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Panasonic HDC-HS700 & HDC-TM700 1080p60 cams - Page 111

post #3301 of 3783
Technically to be loss-less you need something like HD Writer (which only works on Windows) or Video Redo (again only on Windows) which stitches a bunch of native 1080 60p files together.

For your case, you wont get loss less but if you export to a bit rate of around 30Mbps and 2 pass encode, you can get pretty close. Make sure it's really exporting to 60p rather than 60i.
post #3302 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post

Technically to be loss-less you need something like HD Writer (which only works on Windows) or Video Redo (again only on Windows) which stitches a bunch of native 1080 60p files together.

For your case, you wont get loss less but if you export to a bit rate of around 30Mbps and 2 pass encode, you can get pretty close. Make sure it's really exporting to 60p rather than 60i.

So is it better not to let imovie optimize the files then? Trying to decide which of my workflows is better.

Sure it still won't be lossless, but yeah it can be close. How can I tell if it is exporting 60p?
post #3303 of 3783
Anybody tried clipwrap to fix the problem? I'm experimenting with it right now and just realized this issue and found this thread.

Chris
post #3304 of 3783
Hey guys,

I just confirmed with Colin at ClipWrap that you can take your raw .mts files from the SD card, load it into ClipWrap, convert it to AIC, then import it directly into your editing program without any problems at all at full 1080/60p resolution. I'm testing it now to confirm using iMovie '11, and I'll post up the quick vid when it's done.

Chris
post #3305 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravencr View Post
Hey guys,

I just confirmed with Colin at ClipWrap that you can take your raw .mts files from the SD card, load it into ClipWrap, convert it to AIC, then import it directly into your editing program without any problems at all at full 1080/60p resolution. I'm testing it now to confirm using iMovie '11, and I'll post up the quick vid when it's done.

Chris
I can confirm 1080p60 input via this method in imovie 09....just not sure how to check the output....
post #3306 of 3783
I just uploaded a 1 minute video using ClipWrap to convert it to AIC, then imported it into iMovie, then exported it at only a 1Mb/sec bit rate, which produces a really small 8.5mb/min file size, which as you can see is too low for 1080 footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmVnIHsVTrU

Is it stuttery on your computers? Jittery? Obviously it's pixelated too much, because of the bit rate. In comparison, here's a clip shot in 720/60p using the same exact output settings, but at the lower resolution HD, but still at only 1Mb/sec bit rate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crCNZtIQlJA

Pretty big difference, and that file size is only 17.6mb for 1:40 clip. So, I'm going to experiment a bit with the bit rate and see at what point the 1080 footage begins to look as good as the 720 footage...then it's just a matter of deciding whether the extra file size is worth it or not. The problem for me, though, is I don't really have an option with the TM700 like I do with my HMC40 to pick 720/60p. It appears I can only shoot in 1080 with the TM700K...is that correct?

Chris
post #3307 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravencr View Post

.... It appears I can only shoot in 1080 with the TM700K...is that correct?

Yes, that's exact. Either in 1080p at 28Mbps (VBR), or 1080i at four different quality levels; HE:5Mbps, HX:9Mbps, HG:13Mbps, or HA:17Mbps (all Variable Bit Rates).
post #3308 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravencr View Post

I just uploaded a 1 minute video using ClipWrap to convert it to AIC, then imported it into iMovie, then exported it at only a 1Mb/sec bit rate, which produces a really small 8.5mb/min file size, which as you can see is too low for 1080 footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmVnIHsVTrU

Is it stuttery on your computers? Jittery? Obviously it's pixelated too much, because of the bit rate. In comparison, here's a clip shot in 720/60p using the same exact output settings, but at the lower resolution HD, but still at only 1Mb/sec bit rate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crCNZtIQlJA

Pretty big difference, and that file size is only 17.6mb for 1:40 clip. So, I'm going to experiment a bit with the bit rate and see at what point the 1080 footage begins to look as good as the 720 footage...then it's just a matter of deciding whether the extra file size is worth it or not. The problem for me, though, is I don't really have an option with the TM700 like I do with my HMC40 to pick 720/60p. It appears I can only shoot in 1080 with the TM700K...is that correct?

Chris

Are you happy with your TM700? I'm still searching but about 95%, I like TM700 based from reviews.
post #3309 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Are you happy with your TM700? I'm still searching but about 95%, I like TM700 based from reviews.

Yeah, still learning the differences between it and my more professional model the HMC40. The confusing thing is the TM700 shoots 1080/60p, and the HMC40 only shoots 1080/60i, unfortunately. As far as the TM700 goes, I love it for it's size, the quality of the video is just as good or better than my HMC40, but you do lose a few of the professional features of the HMC40. But, I guess it all depends on what you're using it for. What's your plan for it?

Chris
post #3310 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Yes, that's exact. Either in 1080p at 28Mbps (VBR), or 1080i at four different quality levels; HE:5Mbps, HX:9Mbps, HG:13Mbps, or HA:17Mbps (all Variable Bit Rates).

Do you know if it's possible to shoot using 1080/60p, then before importing into iMovie downsize it to 720/60p without losing any quality? Based on what I'm finding today on editing 1080 material versus 720 material and imovie's handling of interlaced footage poorly, I'm thinking this might be the best thing for me to do, considering I shoot with the hmc40 and the tm700 all the time. Anyone know of such an animal that would do that without losing any quality?

Chris
post #3311 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravencr View Post

Do you know if it's possible to shoot using 1080/60p, then before importing into iMovie downsize it to 720/60p without losing any quality? Based on what I'm finding today on editing 1080 material versus 720 material and imovie's handling of interlaced footage poorly, I'm thinking this might be the best thing for me to do, considering I shoot with the hmc40 and the tm700 all the time. Anyone know of such an animal that would do that without losing any quality?

Chris

I know that on the TM700, provided you use an SD card, you can convert from 1080p to 1080i internally. You simply record 1080p in internal memory, then you copy/convert to 1080i and it is written on the SD card. No external computer required. The result is even slightly better than if it was filmed in 1080i originally, because of the extra vertical resolution to begin with. Notice the word slightly here.

Anyway you look at it, if you start by recording in progressive mode at high resolution and then convert down from that material, there's no reason it shouldn't look good. Unless you select a ridiculously low bit rate of course!

Unfortunately the TM700 is a "full HD only" camcorder, so no 720p here. I've never tried to convert to 720p in FCP, but I assume it would still look great at comparable bit rates to the original.
post #3312 of 3783
Well, I'd like to convert it from from 1080/60p to 720/60p before I even import it into the editing software, because I mix and match footage from both cameras into the same videos.

Chris
post #3313 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravencr View Post

Yeah, still learning the differences between it and my more professional model the HMC40. The confusing thing is the TM700 shoots 1080/60p, and the HMC40 only shoots 1080/60i, unfortunately. As far as the TM700 goes, I love it for it's size, the quality of the video is just as good or better than my HMC40, but you do lose a few of the professional features of the HMC40. But, I guess it all depends on what you're using it for. What's your plan for it?

Chris

Just would like to have nice high quality video of events/happenings/occasions. But I also would like to do some experiments similar to what I see in youtube or video. They call it short films. I've done few research about it by adding diy 35mm dof adapter.
post #3314 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by v1rtu0s1ty View Post

Just would like to have nice high quality video of events/happenings/occasions. But I also would like to experiments similar to what I see in youtube or video. They call it short films. I've done few research about adding diy 35mm dof adapter.

Well, if size is an issue, then I'd say the TM700 for sure. I don't think there's another better equipped camera on the market for the money right now, except for maybe this one, but it's a little more money.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-bro...duct-HXRMC50U/

I'm not familiar with the sensor it's using, but I've heard it's pretty good in low light, which is the downfall to the TM700 or HMC40. How much pro level adjustment are you looking for?

Chris
post #3315 of 3783
I take back my statement about about the Sony, unless you need better low light performance. Otherwise, the TM700 offers way more pro-level features from best I can tell. Pick up a Rode Videomic and some audio technic wireless lav's and your sound will be awesome and controllable with the tm700.

Chris
post #3316 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravencr View Post
I'm not familiar with the sensor it's using, but I've heard it's pretty good in low light, which is the downfall to the TM700 or HMC40. How much pro level adjustment are you looking for?

Chris
Maybe like aperture and iso would be enough. I've never had an hd camera or pro camera so I don't know what to look for. But I read that TM700 has a minimum 1.5f which is great!

That link you sent is way too much for what I need. I think TM700 will be enough for me.
post #3317 of 3783
You'll like the TM700, and you'll find it more prosumer than that Sony anyways, so you'll have the best of both worlds.

Chris
post #3318 of 3783
Here's the rest of the videos I uploaded yesterday testing ClipWrap and 1080/60p output from the TM700. I'm most interested to hear if you guys can tell which side is better of the side by side comparisons I did, because you'll be amazed at the file size difference.

But, I'm still perplexed with my stupid MBP...still jittery, yet even when I play these videos on my iphone they're silky smooth. Very weird and annoying...guess an upgrade is needed still.

http://www.youtube.com/user/hmc40vid...ature=mhum#p/p

Chris
post #3319 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by August1991 View Post


I'm shopping both cameras now too. In fact, I've decided to conduct my own A/B test. I'll post my opinions in an appropriate thread. In particular, I'm curious to see with my own eyes if the TM700's PQ bests the CX550V - and by how much, under what conditions.

I decided on the TM700. Both cameras are excellent. I found the Sony to be more "forgiving" in low-light situations. In good lighting, the TM700 outperformed the Sony. Again, both were great cameras. I use my camcorder to film phone screens and the Sony wasn't close in that category. If it weren't for that, I would have picked the Sony. The Sony also feels more solid and feature-rich.

You cannot go wrong with either.
post #3320 of 3783
Hi all,
Also don't forget the "Remote Control" features.
The 700 obviously works Great for Playback of your Videos and Pictures (at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Birthdays or anytime) to your HDTV.
I was at my Sister & Brother In Laws house for Thanksgiving...Later in the evening I connected the 700 to my Sisters HDTV via HDMI,
gathered everyone around and We All had Showtime!
The 700 could Fast Forward, Pause and Reverse through any of it's Videos and or Pictures with a touch of the Remote!
Also when playing back Videos the 700 will naturally run in succession from Video to Video, meaning that you do not have to individually play each file,
just start at whichever Video you want and the 700 will play naturally through them all.
Nice Picture Slideshow as well and you can adjust how quickly or slowly you want the pictures to pass.
You can also easily swap back and forth from the Internal Memory to SD Card and not get out of your chair!

It was really nice that with everyone around and after shooting throughout the day, we could all sit down and enjoy instant Video and Picture Time.
Everyone going from Laughing to Oohs and Ahhs..and Baby Footage that people always Melt at!
At that time alone, the TM-700 showed all of us, just what a Great little Camcorder this is!
I had relatives and friends asking me afterward...Which Camcorder is that ...while writing down the Model number etc...I am sure that I sold a few that night! LOL!
Christmas should be equally Great!

I just thought that I'd throw out this FYI..Have your own ShowTime and Enjoy!

Enjoy the Holidays Everyone and don't forget the 700!

Bud B
post #3321 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post

Hi all,
Also don't forget the "Remote Control" features.
The 700 obviously works Great for Playback of your Videos and Pictures (at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Birthdays or anytime) to your HDTV.
I was at my Sister & Brother In Laws house for Thanksgiving...Later in the evening I connected the 700 to my Sisters HDTV via HDMI,
gathered everyone around and We All had Showtime!
The 700 could Fast Forward, Pause and Reverse through any of it's Videos and or Pictures with a touch of the Remote!
Also when playing back Videos the 700 will naturally run in succession from Video to Video, meaning that you do not have to individually play each file,
just start at whichever Video you want and the 700 will play naturally through them all.
Nice Picture Slideshow as well and you can adjust how quickly or slowly you want the pictures to pass.
You can also easily swap back and forth from the Internal Memory to SD Card and not get out of your chair!

It was really nice that with everyone around and after shooting throughout the day, we could all sit down and enjoy instant Video and Picture Time.
Everyone going from Laughing to Oohs and Ahhs..and Baby Footage that people always Melt at!
At that time alone, the TM-700 showed all of us, just what a Great little Camcorder this is!
I had relatives and friends asking me afterward...Which Camcorder is that ...while writing down the Model number etc...I am sure that I sold a few that night! LOL!
Christmas should be equally Great!

I just thought that I'd throw out this FYI..Have your own ShowTime and Enjoy!

Enjoy the Holidays Everyone and don't forget the 700!

Bud B

Awesome!

Today, while I was driving, wife said that she has many packages that she ordered from online that will be arriving pretty soon. She told me not to open it because it's for Christmas games prices. Hmmm, I'm hoping she's tricking me. HAHAHA! Or maybe, I'm just dreaming about TM700. HEHEHE!
post #3322 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bizrank View Post

I have used nothing but SDHC cards, and have tried both root folder structures, but I have the same results as you do. Wish I could figure out why the player seems to default to Navigator and Jpeg blanks.

Bizrank,
I had success with the files Ungerman provided by using MultiAvchd. I created an sd card format for Panasonic players and it worked. You should try that. Not sure why it worked as opposed to just putting the files in the right folder structure, but it is probably due to some missing files, ie thumbnails and such, that needed to be created.
post #3323 of 3783
Hi all!

I do not think that Panasonic xx600\\700 to be color accurate, it seems more cool blue/green bias, this is mostly apparent when shooting skies or other blue objects.

When scene has no blue objects but has green\ urquoise color, then a really black object of scene seems to be a green bias.

Even after adjusting manual White Balance (WB) the bondi blue color disappears but then returns again AUTOMATICALLY after several seconds or if you turn off camcorder and then turn on it again.

It's not clear wether this bondi blue effect is connected with WB function or not. But manual WB is unable to avoid a cool blue/green effect in these models Panasonic xx600\\700!

Please, see attached pictures.

See the blue\\green bias of the wall to the left (on the first video frame)
and the color of the bridge (on the second video frame).

Have you any solution? Do you think that this problem is a bug?

Thank you for any ideas!
LL
LL
post #3324 of 3783
Hi Myg,
I went over my pictures taken with my TM700 since your post, and I have a lot!
I do not see the phenomenon that you describe.
I have pictures that I have taken in picture mode, pictures taken while shooting video and screen shots taken from the video via CyberLink's PowerDVD10.
Pictures from inside and against a clear Blue Sky!
I always use Auto Everything and I never use Manual WB.
I have some nice pictures of a Waterfall under a clear blue sky that has stone walls around the falls, and all the walls are of natural stone, no blue tint.

Is the blue you see in everything?

Also were these pictures taken from inside a car or while standing outside, the bridge looks like maybe from a car.
I have natural tinted windows in my car that have a slight Blue/Green color to them and I see the difference boldly when I roll down my windows as I am shooting Video.
I will keep a look out for this but at least in my case, my pictures and video do not seem to duplicate what your pictures show.
I am sure that light can play funny things with lenses..nothing is as perfect as the human eye!

Tell me more!

Bud B
post #3325 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud B View Post
Hi Myg,
I went over my pictures taken with my TM700 since your post, and I have a lot!
I do not see the phenomenon that you describe.
I have pictures that I have taken in picture mode, pictures taken while shooting video and screen shots taken from the video via CyberLink's PowerDVD10.
Pictures from inside and against a clear Blue Sky!
I always use Auto Everything and I never use Manual WB.
I have some nice pictures of a Waterfall under a clear blue sky that has stone walls around the falls, and all the walls are of natural stone, no blue tint.
Is the blue you see in everything?
Hi, Bud B!
Theses photos were produced with AWB.
But see this clip of one man that demostrates how to avoid the bondi blue color by means of manual WB and preset Lamp 2:
http://vimeo.com/17980433

This clip demonstrates:

1) See a bondi blue color of the snow and the sky
2) Switch to a manual White Balance
3) Set the manual WB by means of WB cap.
4) Switch to preset of WB (Lamp 2)
5) Switch back to manual WB installed before.
6) The color of the sky will change from bondi blue to normal blue.

Very strange that I must switch to Lamp 2 preset to avoid bondi blue color!

See also the two combined frames:
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4...00bondiblu.png
Which color is more accurate for you?

No, you can see the blue\\green bias only on several clips.
I have noticed that if I shoot an object that is situated under direct light (please see an attached frames) there is no the such effect.

Quote:
Also were these pictures taken from inside a car or while standing outside, the bridge looks like maybe from a car.


Tell me more!

Bud B
No, the pic of bridge was taken while standing outside, not from the car (in AWB mode).
LL
LL
post #3326 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post
Hi all!

I do not think that Panasonic xx600\\700 to be color accurate, it seems more cool blue/green bias, this is mostly apparent when shooting skies or other blue objects.

When scene has no blue objects but has green\ urquoise color, then a really black object of scene seems to be a green bias.

Even after adjusting manual White Balance (WB) the bondi blue color disappears but then returns again AUTOMATICALLY after several seconds or if you turn off camcorder and then turn on it again.

It's not clear wether this bondi blue effect is connected with WB function or not. But manual WB is unable to avoid a cool blue/green effect in these models Panasonic xx600\\700!

Please, see attached pictures.

See the blue\\green bias of the wall to the left (on the first video frame)
and the color of the bridge (on the second video frame).

Have you any solution? Do you think that this problem is a bug?

Thank you for any ideas!
Something like this?
LL
post #3327 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post
Technically to be loss-less you need something like HD Writer (which only works on Windows) or Video Redo (again only on Windows) which stitches a bunch of native 1080 60p files together.

For your case, you wont get loss less but if you export to a bit rate of around 30Mbps and 2 pass encode, you can get pretty close. Make sure it's really exporting to 60p rather than 60i.
I have to disagree about videoredo it's lossy it drops the bitrate to 18Mbps, I tried it and it doesn't produce the same type of file, how I know? when you hit save as and choose the same folder as the native files in the save as window you don't see the native files no matter what output format you choose on the drop down box, HD writer is a retarded software at least for me I couldn't get it to recognize the 60p files that I tranfered from the SD card to my portable hard drive ( I appreciate the help to figure out what's the problem) so the only software that helped me stitch back the files is TSMuxer it doesn't touch the files it just connect them together simlessely on top of that it's free, I have to figure out how to edit the unwanted scenes losselessely though.
post #3328 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by myg View Post

Hi, Bud B!
Theses photos were produced with AWB.
But see this clip of one man that demostrates how to avoid the bondi blue color by means of manual WB and preset Lamp 2:
http://vimeo.com/17980433

This clip demonstrates:

1) See a bondi blue color of the snow and the sky
2) Switch to a manual White Balance
3) Set the manual WB by means of WB cap.
4) Switch to preset of WB (Lamp 2)
5) Switch back to manual WB installed before.
6) The color of the sky will change from bondi blue to normal blue.

Very strange that I must switch to Lamp 2 preset to avoid bondi blue color!

See also the two combined frames:
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/4...00bondiblu.png
Which color is more accurate for you?

No, you can see the blue\\green bias only on several clips.
I have noticed that if I shoot an object that is situated under direct light (please see an attached frames) there is no the such effect.

No, the pic of bridge was taken while standing outside, not from the car (in AWB mode).



Okay. I think I know what's going on here. In manual mode, switching between LAMP2 and MANUAL will disable the previous one-shot manual calibration that you've performed with the (white?) cap on. This will be revealed by the flashing manual icon. In order to perform a correct manual white balance adjustment, you should point the camcorder at the snow and then select one-shot manual (flashing manual button), set it ( the camcorder picture will go black for a second) and then leave it there(manual mode icon not flashing). Anytime you select another preset, you cancel your previous manual adjusment. Yes, as I wrote in another thread, this camcorder sometimes has some difficulty in setting a proper WB. But I've always managed to get good results by using/setting manual WB myself, and locking it so it doesn't change by itself.
post #3329 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post

I have to disagree about videoredo it's lossy it drops the bitrate to 18Mbps, I tried it and it doesn't produce the same type of file, how I know? when you hit save as and choose the same folder as the native files in the save as window you don't see the native files no matter what output format you choose on the drop down box

You're confused. They don't show up because VideoReDo doesn't bother saving in the legacy filename (.mts on the cam and .m2ts on the output). That doesn't mean it re-encodes the audio or video.

Quote:


Files in AVCHD format use legacy "8.3" file naming convention, while Blu-ray Discs use long filenames. That's why the filename extension of video files is ".MTS" instead of Blu-ray Disc's ".m2ts". Also other files use different extensions: .CPI - .clpi, .MPL - .mpls, .BDM - .bdmv.[11][16]
post #3330 of 3783
Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post

Yes, as I wrote in another thread, this camcorder sometimes has some difficulty in setting a proper WB. But I've always managed to get good results by using/setting manual WB myself, and locking it so it doesn't change by itself.

Hi, alainhubert!

Remember last summer: a few people saw a shaking\\jittering effect.
It was difficult to convince...

But the problem now solved and firmware update released.

One user has reported recently that it is not possible to avoid a bondi blue color in Panasonic xx600\\700 camcorder.

See a short clip, how it works:
http://www.vimeo.com/18058557

See how bondi blue color restores AUTOMATICALLY even after setting a manual WB

Regards,
MYG
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