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Official InFocus Sp8602 owners thread. - Page 5

post #121 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Almost60 View Post

How it works?

At 10% iris is in maximum aperture or maximum closure?

maximum closure
post #122 of 1992
I thought the opposite...

Thanks to all.
post #123 of 1992
Thread Starter 
has anyone figured out how, if at all possible, to turn off the brilliant color. It doesnt seem like it is an option like in the planar 8150...

also, an other comments on if it is possible to use 'Set black level' when using hdmi?

Lastly, has anyone adjusted noise reduction at all? Mine is at 50 (default), but I remember reading that any sort of noise filtering used by the display actually degrades the image quality.
post #124 of 1992
Is my opinion that the DNR must be always turned off in any display.
post #125 of 1992
Hi there.

Can you guys tell me how much it is selling for in the US?

Thanks very much.
post #126 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by luelf21 View Post

Pandorum especially, with alot of others showing, I guess you would call it typical grain. But yeah pandorum was pretty grainy.

Hi there. I'm thinking of buying one of these so just wanted to see if you could give us some context on what you're viewing and how.

Are you watching upscaled DVDs or blu rays?

If blu ray, what films are grainy, as some older ones (and some new) may not be perfect?

What size is the image you're projecting?

Also, are you used to viewing on a projector or a plasma/LCD TV? Certainly when I first used my PJ it took a couple of weeks to realise it is very much a case of garbage in garbage out, but magnified, so maybe you're getting used to this?

Would be really great to know as Art's initial uncalibrated review said the projector was very sharp or certainly not bad, but it could be a fault on your machine or just that the unit isn't very good.
post #127 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poagman View Post

I actually posted my opinion earlier today on here at

I am not a professional installer, calibrater, just a long-time PJ user. I just wanted to point out pots of interest and major differences I saw between the IN83 and SP8602.

Brilliant, thanks. Any other feedback, comparisons or things you notice would be greatly appreciated as comparisons with IN83 are exactly what I'm after.

How does having a dynamic iris work and does the image generally appear sharper and smoother.

Interested in your comment about it syncing up. One issue with my IN83 was that it wasn't recognised by Sony devices, so I'm hoping this has been resolved on the new one.

Is it OK noise wise as well? I'm guessing it is similar to the IN83.

And how about upscaling?

Don't worry if you can't get back to me, thanks for the first review, which was helpful.
post #128 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

The intention was to post a full review back when this was supposed to ship (the first time). Apparently though that isn't a priority since I haven't even gotten confirmation of my shipment yet and others have already gotten theirs.

It's arrived?
post #129 of 1992
Thread Starter 
Hi there. I'm thinking of buying one of these so just wanted to see if you could give us some context on what you're viewing and how.

Are you watching upscaled DVDs or blu rays? All blu rays thus far

If blu ray, what films are grainy, as some older ones (and some new) may not be perfect? All except disney/pixar movies, which are made digitally anyway and suffer from no noise, and my calibration test material, have some bit of noise, which is typical of bluray. I just noticed alot more in pandorum, probably due to the darkness of the movie.

What size is the image you're projecting? 123" 16:9 aspect ration, Vutec sound screen (acoustically transparent) AND I am also sitting 10' away. obviously at this distance, more grain is visible, but man is the viewing expirience incredible!! The projector has about 16' of throw.

Also, are you used to viewing on a projector or a plasma/LCD TV? Certainly when I first used my PJ it took a couple of weeks to realise it is very much a case of garbage in garbage out, but magnified, so maybe you're getting used to this? I am used to all of the above. The projector I am most used to is the IN83, as that is what my dad used to have in his theater. No garbage in here. All connections are HDMI, reciever is the Pioneer Elite SC-27, and the bluray player is the Pioneer Elite BDP-23fd.

Would be really great to know as Art's initial uncalibrated review said the projector was very sharp or certainly not bad, but it could be a fault on your machine or just that the unit isn't very good.
I fully beilieve this SP8602 is the projector to beat this year. Art had great things to say even from an uncalibrted unit. After reading, grain is typical in most all blurays. I was worried about the blacks on my projector because they were showing up "lighter" than the black letterbox bars while viewing in 2.35:1 aspect ratio. Well, those black bars arent even being projected by the projector, so they are tehnically pure black. Yeah, mine arent as dark as they are, but its pretty damn close and cant even be noticed unless its a pitch black image being projected, like on most of pandorum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintJD View Post

Brilliant, thanks. Any other feedback, comparisons or things you notice would be greatly appreciated as comparisons with IN83 are exactly what I'm after. Better than the IN83 in every way.

How does having a dynamic iris work and does the image generally appear sharper and smoother. The projector will evaluate the brightness and darkness in any given image and based on that, it will either open or close the iris to get better blacks when needed, and a brighter image when there are no demanding blacks to project. This doesnt really deal with sharpness, just mainly contrast and how black the blacks appear.

Interested in your comment about it syncing up. One issue with my IN83 was that it wasn't recognised by Sony devices, so I'm hoping this has been resolved on the new one. Mine also takes awhile to sync...it WILL eventually sync up, but will actually scroll through the different inputs a few times before it will recignize a signal to sync with. And sometimes it will get it on the first try.
post #130 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by luelf21 View Post

I was worried about the blacks on my projector because they were showing up "lighter" than the black letterbox bars while viewing in 2.35:1 aspect ratio. Well, those black bars arent even being projected by the projector, so they are tehnically pure black.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you are talking about the black bars that a 16:9 projector projects when reproducing a 2.35:1 aspect ratio image, then yes, it is being projected by the projector. I.e. the projector is merely projecting a black bar. If it were projecting nothing, then there would be no light and it would look exactly like the black frame of your screen (assuming it has a black frame). Unless the Infocus has some type of curtain that frames the image in 2.35:1?
post #131 of 1992
luelf21,

Just a little clarification here. The black bars you see on an 16:9 screen while watching a 2:35 movie ARE being projected by the projector. Some film transfers encode 'black' above (more gray) the level they should and you will see what you describe as the blacks being lighter than the black bars. If your brightness is set correctly, the black bars represent the darkest blacks your 8602 will produce. Glad to hear you like the image from the 8602. I was hoping they would be able to keep the good parts of the IN83 and improve the blacks with the iris and it sounds like they did.
post #132 of 1992
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you are talking about the black bars that a 16:9 projector projects when reproducing a 2.35:1 aspect ratio image, then yes, it is being projected by the projector. I.e. the projector is merely projecting a black bar. If it were projecting nothing, then there would be no light and it would look exactly like the black frame of your screen (assuming it has a black frame). Unless the Infocus has some type of curtain that frames the image in 2.35:1?

my mistake, I was under the assupmtion they were not being projected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f300v10 View Post

luelf21,

Just a little clarification here. The black bars you see on an 16:9 screen while watching a 2:35 movie ARE being projected by the projector. Some film transfers encode 'black' above (more gray) the level they should and you will see what you describe as the blacks being lighter than the black bars. If your brightness is set correctly, the black bars represent the darkest blacks your 8602 will produce. Glad to hear you like the image from the 8602. I was hoping they would be able to keep the good parts of the IN83 and improve the blacks with the iris and it sounds like they did.

Man the film transfers really suck on pandorum then, because those black bars are EXTREMELY black...like inky black. the pandorum image with a completely black screen was merely a very dark gray. Very dissapointing, esspecially now knowing that the projector is capable of producing such a dark black as represented by the letterbox bars.
post #133 of 1992
"Man the film transfers really suck on pandorum then, because those black bars are EXTREMELY black...like inky black. "

When? Do you mean with other movies?
post #134 of 1992
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Man the film transfers really suck on pandorum then, because those black bars are EXTREMELY black...like inky black. "

When? Do you mean with other movies?

when watching pandorum, there are extremely dark scenes...pretty much complete darkness, but it only shows up as a very very dark gray (Darn near black, but not quite) but the letterbox bars actually show up much much darker (inky black), and as I just found out, this is because sometimes movies don't encode blacks as pure black, merely a very dark gray like I'm seeing. I haven't noticed this effect on other movies because no other movie I've watched has had a completely dark scene like pandorum.

Needless to say, if the letterbox bars represent exactly how dark the blacks are capable of getting, then all I can say is wow, because they are very black.
post #135 of 1992
Hi there. Can anyone offer advice into how much brightness impacts the overall wow of the picture? I'm told the output lumens of this projector aren't close to that of the IN83, but seeing as black levels, colour and sharpness are at least as good and sometimes much better, what would I be losing/trading?

Silly question maybe, but then lots of factors go into whether a picture looks bright (colours and depth) rather than just brightness.

I'd be viewing in a dark room most of the time, but that said I do tend to keep the iris of my In83 fairly open (between 70-100) at the moment.
post #136 of 1992
When anyone states the blacks from a digital projector are inky, I immediately cross them off the list of being a competent observer or reviewer at this point in time. Sorry and that doesn`t mean that one won`t become competent in the future, but no digital projector out there has great blacks. ome have better than others. Here is a little inky test for you. Project a film with black bars. That is a film with a higher aspect ration than 1.78. Now stick a finger or even your whole hand in the light path coming from the projector to the screen such that the finger or hand blocks part of the light projecting the black bars. Notice where your finger or hand blocks the light (casts a shadow), how much blacker that is. This is called the hand puppet test. Or project a black screen from say a test disc. How gray rather than inky black does that look. Its pathetic from all digitals. Digitals as this point in their development just don`t have inky blacks.
post #137 of 1992
Wow, don't be so critical. Descriptions of black levels are always relative depending upon the users experience. And in this case, luelf21's experience with the IN83 makes his descriptions the most valuable yet, because most people like myself are most interested in the black level differences between the SP8602 and the IN83. If he perceives the difference as an "inky" black difference, more than likely I would too.

It goes without saying that most people don't expect the blacks to be as good as the JVC RS series, but if the sharpness, contrast and "pop and wow" of DLP made the black level difference acceptable even with the IN83, then we would need luelf21's descriptions of his experiences with the IN83 and the SP8602 to determine the real value in the SP8602 at this point.
post #138 of 1992
I'm agree
post #139 of 1992
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

When anyone states the blacks from a digital projector are inky, I immediately cross them off the list of being an competent observer or reviewer. orry and that doesn`t mean that one won`t become competent in the future. But no digital projector out there has great blacks. Here =a little inky test for you. roject a film with black bars. That is a film with a higher aspect ration than 1.78. ow stick a fingure in the light path coming from the projector to the screen such that the fingure blocks part of the light projecting the black bars, notice where your fingure blocks the light, casts a shawdow, how much blacker that is. r project a black screen from say a test disc. ow gray rather than inky black does that look. ts pathetic from all digitals. igitals as this point in their development just don`t have inky blacks.



Noone claimed to be a competent reviewer here...I stated several times in the beginning that this is solely my opinion. But i must admit that you are right. The black bars are not in fact inky black, yet still very very black. Sorry for using the word inky, it was an attempt to explain the difference between the pandorum film and the black bars.

Yeah maybe digital projectors arent going to produce the blacks like from a CRT projector, but in a digital projector world, and in a digital projector thread, and in a forum filled with posts on digital projectors, the InFoucus SP8602 can produce a darn good black. CRT projectors aren't really a popular consumer type of rojector anymore, so all we really have is digital nowadays.

Im not sure the reason for your post, other than to call me out as a competent reviewer, which I never claimed to be. By the way, I don't take anyone seriously who mispells FINGER 3 times in two sentences, and mispells various other words in their posts...so your opinion is that of....lets say....a 7 year old. Yep, definately...I'd say that a 7 year old could match or beat your so called "paragraph".
post #140 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

When anyone states the blacks from a digital projector are inky, I immediately cross them off the list of being a competent observer or reviewer at this point in time.

Forums should surely have a mix of views and I don't think many people claim to be professional reviewers, but we do have an opinion that's worth sharing.

I haven't got a clue about what the exact optimum is of an image I'm viewing and, to be honest, I'm sure my preference isn't the exact, agreed, scientific, calibrated best.

That doesn't make my opinion any less valid and, to be honest, I'd rather hear a review from a more typical end user than someone who's got a little over serious about what makes a black black.

Of course its also just your point of view, which is fine, but I hope it doesn't deter people from giving their views – after all there isn't a huge amount of feedback on this projector yet, so it is great to hear from someone who's actually got one.
post #141 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

When anyone states the blacks from a digital projector are inky, I immediately cross them off the list of being a competent observer or reviewer at this point in time. Sorry and that doesn`t mean that one won`t become competent in the future, but no digital projector out there has great blacks. ome have better than others. Here is a little inky test for you. Project a film with black bars. That is a film with a higher aspect ration than 1.78. Now stick a finger or even your whole hand in the light path coming from the projector to the screen such that the finger or hand blocks part of the light projecting the black bars. Notice where your finger or hand blocks the light (casts a shadow), how much blacker that is. This is called the hand puppet test. Or project a black screen from say a test disc. How gray rather than inky black does that look. Its pathetic from all digitals. Digitals as this point in their development just don`t have inky blacks.

Mark that's a bit rude. He never claimed to be an expert but answer but provide answers to the best of its knowledge.

The reality is that Infocus screw-up the launch big time by not providing unit to professional reviewers.
post #142 of 1992
Also, who are these pros that can proclaim what the heck "inky" black means anyhow? "Inky" is NOT an absolute term whatsoever. It's just as relevant to the discussion of this projector as any other because "inky" is very much a relative term. In fact, I'd say that "inky" is so relative, that it's completely vague.

As I look at bold black text printed from my Epson Stylus C86 with factory ink, it's gray compared to the bezel on my monitor. My Epson Stylus R1800 is much more like the bezel, but the bezel still has the edge. Both are "ink", both differ, and both are inferior to a molded piece of plastic.

Whom ever determined that "inky" is the holy grail of black levels could use a lobotomy. Most inks are much less black the HP w2408h bezel. Next time I see a great projector, I'll say wow! That's much better than just "inky" black! that's "HP w2408h bezel" black!
post #143 of 1992
I agree with Mark, inky is a bad description and shouldn't be used. IMO Plasma's and Kuro's in particular are the only displays that qualify to use the term.

The question is how good are the blacks on the 8602 compared to other recent PJ's. Unfortunately I've been unable to find any relevant info to answer that question. Reviews are almost non-existent and the posters who've described their experience either lack the the knowledge or vocabulary to describe it accurately or have a limited frame of reference to compare. That's not a knock on the person posting it just means were limited in our individual experiences. Heck as much as I love reading Art's reviews he's sometimes all over the place when he compares black levels. It's hard to get an accurate placing of different PJ's other than the JVC's have the best blacks and DLP's some of the worst among current models. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. What we need is a reference point to compare black levels in print. Most of us either don't have the time and/or tools to measure black level so we need another way to describe it.
post #144 of 1992
It wasn`t my intent to be rude. Really. I am just trying to educate. Clearly the hand puppet test is a real good way to judge visually how the blacks really are and could lead to a more useful assessment by an owner. We all appreciate owners assessments. I myself have a digital projector where the blacks are not that good. I use a ND filter to improve them by a factor of 50%. The JVC RS35 and Sim2 Lumis have really good blacks for a digital, but they are certainly not inky. If I see such an assessment at least it calls into question the desriptive subjective terms used to describe what the owner sees. We all need some reference to base our observations on. But I do humbly apologise if my comments were taken as rude or offensive. That certainly was not my intent.

would add have the same feelings when see some owner comment that a certain projector is razor sharp. Especially when the owner has no real reference as to what projectors have great lenses and use a chip of sufficient size to permit STA sharpness.
post #145 of 1992
I think most would agree that "inky" has been well established as the norm as you've described. I feel it's a very silly norm, and that someone can still be a "competent observer" even if they don't apply the word "inky" to that norm as expected.

For as much has transpired over the years, the fact that a word like "inky" means anything at all says something about the infant state of the methods in which black levels are related to. You would think that by now, much more absolute and measurable terms would be used. Inky shouldn't be used for anything more than a cliche catch phrase for when someone is impressed, otherwise pretty much useless.
post #146 of 1992
You guys r way to hung up on the blacks if you guys want great blacks buy the jvc and have no pop and sharpness you can't have both for under 100000 you have two pages just on this atleast he is trying to help how about a simple question how does it look and r u happy. Please let me know mine will be here Saturday then we will know Thanks
post #147 of 1992
If Infocus is keeping to their delivery schedule the next shipment should be due in about a week. It might be interesting to note if there have been any changes in the firmware.
My unit which was one of the 1st out the door has;

Firmware A65-B021
Config 1.0
Boot V3.1
post #148 of 1992
I'll let you know sunday I just have to take my 7210 down put this up And calibrate it .
post #149 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by mprice68 View Post

Please let me know mine will be here Saturday then we will know Thanks

Congratulations, I can't wait to hear your impressions! Just don't say the sacred word. Have you seen the IN83?
post #150 of 1992
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I would add have the same feelings when see some owner comment that a certain projector is razor sharp. Especially when the owner has no real reference as to what projectors have great lenses and use a chip of sufficient size to permit STA sharpness.

Yeah, and these owners also have no real reference to how sharp a razor is. I've got a razor, but it's not very sharp. Actually it is going a bit rusty. Does that mean I can validly say the Optoma 65 is razor sharp and feel happy in my competence? Please, yes.
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