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Max's Dual Dayton 15 LLT / Sonosub Build Thread

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
It is finally time!
I have been reading, researching, and realizing that I need to build myself a sub (or subs). After giving it quite a bit of thought I had elimiated all of the other options I have seen so far; standard sealed or ported boxes, IB, and even the horn subs. I want to go with an LLT / Sonosub build.
So two weeks ago I pulled the trigger on a pair of Dayton reference 15's
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-468

I have read and seen many many builds on sono's and Decided to do a pair of ported sono's in a 24 inch tube. My original plan was for some ED 18's but cost got in the way of that. Either way I will be happy with the Dayton drivers (I hope)

This thread will be for my build and will include (hopefully) lots of pictures, and after I get it all set up some freq response graphs from REW.

I know I will have questions and I hope you guys can help me with them if you are not too caught up in this horn "craze" as I call it.

Now, Pictures, and documentation to follow.

Thanks,

Maxwell

Things to do:
Drivers / Done
Wood and Sonotube / Done
Cutouts for drivers and port / Done
Glue end caps together
Paint and finish end caps
Mount end caps inside of tube
Mount driver
post #2 of 45
Thread Starter 
(Reserved 1)
Design specs



Any comments on these specs?

I like to go with 'easy' numbers, as you can see. But I can easily change some of these up before the design gets the final touches If you can see any benefit from this.
post #3 of 45
Thread Starter 
(Reserved 2)
Pictures

Ok, I finally got in the amp and Preamp/HiPass As well as a Mic to test everything out later.



Ok, a little more work done. I now have the Sonotube and ports all cut to length and the PL is in place. Now I just have to wait for everything else to dry.



Sorry for the picture quality. My camera bit the dust about a month back and I have not been able to replace it. So camera-phone must do the work for now.

Maxwell

Time to add more pictures and bring this thread out from the grave.
I finally got around to wrapping these things up and taking some measurements.












I will post more if anyone wants a better look at them.
post #4 of 45
Thread Starter 
(Reserved 3)
REW Graphs
post #5 of 45
Thread Starter 
I have a few questions for you guys.

I am looking at getting an EP2500 for this to power both of these. Is that too much / not enough power? Could I get away with its cheaper little brother the EP1500? I know that there is a newer version of it named the EP4000 which is basically re badged, but is that all that has changed? I can seem to find the EP4000 a bit cheaper than the EP2500's.

How do you guys normally mount the end caps inside of the tube, I am probably going to use Liquid Nails / PL. It looks like a nail gun might be appropriate here or is that just overkill?

I know that I have read people like to "break in their subs" I would imagine that would be similar to how you break in speakers. White noise at low volume over the course of a few hours seems to be a good way... Or am I totally off on this?

Ok, Time to go finish cutting out the holes for the ports.

Maxwell
post #6 of 45
I went ahead and modeled your design in WinISD, as I already had the driver parameters added.

485 liters is pretty huge, and I would not tune that low, with a short throw driver like that with a short xmech limit.

27 mm and it's all over but the crying. An EP2500 will definately be way too much power for this box. Call it 600 wpc into 4 ohms. ( it did more than that, but with a variac to hold voltage stable )

With 600 w power input, your 485 liter box tuned to 13.8 hz, the cone excursion will be 30.6 mm one way @ 20 hz, or 4 mm over the 'self destruct point'. ( modeled with a temp rise of 100F ) You would reach it's limits of clean throw at 40 hz with this much power.

If you want to use that size box and that tuning point, you can put no more than 125 watts into the driver before you surpass it's clean Xmax of 14 mm.

You also need a high pass filter, have you decided on what you are going to use?
post #7 of 45
Here's an excursion graph of the box sim.



The red horizontal line is the electrical Xmax of the sub.
LL
post #8 of 45
Thread Starter 
So from what I can tell, these subs do not have nearly the Xmax to handle this type of enclosure then?
post #9 of 45
Dayton Ref 15s can be used in a big low tuned sonosub but you can't use too much power really (and you won't need it). Its been done before.
post #10 of 45
The driver has a bit less mechanical clearance than most of the drivers typically used, also it has a shorter 'clean' throw than most. While it doesn't require massive amounts of power, it will do fine down low as long as you don't put too much power to it and 'break' it.

A Behringer A-500 might be just about right for these drivers, but I would cut down the sonotubes some and give them around 13 ft^2 each after port displacement, and stick with an 8" port, also raise your tuning some, I would suggest around 16 hz-17 hz.

Output wise, they should hang with a SVS Ultra-13 in 15 hz mode. Yes, the SVS has a smaller enclosure, but the driver is a long throw unit, as well as having a much more powerful amp.

You need something like the Behringer Ultragain MIC PRO 2200 for high pass filtering duties... yep, it's $ 100, but it will protect your wallet from having to buy more drivers.
post #11 of 45
Yeah the LLT's need to use high-excursion drivers to unlock their potential. The Daytons are great subs for the money, but don't stack up to the high x-max drivers out there (if you really gotta max out the sub's power handling).

The sonosub program is handy for figuring out volumes, but I'd much much rather trust winISD for my modeling needs. Plug the driver in and play with the tuning and size, you may well be able to come up with a comparable design.
post #12 of 45
Thread Starter 
Hmm. Well I knew that getting into this that the Xmax was not quite up to par with the more expensive subs, but I did not realize that It would be this much of a big deal.

Obviously this will still be a capable system, and It should be able to hit those low notes, but if I used something like the A500 (which is cheaper as well) then I would be safe to say I would be getting what I want out of this.
Would I still need to worry about damaging my subs with that amp?
And for those of you out there who love to model everything, could you tell me what I can expect from them with SPL and Freq response.



I could easily in the future swap out these drivers for say these:
http://www.diycable.com/main/product...roducts_id=652


And put some more power to them, That might not be a bad idea.
post #13 of 45
The actual frequency response will be highly dependant upon placement and your room construction, etc. It's safe to say they should deliver a clean 116 db across the board outdoors with 150 w per driver. ( that's for a pair of 13 cu ft cabinets co-located, and measured at 1m )

Indoors, that would translate to at least 122-124 db on the high end of the sub operating bandwidth.

If you were to upgrade down the road, I would suggest a pair of Acoustic Elegance AV15X, with the same tuning and more power. ( EP2500 / 4000 )
post #14 of 45
Thread Starter 
Simply changing the length of the port will up my tuning. This might be better off to what I am looking to do.

post #15 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3AMRecords View Post

Simply changing the length of the port will up my tuning. This might be better off to what I am looking to do.


Look in the top left corner, you have 500 liters effective volume. 500 liters is a bit much for these drivers, as well as the tuning was a bit too low.

368 liters is about what I would shoot for after taking the displacement of the port and driver away. Yes, you would still have to worry about breaking the drivers if you don't have a high pass filter, even with that A-500.

No high pass filter = death.
post #16 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Look in the top left corner, you have 500 liters effective volume. 500 liters is a bit much for these drivers, as well as the tuning was a bit too low.

368 liters is about what I would shoot for after taking the displacement of the port and driver away. Yes, you would still have to worry about breaking the drivers if you don't have a high pass filter, even with that A-500.

No high pass filter = death.

Ok, I worked with the numbers a bit. As I all ready have the sonotube and the port sonotube I cannot change that size. But I can cut them shorter.

post #17 of 45
Now you have to go in and correct the tuning, you have 18 hz. 16.5-17 will gobble up more real estate inside the enclosure.

When your tune shows around 16.5 hz, and 368 liters effective, you should have a port length of 32.25 " with no flange on the inside.

Here's a visual representation of what happens below tune with no high pass filter, RED = without, GREEN = with highpass @ 17hz, 2nd order BW.

Both boxes are with the same applied power, tuning and volume. I used 176 wats for the model, and 100F temp rise.


LL
post #18 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

Now you have to go in and correct the tuning, you have 18 hz. 16.5-17 will gobble up more real estate inside the enclosure.

When your tune shows around 16.5 hz, and 368 liters effective, you should have a port length of 32.25 " with no flange on the inside.

Here's a visual representation of what happens below tune with no high pass filter, RED = without, GREEN = with highpass @ 17hz, 2nd order BW.

Both boxes are with the same applied power, tuning and volume. I used 176 wats for the model, and 100F temp rise.

Well then, It looks like I need a HP filter on this setup or else when I want it to get super low I might end up "letting the magic smoke out" / blowing a speaker.
post #19 of 45
Thread Starter 
The version of WinISD I have does not have this Dayton driver, and when I tried to input it manually I cannot find all of the specs from the supplied .PDF from the PE website. Did you enter that one manually? Or am I missing something with this software?
post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3AMRecords View Post

Well then, It looks like I need a HP filter on this setup or else when I want it to get super low I might end up "letting the magic smoke out" / blowing a speaker.

Which is what I said in post # 6, as well as later on. You have a couple of choices, the Reckhorn B-1 / B-2, or the Behringer Ultragain MIC PRO 2200.
post #21 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3AMRecords View Post

The version of WinISD I have does not have this Dayton driver, and when I tried to input it manually I cannot find all of the specs from the supplied .PDF from the PE website. Did you enter that one manually? Or am I missing something with this software?

I'm not sure what's in the .PDF but you don't need to enter all of the params in WinISD, it will calculate a lot of them (in fact if you enter them all usually it will give you errors due to rounding on the MFG specs). Here are the parameters to enter to avoid errors, WinISD will calculate the rest - hopefully you have all of these:

Qes
Qms
Fs
Vas
Re
Le (optional)
Sd
Xmax


Regarding choice of the amp, yes the EP1500 or A500 would more suited to the application but they aren't much less $ than buying a used EP2500. If it were me I'd buy the EP2500 and just use one channel.
post #22 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I'm not sure what's in the .PDF but you don't need to enter all of the params in WinISD, it will calculate a lot of them (in fact if you enter them all usually it will give you errors due to rounding on the MFG specs). Here are the parameters to enter to avoid errors, WinISD will calculate the rest - hopefully you have all of these:

Qes
Qms
Fs
Vas
Re
Le (optional)
Sd
Xmax


Regarding choice of the amp, yes the EP1500 or A500 would more suited to the application but they aren't much less $ than buying a used EP2500. If it were me I'd buy the EP2500 and just use one channel.

Thanks, I noticed that It was trying to calculate those options. Once I get home this evening I will try to plug in all of those numbers and see what I get. I am not familiar with WinISD but I am sure it will not be hard to work out.

As far as the amp goes, I had thought about that, just getting the EP2500 and turning it down and it would still have the filter. It would also give me more headroom if I decide in the future to build some better subs.

I was really excited to be close to finishing this project, but I guess I missed a few things during my design stage... I really hope this does not come back to bite me in the rear. My biggest thing is, I want to do this Right the FIRST time.
Going back to the drawing board sort of scares me, because I have put so much work into this project. (This is my first sub build, and to be honest my first time using a router. It took a bunch of practice until I felt comfortable cutting and getting the pieces that I needed)

I think I just need to take a step back and change a few things up and get this project back on track again.

Any help or input would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Maxwell
post #23 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3AMRecords View Post

Thanks, I noticed that It was trying to calculate those options. Once I get home this evening I will try to plug in all of those numbers and see what I get. I am not familiar with WinISD but I am sure it will not be hard to work out.

As far as the amp goes, I had thought about that, just getting the EP2500 and turning it down and it would still have the filter. It would also give me more headroom if I decide in the future to build some better subs.

I was really excited to be close to finishing this project, but I guess I missed a few things during my design stage... I really hope this does not come back to bite me in the rear. My biggest thing is, I want to do this Right the FIRST time.
Going back to the drawing board sort of scares me, because I have put so much work into this project. (This is my first sub build, and to be honest my first time using a router. It took a bunch of practice until I felt comfortable cutting and getting the pieces that I needed)

I think I just need to take a step back and change a few things up and get this project back on track again.

Any help or input would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Maxwell

I can certainly appreciate that (ALL of it . I think you'll be able to find a good balance once you get WinISD up and running and can see what Michael is pointing out for yourself. Once you get that going then we can talk suggestions, it's just easier to help someone out when they can model it and see for themselves. If we do all of the modeling and tell you what to build then you may not understand the limits and compromises of the design (every design has compromises)
post #24 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

I can certainly appreciate that (ALL of it . I think you'll be able to find a good balance once you get WinISD up and running and can see what Michael is pointing out for yourself. Once you get that going then we can talk suggestions, it's just easier to help someone out when they can model it and see for themselves. If we do all of the modeling and tell you what to build then you may not understand the limits and compromises of the design (every design has compromises)

Exactly, and after all of my reading on LLT, I know that it usually takes a larger enclosure and lots of power, and that most people want to go with something smaller. I have no WAF to worry with so I wanted to go bigger than just a simple box.
My biggest issue is that when I had originally written up the specs for what I wanted out of a sono I had the ED19v2's, FI 18's, or a few other more expensive drivers that are super power hungry and have 2x the xmax than the Dayton's. I could afford the Dayton's and I got them. What I did not do was compensate for some of the major differences in the drivers. I just plugged them into the sonosub calc instead of the ED's.

The place that sells Sonotube only had 22 inch diameter when I went to go pick some up, so that is the size I ended up with. I know for these subs I could have easily used something that was 18 or 20 inch.

So far this has been a great learning experience for me. I really can't wait till it is finished so I can hear everything, but again, I want to get it right. It would bother me too much knowing in the back of my mind that I could have done something better.
post #25 of 45
The on-board high pass filters in an EP series are no where suitable for your needs, they are 33 hz and 50 hz IIRC, and are meant for either pro sound subs or mains.

You will need an outboard device for a high pass filter, and besides the EP 2500/4000 as well as the 1500 / 2000 are way too much power.
post #26 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

The on-board high pass filters in an EP series are no where suitable for your needs, they are 33 hz and 50 hz IIRC, and are meant for either pro sound subs or mains.

You will need an outboard device for a high pass filter, and besides the EP 2500/4000 as well as the 1500 / 2000 are way too much power.

Ok thank you for that clarification. I have seen quite a lot of people use the BFD for their bass management. I am not familiar with this device except for the fact that many here like it to EQ, does it include a HPF? If so that might be a good option to go with as I will want to use REQ to setup everything after the fact.
post #27 of 45
The Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124 will allow you to eq the bass region with precision... but it doesn't allow you to set a high pass filter, which is what you need the most.

The Behringer Ultragain MIC PRO 2200 is what you would need... it will allow you to set a high pass filter as low as 10hz, plus if you link both channels together will give you 2 bands of parametric EQ.
post #28 of 45
Thread Starter 
I plugged everything into WinISD and yes I can see what you are talking about now.

Ok, So I apologize for my ignorance, but I have seen plenty of Freq response graphs here, I know how normal speaker's are suppose to work paired with an amp in a standard box. I know that this must be a totally different animal.

But what is causing this driver to act the way it is at the 17hz mark?
Why the sudden dip from 28hz to 18hz then the giant jump back up in cone excursion?
It is also similar in the impedance graph.
I did note that This setup would be able to hit 109db to 20hz and then it starts to drop off.

Do other drivers act this way or is it just with with my setup?
post #29 of 45
On all vented boxes, the cone excursion skyrockets below tuning, without the use of a high pass filter. Commercially available vented subwoofers all have high pass filters in them.

109 db@ 20 hz is half space, for a pair figure 115-116 before any room gain. That's SVS Ultra-13 territory output levels. ( 15 hz tune ) You will have the advantage of a much better port velocity and less power applied to the coil.

The sudden dip in cone excursion is where the port starts to take over from the driver, they both contribute to the output, and as frequency falls down to the tuning, driver motion almost stops and the port is doing all of the work.

This is normal.
post #30 of 45
Thread Starter 
Ok... After messing around in WinISD I have a few more questions.

I have modeled a few different scenarios and I wanted to know what was going on with these numbers:
I used the same driver, 100f temp rise,1 8 in diameter port, 176 watts (to compare with the earlier graphs)

I noticed that the tuning changes everything quite a bit more than the actual volume.
I seem to get a tiny bit more SPL out of the smaller boxes. I cannot see anything else being affected significantly by a change in box size. What else should I be looking for?

The A500 is rated at 2x300WPC I know that these ratings are RMS, but at 300 Watts, I would be melting these subs. It looks like 200-210 is just about too much for them in this configuration as well. Should I look into getting an even less powerful amp?
According to this even at 176 watts I am still able to hit 110db easily down to 20hz. It also looks like that is about the leveling point where it would start to take 2x more power to get 1-2 more dB out of them (before room gain etc)


Maxwell
LL
LL
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