Surge Protector/Power Conditioner and UPS - Page 21

If I were to write about all my work and home experiences with utility and storm induced power problems and damage it would be closer to a book than a post.

I live and have mostly worked in suburban areas. You do not need to have a direct lightning hit to have big time problems. A strike nearby or to a nearby electric line will do for major surges. Often when there is a power failure, or what the utility company euphemistically calls a fault clearing, the power may go on and off repeatedly in a few seconds to a few minutes and may not be at optimal voltage at onset.

My personal experience includes damage, some expensive, on a few occasions before getting protective devices. There have been events but no damage to audio-video equipment since. I have good quality basic surge protectors on some things of low-value. For things that cost real money I have API PowerWedges and an APC SmartUPS. I also have charger/inverters with batteries to keep the furnace, hot water, a few lights and coffee going in the event of a few hours outage.

And replacement value home insurance.

I realize that I am talking about $,$$$ in power conditioning not what you get at HD or Lowes. But the protected equipment cost many times what the protectors do. And there is the absence of anxiety or worry when the heavens get loud, or I am away. One of my better uses of money in my opinion.

Amazing how this level of common sense gets so little play around here sometimes.

LOL This thread still going. Westley I am now installing 500' towers around my home to ground. Also I have swore off generated electricity now thanks to your warnings! I bought out all of the batteries at my Home Depot so I should be good and safe for a while. Thank you for the wonderful sarcasam and infinite Wisdom

If you had any understanding at all, you would understand that clamps can be either in series, or parallel.

1. In series, the current in each will be identical. The voltage drop will be per unit, the dissipation directly proportional to each MOV's let through curve.

2. In parallel, the voltage is identical, the dissipation will be dependent on the let through curve, the dissipation within each element will be less controllable.

Series is the better defined application.


Unlike you who chooses not to mask it?



Um, that is your schtick westdude.

As for technical naivety.....your previous post will be forever etched in everybody's mind. Note that I have NEVER, EVER, met nor taught a technically capable person who would ever say this::


Your post clearly defines your abilities. Your so called "teachings" are bound to get somebody killed someday. Stop.

Cheers, John

LOL @ westey.

This defines your level of knowledge:


You're currently at zero.

While true, is it not also true that the MOV protectors we find readily available in the mass market are all of the parallel type? My experience in this area is limited, but that was what I found.

Your experience is the reality. He is inventing as he goes to 'impress' others. MOVs are not stacked in series for the same reason why 60 volt circuit breakers are not stacked in series to create a 120 volt circuit breaker. And yes, some appliance designer did just that to create many kitchen fires. If jneutron knew how MOVs operate, then he (and others) would not be posting ridiculous nonsense about MOVs in series. He is posting so as to avoid admitting to insufficient knowledge. MOVs in series create too many problems otherwise solved simply by using one appropriate device.

Anyone with minimal knowledge knows MOVs are best connected in parallel. Anyone posting only to be argumentative and nasty would hype the mythical series connection nonsense. Being argumentative is his objective. Being honest is not.

I have never seen MOVs in series. Not saying it ain't been done, just I haven't seen it. Parallel allows power sharing among the MOVS; series does too, but also puts the let-through voltages in series, offering less protection for the unit being protected (more voltage across the pins before they clamp). I have also used different types of MOVs (and other related devices) in parallel to provide broader bandwidth protection.

We have whole-house transient/surge and lightning protection plus various APC UPS units on computers, TVs, part of the sound system, etc. We have poor power with outages lasting seconds to days on a fairly regular basis (short ones almost weekly, very long ones maybe once a year). We have had several near strikes (i.e. hit trees within 50 - 100 yards of the house), no direct strikes. The only damage so far was a TV when a near miss came in through the cable on the one TV I did not loop the cable through the APC unit -- the other TVs (three of them, don't ask) survived, as did everything else. The cable company came out and installed an external lightning protector after this event...

A neighbor's house was hit, and they lost almost everything except a PC on an APC unit. The TVs, lights, fridge, furnace fan, well pump -- all history. Coincidence? Maybe...

I have done enough research and measurements to convince myself the value of both whole-house and local protection. YMMV - Don

It is ridiculous...but not as ridiculous as insisting that DC cannot produce a magnetic field.


MOV's don't conduct until their breakdown voltage is reached. A device with MOV's in series with the load would only operate during a 'surge'.

I agree, that's what I meant by the let-through voltage doubling (or whatever) as well. MOVs usually aren't (or only) what you want for direct strikes, but a direct strike leads to other issues that probably outweigh the number of MOVs in your surge strip...

What a ridiculous and uneducated diversion.

LEARN THE MATERIAL...IN THAT WAY, YOU WILL NOT POST DRIVEL


you mean like this gem of yours::



You post nonsense westom..YOU ARE DANGEROUS, YOU PROVIDE DANGEROUS ADVICE. You "appear" to know only what you google, and even then you do not understand it..

Please ask questions...you need to learn. Stop giving advice that may kill others.

And, sheesh...learn something..

Cheers, John

Two MOV's in series will share current exactly. In parallel, they will not unless closely matched.

And yes, the let throughs will add.

Cheers, John

Obviously, they're in series.
Of course, they'll only conduct when their breakdown voltage has been exceeded... what use would this be to anyone?

Nice article, SADs are part of what I've used in parallel with MOVs. The design is tricky, though -- have to provide fast initial clamping with the SADs and ensure the MOVs still handle the "heavy lifting". This was in systems where the concern was not just lightning but other high-power wideband spikes (RF transmitters and T/R switches, power tube arcs, things like that).

Tnx - Don

Agreed how does he think DC motors Work? Magic

Westom has not recanted accurately. He CLAIMED he did, but even that was false. I guess he is at a loss to explain the DC / magnetism information accuracy abyss.

How do you apply the RHR if you're left-handed? (Geek humor, sorry...)

Become dyslexic.

Better yet, when you go to specify and purchase magnets and superconducting undulators/wigglers for synchrotron light sources and electron accelerators, you have to use the Left Hand Rule. You have no idea how confusing this is for particle accelerator physicists and magnet engineers..


Cheers, John

ps...
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/...les/index.html

Ever had to explain "BCH" and "RCH" to an architect?

And you thought it was just a children's song.

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As for:
"superconducting undulators/wigglers "

... isn't that commonly referred to as a lap dance?

This is my first post on this forum. I have been watching this thread evolve, and fully knowing what can be slung around regarding this controversial topic concerns me because my day job does not allow me to sit and reply to comments with the frequency I would like. I am, however, very passionate about what's been discussed here and didn't want to pass up the opportunity to share some thoughts and references that might be helpful for understanding and troubleshooting.

First - a little disclosure: My day job is owning, guiding, and running a company of around 1000 employees in an industry-related manufacturing company, Middle Atlantic Products. Although we are best known for our metal, we also engineer, manufacture and sell power distribution products, some of which are UPS and some are surge/spike protection and some are 240/208V to 120V shielded power isolation transformers. Our website only shows catalog items but we design and manufacture many other power distro devices. We employ full-time licensed electricians for our transformer-based OEM products, and many electrical/electronic engineers - one is a master electrical inspector so we can help with field conditions and inspections on jobsites. We fully understand the code and how to apply it. We also have recently purchased Exact Power (mentioned earlier in this thread), and are in the process of changing its products and marketing message (including the website).

Knowing how crucial the most current industry consensus on power and grounding is to what we do every day, I try to surround myself with some of the smartest people our planet has to offer. One of them is Ralph Morrison who is a well known author and physicist who has had an incredible career solving lightning protection issues. Here is a link to some of his very short and very interesting blurbs that might be of particular interest to those following this thread closely. http://www.ralphmorrison.com/Ralph_M...ce_topics.html

If anyone feels they might benefit from a deeper explanation he has of lightning and the mechanisms by which it actually causes damage, I would be happy to attempt to convey his information in a little more detail. But in the meanwhile, Ralph always insists that fields are the only way to look at grounding problems and solutions, as electron theory fails at high frequencies. Lightning is primarily a high-frequency event. It is tough to follow field math (for some it's nearly impossible to follow, present company included) but I know what he teaches and have spent enough years with him to feel confident that I get it.

I am fortunate to live near Henry Ott, another well known author and one of the best on EMC. His mentoring and real-world experiences have been invaluable to the work we've done on our paper on power & grounding of AV systems http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/PowerPaper.pdf. There are a host of others, and all the references at the back of the paper are great reads to help put the pieces together.

I also feel very fortunate to have mentored as a child under a ham radio builder, then electrical engineers, and then over 30 years of my own personal hands-on electrical experience. I am a very young 52 years old and I'm always open to sharing the knowledge I've gained throughout my career not just for the sake of theory, but to help the integration community with real-world issues in designing and troubleshooting AV systems.

So do I have commercial interests as a business owner? Of course. But do our efforts towards industry education and consensus-building make us any more money? Slightly if any. We publish peer-reviewed educational materials to help make our AV industry a safer, better place. I hope it would be a valuable resource to you and I welcome your comments (I only ask that you please be respectful).

Bob Schluter,
Chief Engineer & CEO, Middle Atlantic Products

I have been using a lot of your products for years. Excellent products for sure.

We even had one of our installs in St Louis using 2 of the pull out racks that we modified to rotate on the cover of Home Theater.

Now if you all made a 19 Rack mount black anodized aluminum enclosure with
removable sides and top for building custom gadgets. we have to use the LMB Heeger Unipac series in black.

Ditto. Server rooms full, and many studios I have been in have your consoles/desks and racks. Heard Ott lecture years ago. Gotta' love your handle (PFC=Good), too!

What if we changed our CH series body to alum? The face already is brush & anodized alum...

Thanks for the biz and kind words!

Our Team always works hard to keep customers satisfied- I am fortunate to lead such a fine group of people.

One of my peeves is that non-dimmable compact fluorescents are not power factor corrected. It costs the utility more to deliver the electricity with a bad power factor, and ultimately the Earth pays for it by using more resources. PFC for CF's should be law. /rant over

Welcome to the nuthouse..

Cheers, John

ps..you have mail.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your excellent post, and for products design in and for the real world. Refreshing!

I have to sheepishly apologize for an impure thought that I'm happy you dispelled. Apparently, PFC means power factor corrected? I first thought PFC=Good was a subtle shot at an old bromide, "Pretty F'n Close: Good enough for government work." Sorry for my demented thoughts.