Popping Breaker Problems 15A AFCI

AFCI's sense a rapid increase in current demand. I am not surprised they trip when powering a lot of electronic gear as in a home AV system.

I would replace the AFCI breaker with a standard breaker. Depending on where it is, i.e. bedroom, it may be a code requirement depending on the age of the home. But still replacing it with a standard breaker is not a serious safety issue. After all, AFCIs have only been around fro a few years. Then if you sell the house, simply put the AFCI back.

What brand is the breaker? I think the siemens afci's have an led diagnostic code that might help you out. If you have another afci in the panel you could swap them to see if it does the same thing.

How old is the AFCI breaker? You can test it by pressing the button on it, like a GFCI outlet. If it works you have a wiring issue or equipment issue.

Here are a couple of links describing AFCI, very helpful (for me at least)

AFCI troubleshooting

AFCI Safety

Here is a quick description of how an AFCI works (from AFCISafety.org):

have this happened before you upgrade your TV?
Try to plug your TV in other circuit that have AFCI protection, such as bedrooms, if that AFCI still pop, it's likely a problem with your TV, such as internal arc.

Or determine which appliance is leaking too much current. All appliance leak some current to the safety ground wire. Typically tens of microamps. If the total leakage exceeds milliamps, then the AFCI sees a human safety threat - then trips.

Your amperage currents are no where near to being excessive. However interesting information can be obtained by powering each one at a time in various orders. And doing same after removing other non-entertainment devices from that circuit (even if not powered on).

AGFIs can also detect a short between neutral and safety ground. Both wires are electrically different. That fault may only become apparent as the neutral wire current exceeds a certain amperage.

You fault says something is wrong. Fix the problem. Rarely are AGFIs defective. A most common reason for tripping are appliances leaking too much but marginal amounts of current into the safety ground. Or (for example) leaking excessive current into (or from) the cable or other non-power connection.

The arc fault detection function of an AFCI isn't really about too much current leakage. A microprocessor looks for wave forms typical of arcing between parallel conductors (hot and neutral, hot and ground), and in the case of the newer combination AFCIs, also series arcing due to a break in a single conductor. It is supposed to ignore similar, but benign, arcing like that from motors.

FWIW a GFCI does trip based on an current imbalance between hot and neutral. And there are a few AFCIs that also have GFCI functionallity, but most don't.

AFCIs have had some notable failures, but those were failure to operate when they should have, resulting in recalls. Replacing the AFCI with a standard breaker will likely make the symptoms go away. But as has already been suggested, it is best to fix the cause of the problem, not just the symptoms. Taking the AFCI out of the equation is like putting a penny in a fuse socket because the fuse keeps blowing.

If the installed AFCI is a combination type, it is possible that something as simple as a loose connection between a plug an a receptacle could be causing it to trip. That could look like a series fault. What kind of receptacles are installed in the house? Are they at least spec grade? If not, I would replace them with spec grade or better. May or may not solve your immediate problem, but it is a good idea anyway, at least for your AV equipment.

Other possibilities are that there is an actual problem with the wiring or a piece of equipment, or the AFCI is misinterpreting the normal operation of some device as a fault. What do you want to bet on? I would at least make sure all the wiring on the circuit, including every connection in every J-box, was right before pulling the AFCI.

FWIW considering that your problem starting when swapping TVs, I would first check that the connection between the power cord and the TV is solid, the replace the receptacle it plugs into with a spec grade or better receptacle (I use hospital grade, an even higher grade, primarily because I got them for a buck a piece).

Replace it with standard breaker.

If the house is new I would be calling either the builder or the electrical sub contractor to have them come out and look at it. Should be under warranty. Don't spend money on it if you don't have to!

+1 on that.

Most AFCIs also have GFCIs built in. This too could be what is tripping. GFCIs are notorious for false tripping when powering electronic gear. Especially when you have many items such as in an HT rack. The leakage inside some consumer gear is margional for a GFCI and when several units are paralled together, the leakage is enough to trip a GFCI. These AV units are most likely to be UL listed so they are still safe.

Nothing in your post suggests an overload. Everything in my post says the problem is probably elsewhere. Please do suggestion tests in my post to find the problem - which is clearly not about overloading.

The concept is leakage. Your breaker is typically tripping due to excessive leakage current. That non-AGFI breaker does not detect leakage. To find leakage current, use the meter to measure microamps flowing through all other wires - safety ground, antenna lead, etc.

Identify a total leakage current - single digit milliamps. Your meter must be so good to measure AC in tens of microamps - which should be maximum leakage from each appliance.

Notice the relevant numbers - microamps and milliamps. Measuring amps provides no useful information - as even your extension cord test only further confirms.

Not true. Yes, it is true that they will trip on certain ground fault conditions, the level depending on the particular product. But that is not the same as being a GFCI. GFCIs trip on very specific conditions to protect human life from electrocution. AFCIs protect the dwelling from fire. AFCIs only have GFCIs built in if they are dual listed.

AFCIs sound like a PITA for a simple plasma. Why would you want these in a spare bedroom?

AFCIs are required by code for all bedroom circuits. Choice is not a option. Only grandfathering avoids the requirement.

BTW to determine whether a ground fault is the issue, just plug the gear into a GFCI. If it trips, there is a fault. If not, look elsewhere for the problem.

Gotcha. I have a heated gutter system for my house and the electrician installed AFCIs.. They are quite expensive compared to a standard breaker... particularly the 30 amp AFCIs.

We built our house in 2001/2, so thankfully we did not need to install these.. another scam for the local inspector / city and a useless expense. They did get us on fire detectors, we have 12 in our house all connected in series.

I bet a 20 amp AFCI might solve the issue here as a large initlal current draw may be tripping the 15 amp AFCI breaker. Even with 14 awg wiring.

Code won't let you put a 20A breaker on a 14 AWG circuit.

OP

If you want to measure the actual leakage current, check this out. If you just want to know if you have a problem, plug the gear into a circuit with a GFCI. It will trip at anything over 5 mA.

No, it is not. A 10 amp breaker would be more than sufficient. You extension cord test also proved that. A Colm noted, do not install a larger breaker on any circuit. That is not even acceptable for testing purposes because it is unnecessary. Stop looking for currents measured in amperes. Your problem would be other currents measured in milliamps and microamps.

How would you measure amperes of current? You would cut the wire and put the amp meter in series. How would you measure microamps of current. You would cut that wire and measure the current with the meter set to micro or milliamp settings.

The current you are searching for is not on the black (hot) or white (neutral) wire. It is on the green (safety ground) wire, the antenna wire, and other conductive paths.

If currents on those other paths total to milliamps, then you have too much leakage. No device should leak even as much as 100 microamps.

All devices leak some current. You concern are the device(s) that are leaking too much current - therefore tripping the human safety device.

Large initial current? Only an assumption. Some electronics prefer to start up with extremely low voltages. Therefore an inrush current limiter may exist in appliances so that startup current might be lower that normal operation current. Do not assume a massive inrush current only because that is a popular belief. Until you measure that current, then you don’t know what the startup current is. Incandescent light bulbs and electric motors have large startup currents. Other devices may not (depending on design).

Maybe so, but if this were my situation would be to install a standard 20 amp breaker and screw the code. What a PITA. If you're worried about fires / other issues from a bedroom outlet, there are more important things to worry about and, likely, code has already required a fire detector inside that room already.

Speaking of large in rush, one zone in my heated gutters measured out at 19 amps at 'turn-on'... So, to be safe, my electrician installed a 30 amp AFCI... (they're expensive, too).

I am wondering if some of your gear is using switching power supplies. There is a possibility that one of them (or the combination of a couple of them) is making the current flow looking like an arcing condition.

If it were my house, I would change out the AFCI breaker with a conventional breaker and set the AFCI breaker on top of the box. That way if I were to ever sell the house, I could simply reinstall it. (I know this is against the 'code' but the present condition is also unacceptable.) As I read this thread, it appears that they are only required on types of certain circuits anyway. There must be some technical reason for it--- Like false tripping of the breaker.

Your electrician should go to jail, then.

30 amps is way too high for a residential circuit.

Go to jail? Get a life.

I suppose he should get the death penalty for the 50 amp breakers in our panel as well (shower steamer)??

It is what it is and the draw is the draw...

The problem that you have is that a GFI breaker is suppose to trip when the current differential between the neutral (white) and 'hot' (black) exceeds about 10 Milliamperes. Meters that are capable of reading the type of differential are very expensive.

Question #1: Does any of your equipment have a three wire (grounded) plug on it? If not, you can NOT have any current flowing in the ground wire because of no piece of your equipment is connected to the ground wire! So attempting to measure current flow in the ground wire is unnecessary. (By the way, I have never seen a piece of AV equipment with a gthree wire plug on it!)

Question #2: Is any of your equipment connected to a earth ground. A cable or satellite connection would be the most likely candidates. If this is the case, remove the connection and measure for a voltage between the shield on the cable and the ground on the the piece of equipment that is connected to the problem breaker. Be sure to check for both AC and DC voltage. If you measure anything, you might have found your problem. Finding and fixing it can be a real headache. If you are lucky, you might find that they used a second ground rod rather than connecting their ground connection to the ground rod for the power to the house.

You are making this too complex. A split core amp meter will cost well beyond what you will be willing to pay. Microamps is so small as to require that entire current to be passing through the meter.

Return to my first post. I discuss how to isolate the problem down by a simple process of trial and error. Chances are only one appliance is leaking excessively. First determine what that device (or combination of devices or combinations of connections) is. Then to confirm that problem, your meter must literally be connected in series in the 'leakage' wire to see those milliamps. Yes, it will be single digit miliamps. Not all meters will measure that small.

Doing that process of elimination means the meter is only measuring the suspect appliance.

Using Colms, suggestion, you might build a test fixture. A GFCI receptacle will trip at 5 ma leakage. So put a GFCI in a box on the bench. Connect 47K (or 33K) half watt resistor from black (hot - the screw that provides downstream protection) to green (safety ground) wires. Now the GFCI is seeing 2.5 ma (or 3.6 ma) leakages. Any one appliance connected to that GFCI and that trips the GFCI is leaking too much current. Leakage through the resistor is not enough. But leakage combined with the defective appliance would trip it. If an appliance has an antenna connection, then that must also be connected in case that also contributes to current leakage.

Among other reasons that could cause this problem - is the incoming cable properly earthed where it enters the building? A fault out on the street can enter current on a non-earthed cable (cable must be earthed where it enters a building). That incoming current leaking into some appliance could cause reverse leakage that might also be detected. IOW do all appliances still trip that breaker - but not when the antenna lead is connected? Simpler (in part because you are not familiar with test equipment) is to first learn what does and does not cause breaker trip.

That is a code violation. And could even explain why the breaker is tripping. All earth grounds must be to the same ground rod. Or a defective earthing can be corrected by this utility suggestion:
http://www.duke-energy.com/indiana-b...ech-tip-08.asp