First HDTV - $700 Budget

it might help to mention what size you're looking for too.

if your going to be gaming heavily take a look at panasonics

i'd recommend the 32 or 37" S1 panny

they are the best sets today for gaming due to their low input lag and the 37" can be had for under your budget

any other brand will likely have more input lag and be worse for gaming but can be better for movies etc.

LG have been known to be as good as panasonic's for gaming but in the past 6 months they have started using different LCD panel types (VA rather than IPS) and their input lag has gone up to a level that meets samsung,sony etc. due to using the same VA panel types as them

so basically its a gamble with LG now

it is worth noting however that unless you are either very sensitive to input lag or play games that are sensitive to it like FPS games, Fighting games (street fighter) or guitar hero games that do not have a compensation built in for lag (newest rock band/guitar hero games have this) the low level of input lag that most major brand TV's have in game mode, around 30-60ms lag is not significant enough to impact other games for the most part

you never know it could very well be input lag

older LG models have use IPS panels so its likely you would not notice input lag

their current 60hz models (LH30) are now using VA panels and have lag like every other major brand TV

There higher end sets likely still use IPS and may be good for gaming but nobody has come forward with test results showing they are so who knows

VA are cheaper because they are made by more companies in TV sizes and cheaper overall to manufacture

VA is also often used on TV's because they generally offer higher static contrast ratios compared to IPS but the latest gen IPS are very good in the respect as well

to put it into perspective here are the major manufactures of TV LCD panels

xVA panels(PVA and MVA as well as sharps ASV and new UV2A are variations of VA)

Sharp Sharp TV's and some Sony use them (new high end's mostly and the 65")

Samsung/Sony (S-LCD - a jointly owned company) found in Sony and Samsung TV's

AU Optronics found in sony, samsung and many other brand TV's

Chi Mei Optronics found in sony, samsung and many other brand TV's

IPS Panels

IPS-Alpha (panasonic) ONLY found in panasonics

LG-Phillips Display AFAIK only found in LG, Phillips made LCDs (phillips no longer makes LCD's for the north american market they are all made in china by Funai now) possibly Vizio uses some of their Panels in their TV's signs point to this due to their use of the 47" size LCD that is ONLY made by LG

What about Vizio? You can do pretty good for pretty cheap. Don't all the xvt model us IPS panels?

You can get a 37" for well under your budget.

its a gamble with vizio

nobody knows for sure at least i've yet to see anyone state that they tested a vizio and it was nearly lag free

the panny 37 S1 is under his budget by quite a bit even at sears but its getting hard to find them at sears at least for me locally now ( discontinued to make way for new models coming out soon)

Outsourcing, same reason Samsung does it, they can't produce as many panels as needed and it keeps their profit margins larger to sell half/all the TVs they make in certain lines with outsourced panels that meet "specs".

Are there any models in this price range and size (32" - 42") that include Picture in Picture?

My intention isn't to hijack this thread at all, I'm just in a situation almost identical to the OP and this thread appears to be fairly active. To me, contributing to an existing thread makes more sense than creating a new one. It's also a great way to avoid an angry mob of people asking if I know what the "Search" feature is and/or how to use it.

I need to find a 32" set to serve as a secondary HDTV. Like the OP, it'll be used mainly for gaming and watching HD movies. Endless searching, countless hours of maniacal reading, and bouncing from forum to forum has made one thing clear to me above all else; the Panasonic TC-L32S1 is the set of choice in the 32 arena. Owners write about it with a sense of pride that leaves me teary-eyed. I've searched high and low. This opinion has been surprisingly uniform no matter where I look. Why haven't I pulled the trigger and joined the legion of L32S1-fanboys? Well, because there is one issue that still concerns me; the L32S1's 60hz refresh rate.

The Panasonic TC-L32G1 appears to have the same fiercely loyal following as the TC-L32S1, but has a 120hz refresh rate and a slightly higher price tag. Price increase aside, is there any particular reason why the amount of praise for the L32G1 doesn't quite seem to match that of the L32S1? I assumed the G1 would be the preferred set, considering its improvements. Then again, I could be off on this observation and the two models are equally popular. This final guess is the last of my rambling. Perhaps the majority simply doesn't think that the G1's 120hz refresh rate translates into enough of an improvement over the S1 to justify the price difference.

Any comments on the OP issue of input lag and gaming in this size range, insight/experiences/opinions on the subject of 60hz vs 120hz at 32, an answer to the PiP @ 32" question, or anything else related to this madness would be greatly appreciated.

I need to make a move soon, lest this madness become permanent.

I've settled on the S1 or G1 as well, but at 37". Unless the G1's 120 Hz adds appreciably to input lag, the take home price seems to be close enough that the G1 would be the way to go. But I too would like to hear what others have to say about it.

well the S1 is at least sold by B&M stores

the G1 is pretty much non existent, you can really only find it on the net for sale and not many of them are around


no, it should not increase the input lag unless you turn on motion pro plus (the motion enhancer)

I've debated the idea of getting a 37 G1 but what it comes down to for me is if when i get my cash (should be getting it the end of next week) if the local sears still has any 37" S1's i will buy it just because i hate to wait and like to have an easy option to return it if there is something wrong with the set

if they are sold out by then and they may very well be because a few weeks ago 2 stores out of 8 had them and only 10 in total were in stock between the 2 stores and today only one store still has them and is down to 3 in stock I will probably bite the bullet and buy a 37" G1 from amazon for about 100 more but in the end with no tax only 20-30 more than i would have paid locally for the S1

the up coming LED edge lit 37" 120hz model looks to be nice as well and should be a good performer but i'm sure when it first comes out its going to carry a hefty premium that is not worth it imo though maybe panasonic improved the motion picture pro on it (its version 4 vs 3 on the G1)

i've heard mixed reviews about how the MPP 3 works on the G1 i've read people that say they love it and people that say it hardly does anything so who knows

For $700 I'd grab a 60hz 42" set from any of the following:

Samsung
Sony
LG
Panasonic
Sharp.

I'd do the 42LG, it's the clear winner in bang for the $$$. I picked up a 42LH20 on sale at Newegg for $449, love the set Lag wise I dunno (I don't game), I just wanted a large name brand screen for cheap. My viewing distance is about 12', I would have gone with a bigger set but budget wouldn't allow it.

To do the 37LH30" LG makes no sense when you can get a 42" for $9 more. Spending MORE on a 32/37" than a 42" of the same brand doesn't make sense unless you are using at computer monitor distances. A 42" just dwarfs a 32", 32" sets are suitable for low budgets or short viewing distance. Spending the extra $160 over TC-L32S1 for 70% more screen area is a no brainer.

LH30's are currently high lag TV's (30+ms)

if its level of lag is ok with you than a sony or samsung will perform just as well

LH40 maybe a better gamble because i've yet to hear they have VA panels in them now but then again i never heard if they had IPS either so there you go

it is unnoticeable to most people

sensitive gamers and most of all gamers that play FPS games online are impacted the most because there is no working around the delay because its added right on top of your internet lag

say your average ping on a server is 60-80ms (pretty typical for broadband) now when you playing on a display that delays the picture shown by 30-45ms your ping or response time in the game has skyrocketed to 90-125 ms range and most people who have played FPS games online for awhile will tell you that its simply not acceptable because your dead before you even attempt to shoot the other guy with a 60ms ping and no laggy TV

So we're talking about a 0.03 second lag time right?

yep 0.030 - 0.045 typically for most LCD TV's in game modes, I'm not arguing that its too much for most people because its not.

most people cannot notice this small amount of lag, its equivalent to the amount of lag you would have on the internet when accessing a server within a couple hundred mile radius of your location or in other words playing on a game server that is local to you, your ping would be about 20-30ms and that is very fast and good

the problem arises when you want to play on other servers outside of your area (and this will be a great majority all of the time) and your ping will range from 50-100+ ms depending on a lot of variables at that point like how many hops to the server, if there's any network problems in between. how good/crappy their ISP is etc. etc.

the problem is by having a display that automatically extends your response time but that amount brings many servers that will be very playable at we'll say 60ms into the disadvantaged and often noticeable lag of 90+ ms lag

when your on a sever and everyone's around 40-60 ms ping just like you for the most part but you have a display with 30+ ms input lag your now at an extreme disadvantage. it messes up your timing with how far you must lead targets your shooting at as well as keeps you from actually seeing the enemy before they see you and yes online FPS games can be that fast paced that it will make or break your performance against other players

these reasons are why the PC gaming market raged against the LCD monitor manufactures when they came out with VA LCD's at near TN prices touting TN response time with a much better picture. they got the picture part right but they failed to realize that input lag caused by pixel response time compensation that was needed to keep VA panels from smearing due to poor natural response times they still suffer from today made them terrible for PC gaming because esp at the time (2002 ish) the vast majority and still a great majority of PC gamers play FPS games online and can tell when they go from a fast TN monitor to a laggy VA monitor right away. its clearly apparent to them because they are used to the near instantaneous response time of their old monitors.

because of this VA failed in the PC market because graphic professionals recognize that VA is inferior in color reproduction to IPS and most of all high end CRT monitors that are still used today for that sort of work so they simply had no place. the mainstream market has been and will always be pretty happy with using TN panels because they are super cheap, reliable and with current models have good enough color reproduction in most panels that its not a visible problem to them

by the way while i've taken this post this far i might as well explain one last thing about input lag and its primary non-reversible cause in todays VA TV's

Real Time Compensation or RTC for short is a method where the Panel's TCON actually takes and buffers a few frames (minimum 2 frames for 60hz LCD or 32ms time wise) and it then analyzes the frames so it can know ahead of time what pixels and where on the display need to be over-driven in order to basically force the pixels that will be changing in order to have them change state just enough without overshooting their target position. if these panels did not use this method you would see visible smearing on the screen because the pixels have a natural G2G response time in excess of 20ms in many common transitions

TN and IPS do not require this because they have good natural pixel response times

in the early days LCD monitor manufactures actually used overdrive on TN panels to drive response times down to 1ms but the problem was not input lag but they did not buffer the image signal and adjust for what was changing and simply applied the method to everything and it created a whole slew of visual glitches on the screen that were very unsightly like inverse ghosting and blank trails left behind fast moving objects

Try a Vizio.

I've been playing on my 42" Vizio for several years no problems. I'm currently playing COD MW2 and no lag issues that I can tell.

Keep it simple. Try it and if its not up to your standards return it.

your absolutely right, if it lags too much for you, you will notice it, if it does not then who cares