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"Shi-Poo-Pi! Shi-Poo-Pi! Shi-Poo-Pi!" The Music Man comparison *PIX*

post #1 of 22
2/5/10 at 5:25am
Thread Starter 

XylonHD, YouTube Channel, @XylonHD

Sound Of Music
West Side Story
The Music Man
Singing In The Rain
Oklahoma
King And I
My Fair Lady
Funny Girl
Oliver!
South Pacific

Two down, eight more to go I think I still have the Laserdisc copy of each one of them


Warner Brothers has been doing an excellent job showing these classic "A" movies in high definition these past few months like The Wizard Of Oz, Gone With The Wind and North By Northwest. They all look film like and not infected by amateur work. This is why we invested thousands of dollars in our home theater. To see this films in all of its glory as good as or most of the time better looking when they were first shown in theaters.

Unfortunately I can't say the same with this release. Whoa! Before you Tar and Feather me hear me out. For the most part the image is very good to excellent. No excessive DNR. No Claymation™ look. Some white scratches here and there. But around the end of the movie 2:22:00 you can see this:





Some EE, the edges bleeds out and faint shadow image. I would leave it out to the experts to determine the proper term So close. Am I still recommending this? Yes, with reservations. I understand that Warner did the restoration work much earlier. And they decided to save money and not to work on this again using the modern tools available now. Too bad.

There is no new extra features made for this blu-ray release. All you get is a documentary that eveyone has seen since the Laserdisc copy "Right Here in River City".


Edited by Xylon - 9/17/12 at 11:55pm
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post #2 of 22
2/5/10 at 5:25am
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post #4 of 22
2/5/10 at 5:26am
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2/5/10 at 5:26am
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post #6 of 22
2/5/10 at 5:26am
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post #7 of 22
2/5/10 at 5:27am
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Blu-ray File size: 32.60 GB

Bitrate: 24.29 mbps

Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          

Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        

---------------------
00000.MPLS                                                      VC-1    2:31:16 35,017,371,648  36,346,337,608  30.87   24.29   DTS-HD Master 5.1 4064Kbps (48kHz/24-bit)
Code:
DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     THE_MUSIC_MAN
Disc Size:      36,346,337,608 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No
BDInfo:         0.5.3

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00000.MPLS
Length:                 2:31:16 (h:m:s)
Size:                   35,017,371,648 bytes
Total Bitrate:          30.87 Mbps

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
VC-1 Video              24290 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 3

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         4064 kbps       5.1 / 48 kHz / 4064 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio             German          192 kbps        1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio             Spanish         192 kbps        1.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         39.816 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Bulgarian       36.924 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           French          36.220 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           German          43.893 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           German          11.242 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Greek           35.808 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Hebrew          26.670 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Norwegian       27.908 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Portuguese      35.656 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Romanian        30.833 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         36.723 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         36.422 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         12.525 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Swedish         28.895 kbps                     

FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00000.M2TS      0:00:00.000     2:31:16.108     35,017,371,648  30,866          

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time In         Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  

Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          -------         ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  

--------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:02:34.863     25,079 kbps     37,158 kbps     00:00:10.677    34,059 kbps     00:00:06.798    31,440 kbps     00:00:05.797    131,532 bytes   

381,038 bytes   00:02:00.453    
2               0:02:34.863     0:03:22.827     28,539 kbps     36,930 kbps     00:04:31.771    33,355 kbps     00:04:27.934    32,088 kbps     00:03:48.519    148,850 bytes   

347,024 bytes   00:03:55.860    
3               0:05:57.690     0:01:45.480     26,993 kbps     34,506 kbps     00:07:25.319    33,327 kbps     00:07:24.735    31,726 kbps     00:07:24.569    140,730 bytes   

332,782 bytes   00:07:27.864    
4               0:07:43.171     0:03:55.401     25,838 kbps     52,020 kbps     00:08:26.506    34,122 kbps     00:10:25.458    32,321 kbps     00:10:21.078    134,709 bytes   

392,569 bytes   00:10:19.493    
5               0:11:38.572     0:02:13.633     22,562 kbps     33,289 kbps     00:13:36.565    32,237 kbps     00:13:32.561    31,475 kbps     00:13:27.556    117,630 bytes   

310,012 bytes   00:13:33.521    
6               0:13:52.206     0:03:03.516     21,266 kbps     35,413 kbps     00:15:29.470    32,665 kbps     00:15:28.135    31,982 kbps     00:14:03.884    110,870 bytes   

309,787 bytes   00:14:12.268    
7               0:16:55.723     0:04:18.258     22,222 kbps     38,434 kbps     00:19:08.230    32,239 kbps     00:18:17.763    31,556 kbps     00:18:18.472    115,855 bytes   

325,779 bytes   00:18:22.476    
8               0:21:13.981     0:01:51.319     20,889 kbps     31,104 kbps     00:21:56.773    28,615 kbps     00:21:53.228    24,325 kbps     00:21:48.223    108,907 bytes   

240,639 bytes   00:22:15.250    
9               0:23:05.300     0:01:58.117     20,387 kbps     25,951 kbps     00:24:24.171    24,687 kbps     00:23:21.566    23,045 kbps     00:24:17.330    106,287 bytes   

244,958 bytes   00:23:22.109    
10              0:25:03.418     0:01:50.110     20,510 kbps     27,217 kbps     00:26:05.855    26,021 kbps     00:26:05.105    25,714 kbps     00:26:02.769    106,928 bytes   

233,708 bytes   00:26:00.642    
11              0:26:53.528     0:03:45.224     20,948 kbps     34,294 kbps     00:27:59.969    32,507 kbps     00:27:59.844    31,274 kbps     00:27:53.213    109,256 bytes   

325,655 bytes   00:28:00.970    
12              0:30:38.753     0:04:35.191     22,674 kbps     46,201 kbps     00:34:06.502    32,129 kbps     00:31:45.528    31,581 kbps     00:31:45.194    118,375 bytes   

337,005 bytes   00:35:11.317    
13              0:35:13.945     0:07:38.708     27,081 kbps     44,961 kbps     00:35:21.953    34,425 kbps     00:40:31.637    32,215 kbps     00:39:27.114    141,188 bytes   

420,924 bytes   00:35:21.994    
14              0:42:52.653     0:03:38.217     22,953 kbps     39,006 kbps     00:43:23.475    31,233 kbps     00:43:22.641    28,659 kbps     00:43:22.641    119,805 bytes   

283,972 bytes   00:43:22.683    
15              0:46:30.871     0:03:23.369     21,642 kbps     35,708 kbps     00:48:45.422    32,769 kbps     00:48:44.504    30,986 kbps     00:49:44.231    112,854 bytes   

416,991 bytes   00:49:53.407    
16              0:49:54.241     0:03:17.071     22,453 kbps     34,907 kbps     00:52:28.186    32,670 kbps     00:52:26.685    31,922 kbps     00:52:26.685    117,333 bytes   

322,259 bytes   00:51:39.513    
17              0:53:11.313     0:02:10.839     26,797 kbps     34,613 kbps     00:54:26.721    31,670 kbps     00:54:24.803    31,094 kbps     00:53:45.889    139,705 bytes   

357,594 bytes   00:54:24.844    
18              0:55:22.152     0:02:51.880     27,311 kbps     38,439 kbps     00:56:13.912    35,207 kbps     00:56:12.577    32,626 kbps     00:57:52.469    142,386 bytes   

368,467 bytes   00:57:23.857    
19              0:58:14.032     0:02:57.969     25,386 kbps     36,264 kbps     00:58:48.608    33,201 kbps     00:58:45.563    32,087 kbps     00:58:39.974    132,352 bytes   

332,850 bytes   00:58:48.691    
20              1:01:12.001     0:07:42.962     21,958 kbps     36,346 kbps     01:05:07.194    31,693 kbps     01:05:51.822    31,087 kbps     01:05:50.529    114,477 bytes   

288,496 bytes   01:05:07.403    
21              1:08:54.964     0:04:14.712     27,438 kbps     41,867 kbps     01:12:31.805    32,980 kbps     01:12:31.805    31,470 kbps     01:12:31.430    143,049 bytes   

356,065 bytes   01:09:38.007    
22              1:13:09.676     0:04:20.510     27,302 kbps     33,500 kbps     01:15:16.929    31,858 kbps     01:15:13.050    30,539 kbps     01:15:08.212    142,341 bytes   

310,605 bytes   01:15:26.939    
23              1:17:30.187     0:04:47.662     26,185 kbps     44,774 kbps     01:22:13.345    31,901 kbps     01:21:29.259    31,197 kbps     01:21:24.921    136,515 bytes   

309,758 bytes   01:22:13.553    
24              1:22:17.849     0:01:19.871     19,346 kbps     36,807 kbps     01:22:18.224    28,427 kbps     01:22:18.099    24,118 kbps     01:22:18.016    100,859 bytes   

317,953 bytes   01:22:19.559    
25              1:23:37.721     0:04:49.622     25,920 kbps     56,521 kbps     01:23:50.734    34,443 kbps     01:23:46.730    32,066 kbps     01:26:47.076    135,133 bytes   

375,003 bytes   01:23:48.857    
26              1:28:27.343     0:03:32.003     27,147 kbps     33,059 kbps     01:30:25.086    32,140 kbps     01:31:20.766    31,106 kbps     01:31:16.679    141,535 bytes   

309,579 bytes   01:31:21.851    
27              1:31:59.347     0:05:10.810     24,951 kbps     37,212 kbps     01:34:07.433    32,774 kbps     01:34:07.433    32,208 kbps     01:34:33.417    130,137 bytes   

306,412 bytes   01:34:07.475    
28              1:37:10.157     0:05:31.706     25,715 kbps     36,736 kbps     01:41:03.057    32,712 kbps     01:39:50.985    31,753 kbps     01:39:47.064    134,065 bytes   

303,610 bytes   01:37:19.250    
29              1:42:41.864     0:02:14.050     21,268 kbps     31,899 kbps     01:42:51.498    31,018 kbps     01:42:45.159    30,343 kbps     01:42:50.831    110,883 bytes   

291,562 bytes   01:42:48.871    
30              1:44:55.914     0:04:17.882     18,208 kbps     34,571 kbps     01:47:01.498    32,362 kbps     01:47:01.415    30,540 kbps     01:47:01.498    94,926 bytes    

304,115 bytes   01:47:11.633    
31              1:49:13.797     0:00:58.600     22,037 kbps     31,065 kbps     01:49:55.005    30,146 kbps     01:49:54.671    29,591 kbps     01:49:54.462    114,890 bytes   

210,999 bytes   01:49:47.831    
32              1:50:12.397     0:04:18.591     23,635 kbps     32,267 kbps     01:52:11.558    30,504 kbps     01:52:08.888    28,091 kbps     01:52:08.680    123,223 bytes   

365,948 bytes   01:50:38.214    
33              1:54:30.989     0:02:01.579     21,565 kbps     31,677 kbps     01:55:10.153    29,580 kbps     01:56:01.037    28,858 kbps     01:55:59.953    112,432 bytes   

260,875 bytes   01:55:10.612    
34              1:56:32.568     0:06:42.110     27,554 kbps     50,424 kbps     01:57:25.455    34,553 kbps     01:57:22.285    32,248 kbps     02:02:25.087    143,653 bytes   

352,749 bytes   02:02:39.852    
35              2:03:14.678     0:01:01.811     27,363 kbps     36,566 kbps     02:04:07.273    32,351 kbps     02:04:04.770    31,648 kbps     02:04:05.187    142,658 bytes   

368,222 bytes   02:03:23.896    
36              2:04:16.490     0:01:37.263     17,543 kbps     32,166 kbps     02:04:33.674    30,141 kbps     02:04:32.548    28,338 kbps     02:04:30.629    91,464 bytes    

307,383 bytes   02:05:22.515    
37              2:05:53.754     0:03:43.139     18,572 kbps     29,972 kbps     02:09:03.569    28,892 kbps     02:08:59.565    28,100 kbps     02:08:55.477    96,827 bytes    

243,075 bytes   02:07:24.428    
38              2:09:36.894     0:02:25.186     19,492 kbps     34,854 kbps     02:09:53.118    33,413 kbps     02:09:51.283    29,774 kbps     02:09:50.157    101,623 bytes   

428,881 bytes   02:09:54.077    
39              2:12:02.080     0:02:52.213     26,165 kbps     39,022 kbps     02:12:34.279    32,958 kbps     02:12:31.777    31,593 kbps     02:13:24.746    136,413 bytes   

484,219 bytes   02:14:35.484    
40              2:14:54.294     0:02:45.123     22,894 kbps     36,981 kbps     02:17:15.393    31,785 kbps     02:17:27.989    30,017 kbps     02:17:12.807    119,359 bytes   

318,958 bytes   02:17:15.769    
41              2:17:39.417     0:04:11.417     24,274 kbps     38,049 kbps     02:19:58.348    31,779 kbps     02:18:02.565    31,338 kbps     02:17:58.561    126,552 bytes   

427,687 bytes   02:18:36.349    
42              2:21:50.835     0:02:47.625     27,266 kbps     35,888 kbps     02:24:16.522    33,876 kbps     02:23:09.372    32,147 kbps     02:22:44.681    142,152 bytes   

329,784 bytes   02:23:54.125    
43              2:24:38.461     0:02:35.280     28,717 kbps     36,691 kbps     02:26:04.338    33,123 kbps     02:26:02.420    31,838 kbps     02:26:02.420    149,716 bytes   

405,294 bytes   02:26:02.462    
44              2:27:13.741     0:02:15.426     28,562 kbps     35,762 kbps     02:28:56.385    33,034 kbps     02:28:52.465    31,626 kbps     02:28:47.460    148,910 bytes   

399,134 bytes   02:29:20.034    
45              2:29:29.168     0:01:46.940     28,711 kbps     51,244 kbps     02:30:46.996    34,434 kbps     02:30:45.995    32,295 kbps     02:30:16.716    151,160 bytes   

370,218 bytes   02:30:07.123    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Language                Seconds                 Bitrate                 Bytes           Packets         
----            ---             ----            -----           --------                --------------          --------------          -------------   -----           
00000.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0xEA            VC-1                                    9075.984                24,290                  27,556,962,372  149,897,392     
00000.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x86            DTS-HD MA       eng (English)           9075.984                4,064                   4,610,726,784   26,471,467      
00000.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x81            AC3             deu (German)            9075.984                192                     217,827,072     1,418,145       
00000.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             spa (Spanish)           9075.984                192                     217,827,072     1,418,145       
00000.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           9075.984                40                      45,172,268      260,187         
00000.M2TS      4609 (0x1201)   0x90            PGS             fra (French)            9075.984                36                      41,091,615      236,401         
00000.M2TS      4610 (0x1202)   0x90            PGS             deu (German)            9075.984                44                      49,797,376      285,312         
00000.M2TS      4611 (0x1203)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           9075.984                37                      41,662,440      239,697         
00000.M2TS      4612 (0x1204)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           9075.984                36                      41,321,041      237,814         
00000.M2TS      4613 (0x1205)   0x90            PGS             bul (Bulgarian)         9075.984                37                      41,890,887      241,337         
00000.M2TS      4614 (0x1206)   0x90            PGS             ell (Greek)             9075.984                36                      40,624,927      234,487         
00000.M2TS      4615 (0x1207)   0x90            PGS             heb (Hebrew)            9075.984                27                      30,257,699      178,130         
00000.M2TS      4616 (0x1208)   0x90            PGS             nor (Norwegian)         9075.984                28                      31,662,064      180,845         
00000.M2TS      4617 (0x1209)   0x90            PGS             por (Portuguese)        9075.984                36                      40,452,357      233,461         
00000.M2TS      4618 (0x120A)   0x90            PGS             ron (Romanian)          9075.984                31                      34,980,381      203,755         
00000.M2TS      4619 (0x120B)   0x90            PGS             swe (Swedish)           9075.984                29                      32,781,372      186,376         
00000.M2TS      4620 (0x120C)   0x90            PGS             deu (German)            9075.984                11                      12,754,475      73,261          
00000.M2TS      4621 (0x120D)   0x90            PGS             spa (Spanish)           9075.984                13                      14,209,610      81,864
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post #8 of 22
2/5/10 at 9:21am
Look at the stars on the flag as well. It almost looks like ghosting. What is causing that? *Paging mhafner and/or Movieswede.*

In the grab that's located in post #4 you can clearly make out the dust and minute scuff marks that's on the flooring. That's awesome!

Thanks Xylon.

Quote:


Sound Of Music
West Side Story
The Music Man
Singing In The Rain
Oklahoma
King And I
My Fair Lady
Funny Girl
Oliver!
South Pacific

Let's not forget Esther Williams.
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post #9 of 22
2/5/10 at 9:29am
Looks decent... kind of disappointing to see so many films shot on a large negative have less resolution in HD than many plain ol' 35mm restorations though. Guess it's not always feasible.
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post #10 of 22
2/5/10 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kroenen View Post

Look at the stars on the flag as well. It almost looks like ghosting. What is causing that? *Paging mhafner and/or Movieswede.*

Well I can see the same stars in the DVD too - though obviously much fainter. I don't know, I think those might just be a result of the flag being translucent and actually having another set of stars show through underneath. There's definitely some EE and minor ghosting, but the stars are so much more severe than everything else that I'm not sure they're the same thing.
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post #11 of 22
2/5/10 at 3:42pm
Thanks for the great effort with the scans. As usual, I appreciate it.

TMM was filmed in Technirama so it is always possible that a more extensive restoration might prove helpful.

However, as someone who saw (and heard) this film at least 20 times in its original release, I am very pleased. I find little wrong with picture at all, very much like my memory of the original film. The original prints were dye-transfer Technicolor from Techirama negatives.

If I were to fault the image at all, I would say that the color balance lacks green in many cases. I corrected this on my projector. [I commonly tweak things a bit to make them closer to my recollection.]

The extraordinary thing about TMM is the sound track. This is one of the best 4-track magnetic releases ever, and the lossless soundtrack really works. Bravissimo!

[TMM was intended to be released in Super Technirama 70 with 6 track magnetic sound but Warners backed out at the last minute and didn't make any 70mm prints. Neverthess, the Technirama photography (double-width negative like VistaVision) and the sound recording--one of the glories of the Warners sound department--really works.]
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post #12 of 22
2/5/10 at 7:36pm
I just watched the Blu-ray for the second time.

In general, it does look great and it puts the DVD to shame (as it should).

However, there are instances where there are some obvious quality issues which I can only attribute to variations in the source material. A good example is the scene with Robert Preston and Shirley Jones in the "Candy Kitchen". The edge enhancement is more than liberally applied and the grain is excessive (as if derived from a multi-generational dupe). Yet the vast majority of the film looks terrific.

I'd love to know the story behind these quality variations. Warner Brothers isn't stupid and I strongly believe there must be a good and logical reason for what we see. WB isn't going to prep a movie for BD release and decide to stick in a couple of heavily EE'd and overly grainy scenes just for the heck of it. Maybe I'm being a pushover but when I see a great looking movie with two sub par scenes (the one Xylon pointed out and the Candy Kitchen scene that I noticed), I have to think that, for whatever reasons, those two questionable scenes may be the best that Warner had available.

I'd still recommend this without reservation for fans of musicals.
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post #13 of 22
2/5/10 at 10:29pm
Whoa! A (relatively) high bit rate encode from Warner! It shows that it helps (only a few blocking artifacts in those caps)!
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post #14 of 22
2/6/10 at 1:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

[b]Sound Of Music
West Side Story
The Music Man
Singing In The Rain
Oklahoma
King And I
My Fair Lady
Funny Girl
Oliver!

I would add Hello, Dolly! to that list. I saw a 70mm print last year and it looked stunning, plus the movie was much better than I expected.

Another large format musical that Fox has been working on recently is Can-Can, could be that it will get a Blu-Ray release this year.
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post #15 of 22
2/7/10 at 5:24am
Thread Starter 
I have never seen Can-Can
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post #16 of 22
2/7/10 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I have never seen Can-Can

Me neither

I think it has not been shown in 70mm for some time now, at least in the US, plus there is no HD version available yet. As watching this on a big HT screen in the DVD version simply does not work for me I am hoping that Fox will release a Blu-Ray of Can-Can sooner rather than later.
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post #17 of 22
3/7/10 at 7:03am
Thread Starter 


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post #18 of 22
3/7/10 at 9:23am
Wow...that last comparison pretty much tells people everything they need to know about DVD vs. Blu-ray.

I post on a non-movie board (actually, a forum for plastic model builders) where we have an off-topic section. Movies often come up and I don't think many of the guys "get" the whole blu-ray thing.

Could I have your permission to post that last comparison on the other board...with full credit to you, of course. The topic of THE MUSIC MAN just came up because one of the guys is building sets for a highschool production. I think that comparison would make them take notice.
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post #19 of 22
3/14/10 at 2:08pm
Just watched the MM on my RS20. I was very pleased with the picture. Some scenes have tremendous detail and looked great. Musical numbers sounded great. Surely this move is a corny as they come, but that is the point of the thing. The casting is first rate..especially Preston, Shirley Jones (looking fine back then), Buddy Hackett, and Ford/Gingold. The Buffalo Bills barbershop quartet sound amazing.
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post #20 of 22
4/2/10 at 5:57am
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post #21 of 22
4/25/10 at 5:01am
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post #22 of 22
5/1/10 at 6:41am
Whoa ! Didn't know this was out on BD. Haven't been keeping up with the back-catalog re-releases. I'm a fan of musicals. Was raised on them - my mother sang in a local "sweet adelines" group and I was dragged along to many a local high school musical. This, along with MFL and Oklahoma ! are my favs. Have all on DVD, but they don't look so good anymore when I moved up from a 42" plasma to a 115" front proj system. Good to hear that the audio sounds great. My favs from the movie are barbershop quartet numbers and "marion the librarian".

So is it just me or the way the comparison clips turned out, but in nearly every case the BD stills have a distinctly reddish hue to them compared to the DVD stills. Does it appear that way on screen ? Honestly, I have no way of knowing which version has greater fidelity to the actual film.

Bill
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