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Need speakers with BIG sound-stage

post #1 of 39
1/30/10 at 3:59pm
Thread Starter 
I need a pair of speakers that can either be placed very low, below 26" in height, or very wide apart, beyond 116" (9.66') apart. My screen is 116" wide and the bottom of the screen is 26" off the floor. I want to use only two speakers and need a very wide sound-stage from the speakers so I don't get a hole in the middle. This will be two channel sound only.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a pair of speakers costing below $6,000. each?
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post #2 of 39
1/30/10 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

I need a pair of speakers that can either be placed very low, below 26" in height, or very wide apart, beyond 116" (9.66') apart. My screen is 116" wide and the bottom of the screen is 26" off the floor. I want to use only two speakers and need a very wide sound-stage from the speakers so I don't get a hole in the middle. This will be two channel sound only.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a pair of speakers costing below $6,000. each?

If you can go to 26.5" you might check into the JTR T8's. Ask about them in the JTR thread.
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post #3 of 39
1/30/10 at 4:20pm
I'm guessing that you have a fairly large room with a screen that size. Danley has quite a few speakers that would fit your bill. All high efficiency and some very high efficiency (100 db+). Some of their stuff is just barely taller that your requirement. Here's a review from here on avs http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1126835
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post #4 of 39
1/30/10 at 5:07pm
Thread Starter 
What about speakers that can go on either side of the screen and still maintain center fill? Is a 9.66' wide screen size just too wide for two tower speakers to work?

The speakers I was actually thinking about using are the Definitive Audio Mythos ST SuperTowers. They look real good with great specs, but I have never heard them as there is no dealers in my area. Would they give me good sound centered a little over 10' apart? My room is 16' wide by 18' long, with couch seating at the back of the room (back wall 18' from the screen). The screen is 133" diagonal rigid rear projection.

The Mythos would look nice, are slender, and would not distract much from the screen. The other speaker I was considering is the Paradigm Signature S8 towers, or maybe two Paradigm Signature C5 center speakers under the screen on low stands with dual 12" subwoofers, probably from Ascend.

Comments?
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post #5 of 39
1/31/10 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 
bump
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post #6 of 39
1/31/10 at 11:56am
Do you have an AVR?

Are you looking for suggestions for a 5.1?

You say the couch is on the back wall, would you move it forward to get 7.1?

What is your full budget and what must it buy
- AVR yes/no
- sub(s)
- speakers

Your room is 15' wide and the screen is less than 10' so you have 2' 6" at least for speakers beside. Lots of room.
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post #7 of 39
1/31/10 at 11:58am
I really like the B&W 800 series speakers, you can get pretty high up the food chain with $6k per speaker.
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post #8 of 39
1/31/10 at 12:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

Do you have an AVR?

Are you looking for suggestions for a 5.1?

You say the couch is on the back wall, would you move it forward to get 7.1?

What is your full budget and what must it buy
- AVR yes/no
- sub(s)
- speakers

Your room is 15' wide and the screen is less than 10' so you have 2' 6" at least for speakers beside. Lots of room.

No, I want two channel sound only. I want to use a Audio Research two channel preamp and a Classe stereo power amp, and that is all except for a possible pair of powered subwoofers.
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post #9 of 39
1/31/10 at 12:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chashint View Post

I really like the B&W 800 series speakers, you can get pretty high up the food chain with $6k per speaker.

The B&W speakers I like in that line are 10k each I think, above my budget. I would want the diamond tweeters. I found a source for Revel center channel speakers I like for less than 6k and the Paradign centers look good. Both the Revel and Paradigm have beryllium tweeters. I do not like standard aluminum tweeters.
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post #10 of 39
1/31/10 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

I need a pair of speakers that can either be placed very low, below 26" in height, or very wide apart, beyond 116" (9.66') apart. My screen is 116" wide and the bottom of the screen is 26" off the floor. I want to use only two speakers and need a very wide sound-stage from the speakers so I don't get a hole in the middle. This will be two channel sound only.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a pair of speakers costing below $6,000. each?

Are you using subs or do you want these speakers to be able to handle down to 20hz? Also, do you have any requirements for size of the speakers if they are placed on the sides of the screen? You seem interested in thinner speakers so I need to ask if a speaker can be too big?

At 6K each there penty of choices. Off the top of my head I'd say to take a look at something from JTR, Seaton Sound, Danley Sound Labs or heck even Klipsch Jubilees if you plan on using subs. If no subs maybe some line sources.

Also, can I ask why you have decided to get such a large screen and go with only a 2 channel setup? Just curious.
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post #11 of 39
1/31/10 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

I need a pair of speakers that can either be placed very low, below 26" in height, or very wide apart, beyond 116" (9.66') apart. My screen is 116" wide and the bottom of the screen is 26" off the floor. I want to use only two speakers and need a very wide sound-stage from the speakers so I don't get a hole in the middle. This will be two channel sound only.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a pair of speakers costing below $6,000. each?

Too bad you have the 26" height restriction. Magnepan MG3.6 or MG20.1 planar speakers are sometimes criticized for a soundstage that's "too big" or bigger than natural. They might fit the bill if they weren't 6' and 6'6" tall respectively. And they're in your price range at $5,000 to $12,000 per pair. Oops, just reread your post and it's either a height or width restriction. Definitely check out the Maggies. They can handle a 10' spread with no problem. My MG3.6's sit about 9' apart measured from the center of the panels.

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_36
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_201

At the other end of the speaker size range, "mini-monitors" in general are acknowledged to be able to throw up a big soundstage. Totem Mani-2 Signatures are great sounding examples of the breed and they're well within your price range at $5,000 to $6,000 per pair.

http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...62/index8.html

26" will be below seated ear level will it not? I'd think you'd have trouble getting any speaker to image well if you're sitting 12 - 18" off axis from the tweeters.
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post #12 of 39
1/31/10 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

What about speakers that can go on either side of the screen and still maintain center fill? Is a 9.66' wide screen size just too wide for two tower speakers to work?

The speakers I was actually thinking about using are the Definitive Audio Mythos ST SuperTowers. They look real good with great specs, but I have never heard them as there is no dealers in my area. Would they give me good sound centered a little over 10' apart? My room is 16' wide by 18' long, with couch seating at the back of the room (back wall 18' from the screen). The screen is 133" diagonal rigid rear projection.

The Mythos would look nice, are slender, and would not distract much from the screen. The other speaker I was considering is the Paradigm Signature S8 towers, or maybe two Paradigm Signature C5 center speakers under the screen on low stands with dual 12" subwoofers, probably from Ascend.

Comments?

Considering how far back you are sitting, I don't think you will have any soundstage issues with high quality speakers 10 feet apart.

I sit about 8 feet from the plane my L&R speakers (ADS L1290) are on and the speakers are 6 feet apart. I have no issues with them filling the soundstage. So in proportion to listening distance, mine are even further apart than yours would be.
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post #13 of 39
1/31/10 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied View Post

Too bad you have the 26" height restriction. Magnepan MG3.6 or MG20.1 planar speakers are sometimes criticized for a soundstage that's "too big" or bigger than natural. They might fit the bill if they weren't 6' and 6'6" tall respectively. And they're in your price range.

26" will be below seated ear level will it not? I'd think you'd have trouble getting any speaker to image well if you're sitting 12 - 18" off axis from the tweeters.

If these fit to the side with enough room for proper positioning I like this option.

Ron
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post #14 of 39
1/31/10 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied View Post

Too bad you have the 26" height restriction. Magnepan MG3.6 or MG20.1 planar speakers are sometimes criticized for a soundstage that's "too big" or bigger than natural. They might fit the bill if they weren't 6' and 6'6" tall respectively. And they're in your price range.

26" will be below seated ear level will it not? I'd think you'd have trouble getting any speaker to image well if you're sitting 12 - 18" off axis from the tweeters.

If I read the OP's post correctly, speaker height isn't an issue if he can place them far enough apart (10ft)?

If I'm correct, I would second the Magnepan recommendation.
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post #15 of 39
1/31/10 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

No, I want two channel sound only. I want to use a Audio Research two channel preamp and a Classe stereo power amp, and that is all except for a possible pair of powered subwoofers.

I know it killed the cat, but I can't help my curious nature

You have a 116" screen; why do you not want full surround sound to enjoy your movies?

Most people who go 2.1 in their HT do it as a start because of budget - but you're planning to spend $10K, so budget isn't the issue. For your budget you can build an incredible 5.2 system that will provide exquisite 2.1(2) when you want.

Colour me confused
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post #16 of 39
1/31/10 at 2:19pm
at 18" listening distance you're going to want to go as wide as possible. But, you'll want to be careful about corner loading...
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post #17 of 39
1/31/10 at 3:15pm
Thread Starter 
"Considering how far back you are sitting, I don't think you will have any sound stage issues with high quality speakers 10 feet apart."

Now were getting somewhere!

I had a pair of Magneplanars back in the 1970s or 80s, I believe an MG1 or something like that. It had terrible horizontal beaming and no high end. The newer, better models with true ribbons tweeters have changed that no doubt. I have not heard the newer Magneplanar models outside of horrible in-store set-ups. If I could place MG3.6s to the sides of the 116" wide screen and not have them create a sonic hole in the center and visually distract too much from the screen, then that might be a good way to go. I would couple them with dual 12" subwoofers. I like the Ascend RYTHMIK F-12 SE 12" Servo Subwoofer. See:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...ubs/f12se.html -


I am not a fan of multi-channel sound. I do not like having sound coming at me from the sides and the back. I want an audiophile quality set-up to use for music as well as movies. Getting good stereo sound is expensive enough. Two channels can spread an image across one side of a large room if set-up properly. That is enough to support any movie. I like simpler solutions with fewer knobs to turn and less to go wrong.

These are the Revel Ultimate Voice2 loudspeakers I like and I can get at discount. They would look sharp under the screen and assure no hole in the middle as I can move them around.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=29

The Definitive Audio Mythos Super Towers would be the cheapest option. Their aluminum tweeters are coated with ceramic and the system has gotten good reviews from everyone. They do not need subwoofers and look fantastic.

I guess I will drive 70 miles to hear them, and if I don't like them get the Magneplanars or the Revels.

Thanks
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post #18 of 39
1/31/10 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

"Considering how far back you are sitting, I don't think you will have any sound stage issues with high quality speakers 10 feet apart."

Now were getting somewhere!

I had a pair of Magneplanars back in the 1970s or 80s, I believe an MG1 or something like that. It had terrible horizontal beaming and no high end. The newer, better models with true ribbons tweeters have changed that no doubt. I have not heard the newer Magneplanar models outside of horrible in-store set-ups. If I could place MG3.6s to the sides of the 116" wide screen and not have them create a sonic hole in the center and visually distract too much from the screen, then that might be a good way to go. I would couple them with dual 12" subwoofers. I like the Ascend RYTHMIK F-12 SE 12" Servo Subwoofer. See:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...ubs/f12se.html -


I am not a fan of multi-channel sound. I do not like having sound coming at me from the sides and the back. I want an audiophile quality set-up to use for music as well as movies. Getting good stereo sound is expensive enough. Two channels can spread an image across one side of a large room if set-up properly. That is enough to support any movie. I like simpler solutions with fewer knobs to turn and less to go wrong.

These are the Revel Ultimate Voice2 loudspeakers I like and I can get at discount. They would look sharp under the screen and assure no hole in the middle as I can move them around.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/product...asp?product=29

The Definitive Audio Mythos Super Towers would be the cheapest option. Their aluminum tweeters are coated with ceramic and the system has gotten good reviews from everyone. They do not need subwoofers and look fantastic.

I guess I will drive 70 miles to hear them, and if I don't like them get the Magneplanars or the Revels.

Thanks


Just an FYI. One of the things I like about my Maggie 3.6's is the fact that vertically there is no "off axis" position for all practical purposes. With a 50" ribbon line source that starts about a foot off the floor and continues on up to about 6 feet, unless you're Shaquille O'neal you can sit down or stand up with no perceptible change in response. And horizontal radiation is a near 180 degree pattern with the front and back out of phase waves cancelling at the sides and helping with boundary effects. So you can wander back and forth without drastic changes in response as well. Magnepan recommends no toe in but I give the panels maybe about 10 degrees of toe in and it works just fine.

BTW no need to hang your head in shame over the choice of a 2 channel system as some people have implied. I seldom use my 7.1 system when listening to 2 channel music. The Maggies will give you a pretty good illusion of depth if not sound originating from behind you.
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post #19 of 39
1/31/10 at 4:04pm
I thnk the Maggies are a great idea too. There's no way you are going to have a sonic hole at that distance. Many experts state the speakers should be the same distance from each other as they are from the listening position, angled inwards.
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post #20 of 39
1/31/10 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnefied View Post

BTW no need to hang your head in shame over the choice of a 2 channel system as some people have implied.

I wasn't imply shame, I was simply expressing my confusion...

...I completely understand wanting the best 2 channel system possible for music (although I have become a fan of 5.1 SACDs)

...I just find it confusing to have a huge movie screen and not wanting to listen to movies the way they were meant - with full surround sound.

But to each their own.

Quote:
I seldom use my 7.1 system when listening to 2 channel music.

But I bet you always use it when you watch a Blu-ray or a standard DVD in DTS5.1 or DD5.1

Quote:
The Maggies will give you a pretty good illusion of depth if not sound originating from behind you.

And here I humbly defer to the rest of you as you are discussing speakers that each cost more than my 5.1 + AVR + TV
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post #21 of 39
1/31/10 at 4:40pm
If the mythos dealer carries the bipolar line, audition them. Bipolars are known for throwing a wide soundstage. I have had bipolars from them (currently the 7001's) for 10+ years now and am still verry happy with them.

http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-lo...dspeakers.html
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post #22 of 39
1/31/10 at 4:43pm
Swan
F2.2 Below



Swan
M6 Below




Now in the event you can triple your budget these will do the job for sure 100%
Swan 2.3B Below


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post #23 of 39
1/31/10 at 5:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

I wasn't imply shame, I was simply expressing my confusion...

OK, sorry I was being dramatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

...I completely understand wanting the best 2 channel system possible for music (although I have become a fan of 5.1 SACDs)

Me too! My wife bought me an Oppo BDP-83SE for Christmas. I've got a small collection of SACD's and DVDA's. I just wish there was more music out there in these formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

...I just find it confusing to have a huge movie screen and not wanting to listen to movies the way they were meant - with full surround sound.

But to each their own.

For whatever reason, this guy just wants 2 channel sound for now. He can still enjoy a drama or comedy without surround sound. He will miss out on the F15's screaming over his head on the way to Baghdad though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

But I bet you always use it when you watch a Blu-ray or a standard DVD in DTS5.1 or DD5.1

Yes, I don't think I've ever watched a movie in 2 channel mode. Not that it would be horrible. And actually, I always matrix in the rears for 7.1 even if it's a 5 channel mix with movies or music. For 2 channel recordings I have Dolby ProLogicIIx, DTS Neo:6, and Lexicon Logic 7 to choose from but I often just fall back to plain old 2 channel because the matrix processing of additional unintended channels can do some funky stuff to some recordings.
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post #24 of 39
1/31/10 at 6:05pm
Thread Starter 
The Swans do look nice, but too costly for me and too heavy.

Why is it the Chinese are so good at speaker design, but the Japanese stink at it? China is now the speaker capitol of the world, and even most high-end British speakers are made there. I think and hope Magneplanars are still made in the USA.
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post #25 of 39
1/31/10 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

The Swans do look nice, but too costly for me and too heavy.

Why is it the Chinese are so good at speaker design, but the Japanese stink at it? China is now the speaker capitol of the world, and even most high-end British speakers are made there. I think and hope Magneplanars are still made in the USA.

Actually, the Chinese seem to be excellent speaker manufacturers, the design appears to be done elsewhere.

Japan actually has some excellent speaker design, consider the Pioneer S-1EX (really, consider them, they are in your price range,) here is a review: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...sex/index.html

Maggies are still made in the U.S., as are the Revels you are considering, I think you would be better off with Revel Towers to the sides rather than low center channels btw.

Ron
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post #26 of 39
1/31/10 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldoCombs View Post

Actually, the Chinese seem to be excellent speaker manufacturers, the design appears to be done elsewhere.

Japan actually has some excellent speaker design, consider the Pioneer S-1EX (really, consider them, they are in your price range,) here is a review: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...sex/index.html

Maggies are still made in the U.S., as are the Revels you are considering, I think you would be better off with Revel Towers to the sides rather than low center channels btw.

Ron

Well, I confess that I'm one of the people referred to in the Stereophile article who is prejudiced against any speaker wearing the Pioneer label. I've always considered Pioneer mid-fi crap because frankly that's where they've positioned most of their product over the past three decades. I agree with the author that the execs at Pioneer would have done well to distance a really excellent speaker line from their mass market brand.

In college (late 70's), one of the speakers I owned was a pair of Pioneer HPM 100's. They were a large 4 way box design a la Advents of the time but front ported (bass reflex) rather than acoustic susension and they employed an HPM (High Polymer Molecular) tweeter which was marketing code for a curved plastic film in a metal frame that was excited somewhat like an electrostatic membrane. They sucked! Once I began listening to the ADS L810's, B&W's, Kef's, Roger's, and Snell's of the day, I realized just how bad they really were. Hell, even low end Celestions and Wharfdales blew the Pioneers away. I've never given Japanese speakers an even shake since.

And yes, all Maggies still come from White Bear Lake, Minnesota. As far as I know, our government has not ceded that to the Chinese to satisfy our massive national debt the Chinese continue to underwrite.
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post #27 of 39
1/31/10 at 7:55pm
Thread Starter 
Andrew Jones. a former KEF employee, designed both the TAD and Pioneer branded speakers, so they are really a British design. Their 35mm diameter beryllium-dome tweeters is fascinating technology. The large surface area should give it a really smooth sound. That is a big reason Magneplanars and Quad electrostatic speakers sound so smooth,...large surface area.

My pet project is trying to get a Chinese company, or any company, to produce an affordable version of the Manger moving coil driven planar driver, which has a large surface area, like a dinner plate.

See: http://www.manger-audio.co.uk/manger-speakers.htm

The US Manger distributor is selling the raw Manger drivers for $1,400. each! What a ripp-off! They are hand made in Germany. I believe they could be made for a fraction of the cost with high stiffness plastics and a better motor system. Wisdom Audio has a new moving coil motor system that when applied to 1" dome tweeters could allow them to be crossed over at 1,000 Hz or lower, and when applied to woofers would allow one woofer to do the work of 2 or 3 woofers. If applied to a Manger it could be out-of-sight great. I think they use a transformer to create a high intensity field around the voice coil and induce it to move without having a wire attached to the voice coil itself. I have written a half dozen companies about this and got positive interest from a Taipei based ribbon loudspeaker manufacturer. I think the Manger patient is long expired as it is 1970s technology.

For home builders cheap Mangers would make speaker design very easy. The Mangers are crossed over at 150Hz and produce a mellow point source that goes out to 30,000 Hz. You can mate them with dual 10" woofers or one 12" woofer for a full range design. They would make great wall speakers as well.

I suppose I could build my own speakers using Mangers, but I resist spending $1,400. for just one driver. They should cost $400. or less each, not $1,400. each.



Look at the ridiculous prices for audio equipment at the US dealers website...
http://www.tmhaudio.com/pricing.htm

$2,800 for an interconnect? That is SICK. I do not want to do business with that guy. $49,000 for a preamp? Humm... Who buys that stuff?
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post #28 of 39
1/31/10 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

Look at the ridiculous prices for audio equipment at the US dealers website...
http://www.tmhaudio.com/pricing.htm

$2,800 for an interconnect? That is SICK. I do not want to do business with that guy. $49,000 for a preamp? Humm... Who buys that stuff?

No wonder he can afford to just sit there on the dock all day long.

Ron
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post #29 of 39
1/31/10 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

$2,800 for an interconnect? That is SICK. I do not want to do business with that guy. $49,000 for a preamp? Humm... Who buys that stuff?

There are interconnects that go up to 15K

Guys like this below buy this stuff:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...vol&1115953260

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...slt&1234403235

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...slt&1214260813

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...slt&1223699331

want to see more, click below ans brouse....

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1&ctg
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post #30 of 39
1/31/10 at 8:37pm
Hah, look at the rising peak to 30KHz on the Pioneer be tweeters. I wonder if they get their beryllium from the same source as Usher.
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