle viewing performance. It was a clunker.

Anyway, P5browne, are you saying that I should not use these settings for bluray? I can output RGB on my PS3 if that would help but I don't understand. You made these settings for what again? Your PC. I thought you watched blurays on the set, too? Since you can only have one value in the ISF section I think this one suits me. I know bluray is native to YCbCr but I can switch this to RGB output in the PS3 and limited (16 to 235). Would that be something I should do or not. Do these setting not work with limited on PS3 very well. I currently use RGB Full and switch back to 'Limited' and YCbCr for blurays. What should I do. The settings do look fine I don't think they would be too off for blurays. After some reading I guess wide gamut is not needed though I do like some of the saturated tones. But you calibrate for sRGB right? That should be compatible with bluray, no?

Trumotion inherently produces some artifacts but I wouldn't use it anyway. I cannot stand it. I don't use the 24p film setting either as the judder to my eyes is ridiculous.

The address above http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ downloads were for PC to TV as far as I can see. Have not been able to run them on my set to see how they look. Didn't get anywhere with the USB Flashstick in either the LG itself, nor inputing into my Blu-ray player. Going to burn a DVD with them and see what comes from that. - Wouldn't burn!

Oh, now I understand. Indeed, I am using PC values in RGB FULL for most PS3 games and I don't think there should be a problem as Blurays are in the sRGB model and as long as I switch to limited and change gamma and black level on TV (which I do for blurays in my ISF profile expert 1) I think I should be fine. And as for YCbCr I think now that I read your display would convert the signal anyway to RGB if it is needed so I will leave it on Auto or YCbCr. Checking my TV my black levels and white levels are fine with limited or RGB Full so no problems I guess.

When you calibrated this was it for 16 to 235 levels? And that would be fine if I just changed the gamma and black levels if you did calibrate it for this, no, so as to remap 16 to 230 to Full values? That is what needs to be done for Limited to Full normally so I gather that is all I would have to do they both look identical to me when switched.

But the thing is none of that matters with the gradient testing. The gradient testing on ISF is ALWAYS slightly banded on that test no matter what I input in ANY of the fields. There is simply nothing that has fixed the banding and whenever I switch to natural setting or another setting besides THX the banding disappears. It doesn't matter whether I am in RGB FULL or Limited setting. And it really doesn't bother me as I don't see that slight banding in real world testing at all.