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Looking for a good gaming LCD TV

post #1 of 26
2/4/10 at 11:58am
Thread Starter 
I have browsed the forums and not been able to find a definitive answer to my pondering, so maybe someone can help?

Im looking for a 37-42" LCD, 1080P, Matte screen, for gaming on my Xbox360. I play 100% FPS fast-paced online shooters, so Ive been doing alot of research and I keep finding all these factors that figure in, ie different panels (IPS, TN, VA) and their respective input lags, picture quality and black levels, game mode vs vyper drive (what exactly does vyper drive do, does it reduce PQ? is it basically game mode?), etc etc and Im having a rough time deciding what is best (or sufficient) for my needs.

Here's what Im basically looking for:

-Under 1000 (can go 1100 if absolutely necessary)
-1080P
-Matte Screen
-Unnoticeable Input Lag (and preferrably not have to enable some 'Game Mode' that degrades the PQ - why cant I just enjoy the best beautiful picture when gaming?)
-Deep black levels (I need to be able to see a guy in a black suit crouching in a shadowed corner or very dark room/area)
-Speakers included (and decent)

Ive looked at the Samsungs, specifically the B630, and they have great PQ, but they get bad reviews for input lag... and they seem to require game mode. Are any of them an exception to that rule?

Ive also looked at the Sonys, specifically the XBR6 and XBR7, the XBR7 sounds nice but how is the input lag, and is it horrible without Game Mode on either the 6 or 7?

Ive read that LGs and Samsungs seem to be a "lottery" for what quality panel you'll actually get.

I understand that some panel types are better for input lag, while others are better for deep blacks, Im just trying to find something in the middle, or preferrably an exception to the rule.

Any help is greatly appreciated, if you need more info from me dont hesitate to ask!
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post #2 of 26
2/4/10 at 12:26pm
Thread Starter 
I figured a point of reference might help - I currently play on a 27" Westinghouse thats about 5-7 years old, so old I cant find the model on CNET. Its only 1080i and does not have HDMI hookups. I do notice that what Im seeing on the screen is about a half second behind whats actually happening, judging by the killcam I watch after I die in Call of Duty: MW2. I assume this is partly due to converting the signal or something, not all input lag perhaps, but I really dont know for sure. Anyway I just want a near-flawless gaming experience.
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post #3 of 26
2/4/10 at 12:34pm
Trust me you current tv is not delaying by 1/2 a second

If you feel the lag then its likely 45-100ms

I'm on my phone atm or I would link a few threads on here but just search for input lag on here and will find my thread as well as other ones on the subject to get you started
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post #4 of 26
2/4/10 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the quick reply frito. Ive done some research on input lag here and thats what tipped me off about the Samsungs generally being a bad idea (although I cant find much about exceptions to that rule) and LGs generally being 'the best' for input lag, but like I said I also read the LGs are lottery panels meaning they might stick you with a crap panel. I'll keep looking for input lag threads until I get more posts here though.

Youre right and the lag I experience is probably due to several factors including occasional server lag, first thing I probably need to do is drop the xbox down to 780p instead of 1080i, from what Ive read that can help... but anyway Im more interested in finding a new TV not tweaking my current one


Side question is the XBR6 "better" than the XBR7 in terms of image processing time? Significantly? Or visa versa? Ive read you can tweak PQ settings in Game Mode on these models, does this generally alleviate any PQ reduction?
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post #5 of 26
2/4/10 at 1:30pm
I've researched this a lot and in the end, basically given up.

If you want to game on a "huge" 40-50" screen laglessly, you're basically out of luck, for now at least imo.

I bought a Phillips 42" recently, before I discovered all this lag stuff. Rock Band 2 automatic (not manual!) normally puts it's lag at 50-60ms. It's an old model and doesnt even have a game mode.

I hunted down what looked to be a winner, the PanasonicTC-L42U12. This is supposed to be a S-IPS panel and therefore have low lag.

Well guess what, I just tested it and it's running 70-80 ms lag through HDMI! Terrible and worse than the Phillips.

Component and VGA seems really wonky on this set. I remember reading something about them not being able to accept 1080P. Sure enough they dont. Component with the Xbox set to 720P was able to get me readings in the 50's. Basically the same as the Phillips. So far I have not been able to get VGA to display at all on this Panasonic with the 360. About to give up.

My old 27" Olevia gets about 40 ms through VGA.


Long story short, unless you're willing to settle for a small TN screen (monitor) of 20-25", you might as well give up. Just accept that there will be some lag with big screen gaming. I am willing to bet you will find precious few recommendations. Why? Because none exist. And even the ones that do exist, I'm not sure I trust, theyre usually based on one guy's test that may or may not be reliable in the first place.
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post #6 of 26
2/4/10 at 1:41pm
I use to own the Samsung 46 inch LN46A650 and that tv was great looking but it had lag..

I was able to reduce the lag by renaming HDMI 2 with the remote to PC and that allowed me to have some picture tweaking options which game modes does not offer and a nice picture with low input lag.

The key was that in order to maintain the PC mode under HDMI 2, the output had to be 1080p from the ps3 and 360

but ps3 owners could not play all games on 1080p since it does not support it for ps3 therefore when they played a game that was 720p then the pc mode would turn off and be standard with lag

Good thing i game mostly on my 360

another solution is vga calbes from xbox... they provide 1080p and lower input lag then hdmi regular.
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post #7 of 26
2/4/10 at 1:47pm
ouch that much lag on the panny 42U12 eh

glad i picked the Toshiba 40xv645u over it my tests show its got 20-34ms input lag in game mode at 1080p over hdmi and that is very good

i've yet to test lower resolutions/other inputs but this number is so far the lowest i've seen on any TV still sold today in its size and i'm very happy with its performance overall
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post #8 of 26
2/4/10 at 1:49pm
You probably used the stopwatch method? I used Rock Band 2 test.

It's difficult to say they even give comparable results.
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post #9 of 26
2/4/10 at 1:50pm
Thread Starter 
I hear you Shark. Ive been reading these forums for the last 4 days and just keep going in circles. Thats why Ive finally posted, as a last resort. There just has to be an LCD TV out there thats bedroom size, doesnt lag and produces good black levels, and lets you game in the TVs full beauty. This doesnt seem like an unreasonable request for todays world. Why cant gamers get what they want?

So far the leaders on my list are the Sony XBR7, and the Sharps with Vyper Drive, but only because I cant really figure out what Vyper Drive does, Im curious does it cut out unecessary image processing without loss of picture black levels and color? Or does the screen significantly change like the game mode on Samsungs Ive seen? Can anyone give details on this feature and how it differs?
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post #10 of 26
2/4/10 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrMario View Post

I hear you Shark. Ive been reading these forums for the last 4 days and just keep going in circles. Thats why Ive finally posted, as a last resort. There just has to be an LCD TV out there thats bedroom size, doesnt lag and produces good black levels, and lets you game in the TVs full beauty. This doesnt seem like an unreasonable request for todays world. Why cant gamers get what they want?

So far the leaders on my list are the Sony XBR7, and the Sharps with Vyper Drive, but only because I cant really figure out what Vyper Drive does, Im curious does it cut out unecessary image processing without loss of picture black levels and color? Or does the screen significantly change like the game mode on Samsungs Ive seen? Can anyone give details on this feature and how it differs?


all LCD tv's have lag unless you buy one with about 60hz and turn game mode on. that might be the best solution.

But there are ways to reduce the lag
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post #11 of 26
2/4/10 at 2:08pm
Sharp's with that special game mode are very fast, what impact is has on the picture is unknown to me but you could always go to a store and turn it on to see what it does to the video feed (assuming they are not using a cable/antenna type video feed to the TV's)

Also most stores will let you bring a console or other device and hook it up to the TV so you can try it out. they will let you do anything to get the sale

as for the rock band test method. i don't trust it more than likely inflates the actual input lag figure because it is relying on human response time and that alone will add at least 20ms and possibly more depending on the person
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post #12 of 26
2/4/10 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Sharp's with that special game mode are very fast, what impact is has on the picture is unknown to me but you could always go to a store and turn it on to see what it does to the video feed (assuming they are not using a cable/antenna type video feed to the TV's)

Also most stores will let you bring a console or other device and hook it up to the TV so you can try it out. they will let you do anything to get the sale

as for the rock band test method. i don't trust it more than likely inflates the actual input lag figure because it is relying on human response time and that alone will add at least 20ms and possibly more depending on the person


I am using the auto test. It uses a built in sensor on the front of the guitar and then a sequence of flashing lights. No human input required.

I like it because it's easy to do and gives consistent results. I think some people say it's not accurate but I'm not sure why they say that. I havent got around to testing with a CRT to confirm it's accuracy, but I believe others have and the RB2 test correctly confirmed CRT's as having no lag, so it should be accurate.

But I'm just scared I may go for that Toshiba you mention, then get it home and test it only to find RB2 test says it has high lag as well. I've currently got two 42" LCD's here and need to return both if I get yet a third model!
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post #13 of 26
2/4/10 at 2:43pm
i'd say the only way you will not get a result like mine is if that test is flawed or if your not giving the TV 1080p over HDMI and have the TV set into game mode

what i really like about this TV is how easy it is to switch from game mode to say PC mode and in game mode 120hz and other pic controls like noise reduction and resolution+ are disabled but do not matter for PC/console use anyways but i do playback videos on my PC and like to turn on the 120hz when i do so and this TV will save each picture mode settings for each separate input so all i have to do is switch from game mode (normal PC use mode and gaming) to PC picture mode(or standard, movie whatever) for watching movies/videos etc

it just takes a few presses of the remote buttons
menu> down arrow> right arrow> exit pretty much

sure its not a one button solution for game mode on and off but at least i don't have to go deeper and turn the 120hz on and off n such
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post #14 of 26
2/4/10 at 2:53pm
But cant there be a frame+ error on timer tests? What about the fact some people said some of those timers arent accurate? I thought Sonys had awful lag, yet you tested a XBR6 as having under 50 ms lag?

Also I question if that Viewsonic is really nearly lag free as you say. What if it's lagging 16 ms? Then the Regza figures become unimpressive.

I'm not even saying one test (RB2 vs Timer) is right and one is wrong. Just that I dont know if they correlate.

I'm going to run the RB2 test on my old crappy 13 SD CRT now as a control. Once thats done I may go to Best Buy, return the Panasonic, exchange it for the Toshiba. Run test on the Toshiba, if they come out good, return the Phillips to Target, sigh.

Is it even worth all this trouble to exchange a set RB2 says has mid 50's lag for one that supposedly has 20-32? Gaining maybe, 20-30ms?
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post #15 of 26
2/4/10 at 3:05pm
20-30 ms is on the high end of bearable to me

the toshiba is not lag free i said before i tested it with a good timer that i actually had to pay a few bucks for from a European website that reviews PC monitors

they designed it to be as accurate as possible and it runs timers offset by 1ms in rows down both the left and right sides of the screen

my results from 11 photos taken was
20ms at the lowest 34 at the highest with the average of all the results being 27ms

with my 32xbr6 the results i get are more wide spread and always higher ranging from 32-60ms low/high and averaging at 47ms

it is worth noting that a 32xbr6 is not an "XBR6" it is a 60hz TV and the bigger real XBR6's are very different from my 32" version that is pretty much a relabeled V4100

all the talk about those sony models is pretty pointless though because you cannot find them anymore they've been discontinued for well over 1 year and are pretty much impossible to find (unless its used)
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post #16 of 26
2/4/10 at 3:19pm
Looking at the Amazon reviews, several people say the sound on 40XV645U becomes garbled after a certain amount of time and requires a restart
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post #17 of 26
2/4/10 at 3:31pm
have yet to have that happen but I rarely use the built in speakers because i have a 5.1 system

the sound is pretty poor just like most LCD TV's and i really do not recommend it for anything but normal TV use. Voices are clear and sound good on it but otherwise forget about it its terrible

the motion enhancer is also so-so, I'd personally consider it the lowest point on the TV, it works ok but does not remove everything and has a tendency to produce artifacts when turn up to smooth. the good news is it produces little if any soap opera effect or fake looking video like samsungs will do when turned up real high but some people prefer that effect
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post #18 of 26
2/4/10 at 3:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

20-30 ms is on the high end of bearable to me



all the talk about those sony models is pretty pointless though because you cannot find them anymore they've been discontinued for well over 1 year and are pretty much impossible to find (unless its used)

Not pointless the KDL-40XBR7 is very much still on the market, available at Amazon... Ive read the sound on it is phenomenal and that Sony's have a lower input lag than the Samsungs, but not as low as say LG. Generally, of course. I'd like to hear more about the XBR7... The fact that you can tweak the settings in Game Mode gives me hope.

Anyone? XBR7 lag test and PQ in game mode report?
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post #19 of 26
2/4/10 at 3:43pm
Just tested my oldass 13" SD CRT I had laying around with the RB 2 auto lag calibration. I only did one run but it came in at a stellar 3 ms. So yeah, I'd say the RB2 test is accurate.

Frito would you assume other similar Toshibas to be just as good at lag as yours? For example, the 46XV640U Wal Mart carries should be similar no?
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post #20 of 26
2/4/10 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky974 View Post

Just tested my oldass 13" SD CRT I had laying around with the RB 2 auto lag calibration. I only did one run but it came in at a stellar 3 ms. So yeah, I'd say the RB2 test is accurate.

Frito would you assume other similar Toshibas to be just as good at lag as yours? For example, the 46XV640U Wal Mart carries should be similar no?

Yeah i would guess that the xv640u is a walmart model and should perform just the same, just may be missing a few little features
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post #21 of 26
2/4/10 at 4:17pm
frito
What made you change your mind about the Panasonic S1?
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post #22 of 26
2/4/10 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgjr View Post

frito
What made you change your mind about the Panasonic S1?

tried but could not find one for sale locally, in fact sears said they had it but they didn't, the bastards have even already charged me for the thing even though i had them cancel it

so i decided that for the small amount more i was getting a bigger TV that was 120hz and it had better contrast it was worth the risk

i had 2 choices i was down to panasonic 42" U12 (someone earlier said its laggy!) and the tosh 40vx645u

tosh just plain looked better after playing with pic controls and i've heard and seen good input lag results in the past of other Toshiba showing no more than 30ms lag and that is indeed what i got so its an improvement over my sony easily
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post #23 of 26
2/4/10 at 5:27pm
How about the Toshiba 40RV525R/U Frito? Would it be mostly the same/low lag?

It's only 60HZ which is fine with me, it has a game mode, and it's 599 so a bit cheaper, and Best Buy carries it.
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post #24 of 26
2/4/10 at 5:38pm
I don't see why it would lag more if anything it may be slightly faster because its 60hz vs 120hz but i doubt it judging by the way my TV operates it appears to switch to 60hz when in game mode

(blur trail test patterns get cut in half when i turn on 120hz mode but input lag goes up sharply and that is to be expected with 120hz)
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post #25 of 26
2/4/10 at 8:23pm
Have you considered plasma TVs?

I currently have a Panasonic plasma as a dedicated gaming TV and haven't noticed any lag in fighting games that I play (Street Fighter 4 and BlazBlue). I've been using it for a year and so far no problems as far as burn in (that's after many hours of game playing).

Granted, there is a big issue now in the plasma forum about some Panasonic plasmas having significant black degradation over time but a) not all Panasonic plasmas are affected and b) this should not affect competitive FPS play.

Matte screen requirement may be an issue and I can see how glossy screen can be a problem in FPS games so plasma may not be what you are looking for but I think it merits a look.
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post #26 of 26
2/4/10 at 8:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by durack View Post

Have you considered plasma TVs?

I currently have a Panasonic plasma as a dedicated gaming TV and haven't noticed any lag in fighting games that I play (Street Fighter 4 and BlazBlue). I've been using it for a year and so far no problems as far as burn in (that's after many hours of game playing).

Granted, there is a big issue now in the plasma forum about some Panasonic plasmas having significant black degradation over time but a) not all Panasonic plasmas are affected and b) this should not affect competitive FPS play.

Matte screen requirement may be an issue and I can see how glossy screen can be a problem in FPS games so plasma may not be what you are looking for but I think it merits a look.

Thanks durack I did look at some Plasmas but ultimately decided not to go that route due to both matte screen requirements and the Panasonics new line having that black degradation... not only that but I have a bad habit of leaving my TV on for long periods of time

However, I just took a look at one of frito's "input wars" thread that posted the LCD Panasonic to be 0-1 frames input lag... thats pretty good and I bet I could play that set sans Game Mode and be fine(?), so now Im looking at the newer Pannys, the TC37S1 and the TC37G1 (does the G1 really make people get motion sickness? read that somewhere on here...)

All around, whats the word on the G1/S1? Hard to find reviews other than on Amazon (even here).

By the way sorry frito if I came off wrong on the matter of the XBR line. From reading your contributions its clear you know WTF youre talking about Also, you said in that input wars thread about the panasonic "this is one the very fastest LCD TV's ever tested, would love to see what panasonic's current TV's test at, it should be around the same as these models"

Have you tested the new ones yet?
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