Sony HDR-CX550V or Panasonic HDC-TM700? - Page 3  

It only shoots in 1080 60i.



Panasonic TM700 = 1080 24p within 60i(Need to remove pull-down) & 1080 60p
Canon HF S21 = Native 1080 24p.

I hear Edius Neo 2 Booster removes perfectly fine just like CineForm.

Thanks for the info and the 1080p suggestions.

Hi everyone!

I've been a bit unlucky yesterday, wrote my questions, and than avsforum went down and couldn't post.. so I hope I'll remember everything

Anyway, I'm looking into buying my first HD cam, and main purpose would be shooting next season of ice hockey games. I was very glad that there was a line about Panasonic having no problem tracking ice hockey player, I just thought "geez, what are the odds"

Anyway, except Panasonic (TM700,my first choice), and Sony (CX550, my second choice), which are mostly discussed here, there is also a possibility of taking Canon HF S20. I'm not bothered by amount of integrated memory, as 32GB should be plenty for my needs, and SD cards are usually cheaper (and more versatile) than going for higher-capacity camera. But I do have an issue with Canon having only stereo microphone built-in (?). I've read specs 10x, but Id' still like to check with you people, I mean, both Sony and Panasonic state they've got 5.1 surround mic on camera, I don't expect it to be eye-popping-wow quality, but I do want 5.1 if I'm spending 1000€ (Europe prices :/ ) on camera.. And Canon asks 250$ (€ in EU) for 5.1 external mic, which is quarter of cam price! That's main reason why Canon is third on my list...

So if anyone can clear that sound thing that's bothering me I'd be thankful.

And again, back to my hockey skaters.. I'm gonna shoot games from hand, from crowd, indoors of course, not under terrible, but not either great lighting, and you know how fast action can sometimes be, specially catching the puck flying to the goal and stuff.. For something like this, I'm presuming that Panasonic with 60p would be perfect. Right? Or is that kind of lighting, combined with a lot of shakes already enough for Sony to have upper hand despite not having progressive recording?

And I've seen several people here saying that Class 6 SD card is bare minimum. But at 28Mbps (at Panasonic, and ok, some mention 30-32Mbps peaks), wouldn't even Class 4 be enough? Class 4 is 4 megabytes per second, x8 if I'm not mistaken, that's 32 megabits per second. Sure, if peaks are around 32, that's mighty close .. I'm asking cos I've already have class 4 16GB card, so I'd like to check your opinion

Thanks all!

EDIT: One more thing. Do cams bought in USA have a choice in menu for PAL/NTSC or not? As I'm thinking of perhaps ordering one through family friends from US, due to USD/EUR "conversion" which would save me some 25% in price that I can than spend on additional equipment

I used a CX500V to film a college hockey game and it was like watching it on ESPN. Lighting was perfect, it was like being there. The Sony image stabilization is KEY.

You only need a Class 4 card, don't waste your money on 6

Thanks for a quick reply, just what I've needed! That means that Panasonic and Sony are now tied until reviews start pouring in And you've saved me some $$

Anyone who thinks getting a Class 6 SDHC card to use with a HD camcorder in 2010 is a waste is not thinking straight. A Class 6 card only cost a few bucks more and will load HD video to a PC faster and is more future proof if you upgrade to a 1080p60 camcorder or VDSLR.
http://www.amazon.com/Transcend-Clas...8674266&sr=8-1

I've read every review and post I can about these two cameras (and the new Canon). I don't have a BD burner, although I have a PS3. I've been a home theater and IT nut for some time, so I understand the basics of the technology. However, if I:

1. own a Mac and photoshop and don't really want to mess with more expensive or complex editing software unless I have to

2. don't own a BD burner, so will for now, have to use my Mac to burn (I think) standard DVDs or watch movies from the camcorder

3. want to pop in the SD/SX cards to my Mac and have it upload them easily for editing.

I don't mind some converting, but have no clue what iMovie will recognize or what benefits you lose in 1080p/60, or which modes iMovie will or won't recognize, and which bit rate speed will upload or have to be converted, etc.

If I end up burning everything to standard 480p DVDs (at least for now), am I wasting money on these high end consumer camcorders? I have no idea if there will be a BD burner for the Mac at some point, or a stand alone that i can use with either the Panny or Sony. I would consider that if it was easy. I'm afraid that I'm getting caught up in features and (while I want to use manual controls - I use them on my Nikon DSLRs), I wonder if it'll be such a pain to get the videos uploaded, edited and burned that I'll regret it. Is there a simple formula - like, oh, just use 19Mbps or less, use 1080/60i (or substitute in what would work) and, everything will be peachy keen and simple, or is it more complicated than that?

The 1080i 16/17 Mbs M2TS files from the Sony cams play back beautifully through a PS3. Not sure about the newer Sony 24 Mbs ones. I have my video, pictures, music, etc. all on a USB drive attached to the PS3. You need to set the folders up a certain way at the very top, but below that, you don't even have to embed the M2TS files in any Blu-Ray like structure or wrapper. The PS3 can play the native files. So I just name the file something descriptive, put it in descriptively named folders, and browse around at will.

If you have an HDTV and the PS3, you're much of the way towards excellent playback capabilities. Actually, you can put the M2TS files on the PS3's drive as well, I just have all my clips on the USB drive and my 10 favorite ones on the PS3 hard drive so you see thumbnail scenic icons for those.

I do not know if u guys skipped these videos that I made, but u can compare the hs350 and the xr550 in low light :

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W6WRRRA5

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=F5424XWD


hs350 IA with low lux on

xr550 Auto with low lux on

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VKQ4N1PK

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8J9PYE47


http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T87I5IQT

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DC0WIOLQ


enjoy and pls give some feedback with your opinion

tx

Thanks for the PS3 info, but what if I want the flexibility to download the files from either one of these onto a Mac, edit with imovie and then burn it in a way that minimizes the hassle factor (maybe this means a combination of settings in the video camera when recording and the ultimate media chosen), and maximizes the resolution. Surely, there must be an easy way to use either of these that will work without having a BD burner, and that will work well in a PS3, or maybe even a standard DV (for family).

Can anyone with a Mac comment??

I'm no expert, and have also been reading everything possible in preparation for starting in HD video.
For starters, have you looked in the Apple/Community/iMovie forums? Many more people with Macs asking and answering the same questions.
Also you don't say which Mac you have, but I've read that Intel based Macs, and iMovie 09 will recognize AVCHD files. Whether it will recognize the 1060p at 28Mbps in the new Panny, I'm not sure. iMovie converts the files to AIC to work on them.
Users have told me that these edited movies burned to an SD DVD are acceptable, though I'm sure the answer is not as simple as that. At any rate, the question that should be asked is what you want to do with these DVD's. If it is just for sharing with family, that would probably be a acceptable media. However, I would not want to archive my original video in this manner, and probably would be a waste for personal viewing, considering the expense of the camcorder.
From what I've been able to gather, many are storing their original AVCHD files on large capacity external drives, for the time when BD media, players and burners become the standard. Others have suggested the use of so called "media players" (which are fancy hard drives) for storing and playing HD video content.
So what's the point of an expensive HD camcorder? The video it produces is amazing. And if you simply plug the camera into a HD TV it would be the simplest way to enjoy it, but admittedly difficult to share with friends and family, and then the problem of archiving and editing. But at this point I don't think that the whole medium has matured yet.

Thanks ddt. That makes a lot of sense. I've got 2 Macs - a 1 year old destop and new macbook pro - both intel based - and both with imovie 09. As you say, the trouble with the new stuff is that while playing from the camera to an HDTV might blow us away, it's not the same as archiving or sharing with people. I want to be able to do both well without losing the technology that I'm paying for - whether it be 1080p/60 or whatever one step down is.

I've got a fairly new Marantz 1080p projector that I got from AVS and a 2:35:1 10'wide screen with a PS3 that I'd like to watch videos on. For that purpose, no doubt they'll look great. But I'd like to put the videos on media that I can port anywhere. I can try uploading video from whichever camera to the Mac, let it downsample it, burn to a SDVD and play it on the PS3, which will then upscale it to 1080p again. I just wonder how that'll look, but it won't be as good as the native video.

I'm also confused since whatever speed the video is encoded (28Mbps?) is NOT AVHCD, what is it (MPEG-4?) and will a Mac recognize that?

And is there an external BD burner for the Mac? I read about people using an external hard drive (for archival), but it has to be FAT32 (I think I read this) and I forgot whether the Mac can just read (but not write to) FAT 32 or can't handle it at all.

I wish someone could tell me if either the SONY or Panny will be easier/more compatible with current portable burning technology and the Mac. There must be someone who knows a "formula" for the simplest way to go to burn on 1. an SDVD and 2. BD. Like a recipe. e.g., options: For Sdvd: 1. set the camera to [resolution/Mbps]; 2. video as normal; 3. use [one of these easy to find and use software programs] to put video on [PC] and [one of these - could be iMovie - for Mac]; 4. before erasing the SD cards, burn the native file to an external hard drive [such as this or that]; 5. burn to Sdvd on DVD -R; and the same idea for BD. I know how many people on this forum know tons more than me, so I think it's a matter of finding the right people and getting them interested enough to take time to do something like this.

I do need to figure out the Mac forum, but PC users could benefit as well.

This thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1142704

has information about using 60p in iMovie. It was written concerning Sanyo camcorders, such as the FH1, which can shoot 60p. Presumably the TM700 60p mode would work the same way. Note that the 60p mode is not AVCHD.

I use the CX550 with 60i and iMovie 09. The workflow is very simple. In iMovie there is a choice to create an archive of what is stored on the camcorder. This is basically a file copy preserving all of the file structure. At any point in the future, you can them import clips from the archive into iMovie, which transcodes them into AIC (apple intermediate codec). You get a choice of Large (960X540) or Full (1920X1080) on import. For a project which is going to an SD DVD, Large is fine. The nice thing is the archive is always there, if you want to import later at Full. Just keep the archive backed up, and you are safe.

Also, the CX550 has a mode in which you can directly attach a USB drive to it (without using a computer) and can copy to the USB drive and play movies and photos from that drive.

LuxZg said "And again, back to my hockey skaters.. I'm gonna shoot games from hand, from crowd, indoors of course, not under terrible, but not either great lighting, and you know how fast action can sometimes be, specially catching the puck flying to the goal and stuff.. For something like this, I'm presuming that Panasonic with 60p would be perfect. Right? Or is that kind of lighting, combined with a lot of shakes already enough for Sony to have upper hand despite not having progressive recording?"

Don't take a mere statement that shooting hockey at 60i is ok. Here is a hockey video, indoors, shot at 1080, 60i with a shutter speed of 1/60th, 17Mbps, handheld:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU95lNvgLQo

I think these are fine (choose to watch at 1080p). The videos look much better before YouTube conversion, of course.

Olympics hockey was shot at 60i and looked great, so you do not need progressive unless you are interested in slo-mo.

Great thread!

So I'm looking to purchase the best camcorder for the buck... These are pretty much the exact conditions and types of video I'm going to be shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEHWTKxht2c

I'd like to be able to zoom into those fish in high quality in as many lighting conditions available. Look at the insect shots too. I'm expecting to get a helluva lot better quality in what I purchase.

A few more questions i have... My present camcorder is a Sony DCR-PC110. Top of the line by todays standards! One of the things I really disliked about this camcorder was that if you left it alone to do things like video tape yourself, it would shutdown and I couldn't find a menu item to keep it running.

Anyhow, my main concern is what you see in that video keeping in mind that those lighting conditions will change drastically from overcast to sunny.

I'd also like the option of a waterproof housing but it's not mandatory at the moment.


Thanks!

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921666073177

Sony lists both the SPK-HCF and the SPK-HCE as being compatible with the CX550 and XR550.

Right now the SPK-HCE is available at B&H for $111.95. I have one on order.

Things that I really like about the Sony:

*Extra wide angle for kids' sports close ups (the Panny says it's a 35mm wide lens). Sony's says 28.7 in 16x9 mode.

*Some say superior image stabilization

*one touch recording onto an HDD

*availability of Sony device which connects to the 550v and created DVD-R at 17Mbps playable on my PS3 (still researching).

*64GB built in memory

*bigger LCD (3.5" vs. 3")

Things that concern me about the Sony:

*10x vs 12x zoom (I don't want to use the digital or smart zoom much as it can degrade image quality)

*not compatable with the new SDXC cards

*no 60p mode (I don't really know if this is a big deal as I don't think for now, I'll be able to create 1080/60p (which I think is at 28Mbps and NOT AVHCD) disks that can play on anything - even if I had a BD burner, I don't think my PS3 can (yet) handle them. Right?

Is this 60p issue really an issue if I have to use my intel based Mac (and likely imovie although I'm open to other apps), change it to the mac codec and then burn it to a DVD (likely an sDVD)?

* need a mini adaptor for some accessories (I think a light, mic or both) and easier to use Sony branded cables (not a huge deal)

Things I like about the TM700

*Price - a bit cheaper
*12x zoom
*1080p/60p (see above; would like non-bias opinions on whether this is a big deal in real life uploading, converting and burning situations, and not just in archiving for the future)
*more manual controls - I use them on my Nikon D80 SLR, but don't know if I'd use them on my video camera. I'm not trying to only carry a video camera, so I don't care as much about the photo pic quality as some do.
*night mode
*SDXC card compatable (although they're very expensive now)

I wish the Panny had a 3.5" LCD, more built in memory, the stabilization of the Sony (I don't know whether it's really superior, but that's what everyone seems to say), and a one touch copy.

On the other hand, I wish the Sony had an SDXC card slot, a longer zoom (I've got plenty of camera lenses that are full range - like 18-210 - so I'm not sure other than size why the camcorders can't have the same thing), and a 60p mode.

So what now? I know I have to weigh what's more important, but it's all important. The most important thing would be ease of getting video onto my Mac and media for watching and giving out (for now, sDVDs, and maybe BD down the road). Either way (with Panny 1080/60p - 28mbps non-AVHCD or 17mbps AVHCD or Sony 1080/60i - which I think is 24Mbps or the 17mbps modes), it's still have to convert in iMovie (or one of the other Mac apps which I might get) and then again to burn on a DVD. So should 60p vs. 60i matter?

Is the zoom really a big deal?

Since SD cards are so cheap now, should I really worry that the Sony doesn't take the new SDXC cards?

How can I decide? Anyone having the same issue or any words of wisdom?

Sony just can't win . People complain about them supporting only Memory Sticks and not SD, so they add SD to the mix this year, but now it has to be the latest and greatest SDCX? Wouldn't those be so expensive it removes the supposed benefit of SD - cheaper than Memory sticks and usable in more devices?

Anyway, I'm really adding a comment that it's not the raw zoom level that counts, it's the focal lengths on the low and high sides. There's a website address given somewhere on the camcorder forums that let's you model what the focal lengths will show you against still photos. I had always kind of assumed that 12x was "better" than 10x as I like distance shooting, but hadn't picked up on it being 10 x what? and 12 x what? that you needed to know. I actually prefer the CX500V over the CX550V because it gives up some wide angle I don't particularly need for more telephoto range. But you need to translate the two cams' capabilities to focal ranges instead of just comparing zoom quantities.

I have also avoided digital zooms like the plague but some CX500V YouTube clips show it being used at 20x digital and it actually looked pretty good.

If you haven't checked the clip posted here recently that does side by side comparisons of a CX550V and an FX1, you should check it out. It has some demos in it re stabilization on and off and the difference is great.

There seems to be an attitude that not having 60p is a disadvantage. 60p at this time creates extra steps in workflow, and for what gain? 60p footage would give very good slow motion played at 30p, and if you absolutely need that, it might be worth the extra steps in the workflow, but I want to simplify, not complicate things. On the other hand, standard 60i footage looks great. As others have pointed out, weren't the Olympics broadcast in 1080 60i? Was there any problem in fast motion sports?

I have a camcorder that can record in 1080 60p, 60i, 30p (the Sanyo FH1A), yet I found myself always using 60i, after experimenting with 60p and 30p. I still have the FH1A, but also bought the CX550, for several reasons, including great OIS, a viewfinder, and numerous other features.

As for the PS3 handling 60p, I think that it has been stated in other threads that there are problems with 60p on the PS3. I believe one of the Sanyo threads has some information about which media players handle 60p properly.

Tom,

I hear you about Sony and the SD card issue. If that was the only issue, I wouldn't care much. And at the price of a couple of the new cards, I can get a much larger HDD, so it evens out. I'm by no means a Sony basher, and I LOVE my PS3. It's my reference BD player for my home theater set up. I bypassed gear that some home theater snob friends of mine think is superior.

That said, I will look at the zoom comparison. But even that's not determinitive.

It seems like 1-touch transfer and larger LCD on the Sony vs. the 60p on the Panny and new SD format (for the future).

It really sounds like I can't go wrong, but I wish there was something bigger to differentiate one from the other.

Based on last year's models the Sony's did have the best stabilizer but it's been mentioned a few times that the stabilizer in the TM700 is much better than the previous models.

For me, I've always liked having manual controls and and the thought of having 1080 60p as an added bonus seals the deal. For some people the thought of not having to put an extra layer of glass on the Sony is heaven. In Canon's favor, having native 24p from the beginning allows you to edit your 24p footage immediately after you shot something. Never mind the fact their are people who doesn't know that you have to remove pull-down beforehand.

Still, I feel the same way that non of those camcorders are perfect and that's why I'm considering the successor to the HMC40. Combine the features of the TM700 with the HMC40, it will have everything I need. It would be even better if Panasonic would make it even smaller. Because of 60p, even if Sony and Canon comes out with their own version, I'd still pick it. For other people a Canon or a Sony version may have features that are very important to them so my suggestion is that if your willing to wait, it might be better and see what NAB will bring.

I'm home now so here's the link to the focal length comparison - someone else posted it originally, I'm just reposting it for convenience:

http://www.tamron.com/lenses/learnin...comparison.php

Buying a cam is intensely personal in many ways. One thing is to see if you can hold them both before choosing. Sometimes the specs sound good but the form factor isn't optimal for your hands. If the camcorder doesn't feel good to you and you shoot handheld and it's uncomfortable and you move a lot, all the camcorder quality in the world won't save your video. I shot some pretty bad clips this winter after waiting in the cold for trains to come by.

I'm left totally unmoved by the 60p not 60i discussion. So I kind of agree with David's post just in front of yours above.

On the SD format side, that raises the interesting question of whether you'll hold onto the cam for many years or trade it in a few years from now. The digital camcorders are evolving much faster than analog ones did.

I bought my first camcorder in 1994 when my son was born. Between then and 2006, I owned only one other one to get DVD resolution. I'm embarrassed to say that Sony kept improving their cams so well that I bought three in three years to get new features. I'll sit out 2010 because the 550V has the different optics (wider angle where I favor native telephoto) and great new features but not ones I personally need (viewfinder, SD card support, more manual controls, etc.). But I won't be that surprised if they come out with something new I want in 2011. I've switched from upgrading computers to upgrading camcorders, I guess.

I thought about the HMC40 - slightly used for ~1500ish. I'm not sure that I'd spend the money for the new version. Though I don't know how much it would cost, I can't imagine less than $1700+.

I really miss my old Sony handicam - 3.5" LCD, great zoom, external mic (2 channel sound), 8mm tape. It was a real workhorse and lasted 10 years.

BTW: the Sony site says that the 550v is compatible with iMovie, but the included software is not compatible with Mac OS. Does that mean that the format recorded is compatible (whether AVHCD or the 24Mbps 1080/60i) or can be read by iMovie? What does the included software do that I'd lose?

"does anyone have have video showing the visual difference between 60i and 60p?"


That's the point - how can anyone show you the difference? 1080 60p cannot be played on a blu-ray player, it cannot be shown on broadcast TV, it won't play on YouTube or Vimeo. They could send you a 1080, 60p file, but you would have a difficult time finding a device that could play it well.

Can anyone show interlacing artifacts on CBS's broadcast of "March Madness"? of NBC's broadcast of the Olympics? Both are/were action sports shot and displayed in 1080, 60i.

One can show the difference between 720p and 1080 60i, and there is no settled answer as to which of these is better (720 60p is an option on many video cameras and is a US broadcast standard (ABC, ESPN) like 1080 60i).

What's next 120P? then 240P at 1080? This is again escalation by numbers to impress the ill-informed, like mega-megapixels on tiny sensors. Beyond a certain point (and ignoring slo-mo tricks), this is silly.

The 550 is completely compatible with iMovie. iMovie can archive all of the footage from the 550 (basically a file copy preserving file structure).

iMovie can import from that archive or directly from the camcorder. You can either import at 960X540 or 1920X1080, and iMovie transcodes to AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec) which is fast and easy to edit. The transcode happens faster than realtime on my MacBook Pro. You can then output to many formats.

The workflow is very easy. If you want to shoot movies, import them, edit them and output to a variety of formats, iMovie works fine with the 550.

As for what the included software does, see the 550 manual. Here is the European version of the manual:

http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4170539111.pdf

see pages 35-40.

That's a bit contradictory putting it that way.


If You go on to Video you'll see am innumerable amount of slow motion videos. The 7D's 720 60p mode isn't perfect especially compared to the GH1's but a lot of people still use it for slow motion like in this video at the bottom.
http://vimeo.com/6853452

The next video I'll link to is definitely a feast to your eyes.
http://vimeo.com/4167288
Theirs a 1080 version that can be downloaded in which I have.

I'm sure you'll see a lot more remarkable slow motion videos especially coming out of the RED scarlet.

Basically all I'm saying is that even if 1080 60p wont become a common standard anytime soon, using it for slow motion is a very good legitimate reason to have it right now.

Here is a site with pictures comparing TM700 60p, TM700 60i, and CX550V FX Mode:
http://www.genkosha.com/vs/report/en...00108060p.html

Pictures taken with Sony camcorder seem to be badly out of focus.