My new ( used ) Pioneer CLD-3070 Laserdisc Player

Ah the allure of the big 12" discs. I still have my Pioneer Elite CLD-99 and still watch from time to time from my collection of over 200 discs. Your best friend is ebay right now. Just punch in laser discs and have fun shopping. Prices are low to reasonable (.99-20.00 for most) for laser discs. Of course you may pay a bit more for rare discs, many of the Godzilla discs and any of the Criterion discs since they are considered the platinum level for laser discs.

I have a DVL-919 that I purchased in 1999 when I was worried that DVD would make LD players hard to find. I recently had this serviced and it performs perfectly after eleven-years of use. I currently have seven working players. A CLD-D406 , two CLD-D704's an Elite CLD-97, Elite CLD-99, a DVL-700 dvd/LD combo and of course the 919. My LD collection is around 2000 titles from CAV DiscoVision to some of the last discs produced in the U.S. Nice to hear from others who still enjoy their shiny 12-inch platters! Remember that the component output on the 919 only works with DVD's, not LaserDiscs if you decide to acquire one.

Not to my knowledge.
LD is, by nature, a composite format- meaning that the image date itself is contained in the composite domain- luma being carried on the same signal as chroma.
For any LD player to output a component signal, it would have to have have an excellent comb-filter to separate the luma and chroma. It would then have to digitize the analog data to "analyze" it (and perform any other noise reduction, etc that the player might perform) and then convert the signal back to analog YPbPr for output.
Quality would like be far better just outputting the composite signal to an outboard scaler (or a receiver with a really good integrated comb-filter/scaler) and letting it do all the work.

Criterion made its name back in the days of LaserDiscs among movie buffs because they released a lot of hard to find great films of the past with excellent picture quality for the time. They also pioneered the concept of supplemental features and audio commentaries that we now take for granted on DVD and Blu-ray. The first-ever audio commentary was on the Criterion laserdisc release of King Kong (1933).

P.S. If you're getting into collecting LDs, you might enjoy the LaserDisc Database site www.lddb.com where you can keep track of your collection, wishlists, etc. buy from other users on the site.

The experts around here (I'm not one) all say that we should forget about our S-Video jacks on the LD player since the comb filters on modern TVs do a better job of it. They recommend just sending the composite video cable direct to your TV.

Yes its all about using which device has the better comb filter, the player or the TV. Probably the newer one.

Ever heard of the Criterion Collection on DVD? Same company. They started with laserdiscs.

http://www.criterion.com/

The Criterion Collection featured CAV (full feature) format editions at a time when these were quite rare. Before the advent of players with digital effects (still frame and slow-motion) on CLV discs this was very desirable for many collectors. These expensive box sets typically went for well over $100 and for me were not an impulse buy! I still treasure my copies of 2001 and Citizen Kane as a momento of an exciting time in home theater history. Let me second Victor Bergmans' recommendation of http://www.lddb.com/ as a great site to share our love of LD with others -support this great resource.

I picked up a bunch of LDs today at GW for 49 cents each and played them on my old Pioneer LD-870. The picture's not great on a 54" 1080p Panny Plasma via composite but the sound is really pretty good. Plenty of clean deep bass using the analog outs.

I have a Mitsubishi demo, Video Sketches, that looks MUCH better than any of my movie discs. In LA in the late eighties/early nineties there was a guy with a company called Dial-a-Disc. He would set up a disc locking mechanism near your house, like in your garage. After he installed this hardware and lock, you would just dial him up and tell his machine which disc you wanted to rent. That night he would drive to your house and lock the disc up on your device. The next morning you go out with your key unlock the disc and watch it. When you were done viewing, you wrote a check for the rental fee, put the check and the disc back into the special vinyl carrier with a hole in the middle for the locking mechanism, go back out to your garage and lock it up. He picks it up that night and leaves your next disc if you have one on order. Remind you of anything?

Except, many times, the compositive video outputs are simply the reblended luminance and chrominance signals from the video processing features available on some LD player models. In this case, it's better to use the S-Video output to avoid more than one comb filter in the video chain, ie. disc (comp) --> LD comb (Y/C) --> vid processor (Y/C) --> S-Vid out --> comp out --> TV comb (Y/C). Yeah, the comb filter in the LD player is older than the one in the new plasma TV but it's worse to have two comb filters in the chain regardless of their age and/or technology.

Years ago, I modified my Pioneer Elite CLD-97 (The King!) for a direct composite output straight off the disc to a BNC connector. No internal video processing or comb filters, just an external time-base corrector (TBC) and a Faroudja LD-200 line doubler (later a VP401 line quadrupler/video processor). This was more than a pain but the results were stellar on an old beater Barco 8" CRT projector. Sadly, that player has died and while I have the service manual, I have no motivation to resurrect it. My Elite CLD-59 is finicky (ie. intermittent clamping errors) but still runs for when I get the urge to watch one of the few LDs I've not since replaced with DVDs.

Actually, deriving the two color difference signals (ie. PrPb, CrCb, etc.) from the chrominance is not that difficult and can be done in the analog domain. But why would anyone want to when it would not result in a better picture quality? Component outputs made such a difference with DVD (and BD, HD-DVD, digital cable, etc.) because the luminance and chrominance are stored separately which completely eliminates the need for any comb filters in the video chain (which is where a majority of picture problems begin).


Exactly my train of thought when I modified my CLD-97. There once was a man named Yves Faroudja who ruled the video world. He was a very good man.

This is the only lasting aspect of LD's superiority over DVD: sound quality. In many cases, the Dolby Surround encoded PCM tracks are vastly richer and cleaner than the compressed soundtracks on DVD's Dolby Digital. Also, DTS bitrates were definitely higher on LD than DVD as direct comparison will show most definitely. I really regret selling my DTS LD collection in a moment of weakness some years ago. Eric Clapton's Unplugged is still the most-striking comparison of the available DTS soundtracks to date, IMHO.


Sort of a primitive RedBox (or more like Netflix?) for the LD video crowd, eh? This sounds like too much "windshield time" involved to have been profitable or at least sustainable. Ah, the hurly-burly days of home video when LD, line doublers and CRT projectors were the schit.

A (reluctant) second on eBay for LDs. (I don't want the competition. ) I've been able to recently find some of my "holy grails" from days gone by for ridiculously low prices. Thinking back to what I paid for some Criterion titles (most ever was $150 for a still-sealed copy of the Spartacus CAV box 6+ years ago), I'm astounded how easily I splashed out the cash for the latest-and-greatest of this film or that. Upgrades and "double dipping" were standard fare to get cleaner video transfers and the reviews were ultra-detailed in the differences between older and newer versions. There's lots of box sets on eBay right now with beautiful artwork, detailed booklets and even some with movie posters, lobby cards, etc.. Much like the migration away from LPs, the kids today with their MP3s don't know the album artwork they're missing!

The other major benefit of CAV (constant angular velocity) over CLV (constant linear velocity) that some may not realize is an increasing signal-to-noise (S/N) ratio as the side plays on. With CAV, each video line takes 1/2 revolution of the disc and the RPM is constant. As the head moves from the inside to the outside of the disc, the linear distance per revolution increases. As the distance increases to store the same video lines, the effective S/N ratio increases. With some titles, it was actually possible to see the picture quality improve slightly (ie. less dirt in the chroma) as the side played on.


Everyone who was into LD back in the day had their own "Criterion list" which more often than not included these two titles. They're not only great films but they represent Criterion's utmost potential for video transfer quality and complete package presentation. I still have both of mine in my dwindling LD collection. Sadly, I wish I had my DTS LDs back. (Add LDs to the "Never Sell List" already including motorbikes, guns, guitars... )

As others have said it really depends on the player. Many players, just about all of them actually, do a A/D to composite mode for TBC and DNR and then cheap mix of the after D/A of the Y and C parts back to composite. Now the CLD-97 actually recombines in the digital domain and has a seperate D/A for composite. The entry model players usually don't have the digital section so they are best with composite.

Still many TVs/Monitors perform special processing with the composite signal and it looks better than a Y/C input.

So you never know which is best. I've always found composite the best with Pioneer TVs/Monitors.

Kurtis

The real reason S/N looks better on CAV recorder LDs is that the previous and next frames are in sync. By this I mean if the pickup get data from an adjacent track mixed into the desired signal usually the data sits pretty close on top of each other except for the movement deltas. When you play a CLV LD the adjacent track is completely out of sync so you mix the desired picture with one maybe a few frames away and its picture begins and ends half way or some other interval in the desired picture.

Having trouble explaining this but with CAV when you place the same picture on top of itself it still looks acceptable. Now for CLV slide the top picture so it is one half off the bottom picture. How good does the section look where the two are mixing. Lots of noise.

When a player is properly adjusted it minimizes the reading of the adjacent track and the CLV picture noise can be lowered to the best possible for that particular player. It's a shame the number of players I get to work on that are not aligned for peak performance. Some are fine and some have crosstalk.

Kurtis

Hi, Kurtis. Yeah, you're absolutely right. While the technical specs allow for a 2-3 dB increase in S/N with CAV, it's really the sync and crosstalk that contribute more to the perceived picture quality. I was over simplifiying (and blatantly ignoring the very nature of the storage methods between CAV vs. CLV). Thanks for the clarification.

It's been some time since we PM'ed about the mighty Pioneer Elite CLD-97. (Last time, I believe we talked about permanently turning off the DNR or swapping the logic so the default on is actually off.) This thread made me drag my stuff out again last night and I even cracked the service manual to possibly get the old girl running again. I dunno, she's way messed up, won't even register discs... The VP401 still powers up though the old Barco projector is long gone so I've got nothing to connect it to (not even an old analog computer monitor). Don't know if my Optoma HD72 would like the 31.5 kHz horizontal scan rate via the DVI connection.

I have been using my CLD-97 with a Faroudja NRS at 540p component output. Have not tried it on my PRO-151 Plasma yet.

I have kind of told my wife that I would sell my LD player and my discs. I have decided I just can't do it. I have the Star Wars "faces" edition which is the best non-special edition LD's available.

I was never setup for AC-3, but I really enjoy my DTS LD's! From one of my favorite movies, "The Game", to "Apollo 13", and "jurassic Park"

By far my crown jewel is my Special Edition of "Amadeus" One of a limited edition of 10,000 pressings, recorded from an HD transfer and included a amazing "coffee table-like book and a 2 CD sound track that is considered much higher quality than the normal soundtrack .It retailed, at the time for $160! I picked it up for $20 on ebay.

Hi Kurtis. Optoma just confirmed for me that the HD72 will handle the output from my LD-200 doubler via the DVI connection. He's checking on the maximum horizontal scan rate to see if the VP401 quadrupler can also be used. It's a shame they don't put the analog scan rates (rather than just the recommended resolutions) in the manual for VGA users but I guess in the days of digital video, it's to be expected. Will probably try this tonight with my troubled CLD-59 driving the LD-200. Fortunately it has a standard VGA connector along with the BNC outputs so cabling won't be too difficult.

I cracked open the CLD-97 and was reviewing my direct composite out (and AC-3/RF) mod and had a quick question for you: I basically tapped the composite video where it splits to feed the TBC and loops back into the video processor IC (for what looks to be sync shaping/stretching based on the two signals back from the TBC). I figured this would be a more "raw" video signal than the one that feeds the A/D after the video processor. Do you agree or should I have used the one feeding the A/D?

BTW, my external TBC is dead. Hauled that out too but it doesn't power up anymore. I seem to remember that it developed this fault just before I put it all away 4+ years ago. Any experience with those el-cheapo consumer models in the small, plastic cases? I want BNC connectors in and out so I might just troll ePay for a beater rack-mount unit.

Kurtis, do you think the CLD-97 recombines the Y and C in the digital domain to drive the composite D/A or is the composite out a "digital mirror" of the A/D stage? I suppose since the TBC is done in the digital domain it must be the former rather than the latter, otherwise the composite out would not be corrected. (Is the loop-back through the video processor IC only for sync shaping/stretching and not for the overall timing of the signal which is done by the TBC via the video memory?)

In either case, by using the "native" composite out there will be two comb filters in the video chain: the one in the player (which is unavoidable) and the one in the display device. I would rather use the S-video output and have a single, older comb filter (ie. 2D 3-line) in the chain than to have two because even if the display has a newer one, the old one is still there and will be the major contributor to PQ problems.

At one time, I was going to buy a CLD-99 with the better 3D 3-line comb filter but wisely opted to buy the (used) line doubler instead which has a pretty decent 3D comb filter too. Eliminating the player's comb filter in favor of the line doubler's was the whole reason I modded my '97 for direct composite out. (The VP401's comb filter was even better though some of that could have been the better processing afterwards.)


I wish my '97 still ran because I could try this with my Optoma HD72 projector or my cheapie plasma TV. Either must have a better comb filter/processing than my LD players. I never modded my '59 for direct comp otherwise I could try it too. The '59 driving the HD72 via the S-video output produces a clean, crisp picture that is very acceptable (even better than what I remember with the Barco).

Had a question and was wondering can a laser disc picture be upconverted successfully or are their limitations or is it even worth it? I have my CLD-99 hooked up to my new Onkyo 5507 pre/pro and can set it to ouput whatever I want but wasn't sure what would happen if I tried this with a disc. There are so many ways to tweak PQ with the Onkyo I thought it might be fun to try and see how good I could make things look on my 65" Panny plasma.

Laserdisc is a normal NTSC signal. The limitation is how good the upconverter is.