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post #691 of 819
8/7/12 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

There aren't any reviews out there on the level of Audioholics reviews.

Do you like the sub?
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post #692 of 819
8/8/12 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaeelarr View Post

Do you like the sub?

Its a nice musical sub. It will be that to me before and after Audioholics review.
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post #693 of 819
8/8/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Depends, the SB13 has better in room FR than the SB12 (or a pair of them). The SB12 pair would have smoother FR. Take your pick.

What pick, smoother frequency response means better bass.
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post #694 of 819
8/8/12 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

What pick, smoother frequency response means better bass.

Debatable again. With Audyssey some of the smoothness improvement can be had. In addition, with a dual SB12 setup you really can't really move up easily for more extension. With a SB13 you could always add another easily to get the smoothness advantage while gaining higher output and keeping the better in-room extension.
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post #695 of 819
8/8/12 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

You would be off getting two SB12-NSD's than one SB13.

I don't think i have space for 2 subs. Besides, my room is only 1500cu ft. The SB13 will give all the output i need.

But lets say i were to get 2 SB12's. Where would i put them, 2 up front, or 1 up front and 1 in back?
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post #696 of 819
8/8/12 at 11:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Debatable again. With Audyssey some of the smoothness improvement can be had. In addition, with a dual SB12 setup you really can't really move up easily for more extension. With a SB13 you could always add another easily to get the smoothness advantage while gaining higher output and keeping the better in-room extension.

Why are you so concerned with extension, there isn't that much content anyway. The SB12's extent low enough for the vast majority of content. Two of them would give you more output.
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post #697 of 819
8/8/12 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I don't think i have space for 2 subs. Besides, my room is only 1500cu ft. The SB13 will give all the output i need.
But lets say i were to get 2 SB12's. Where would i put them, 2 up front, or 1 up front and 1 in back?

If you don't have the space, in that case, you cannot use multiple subs.
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post #698 of 819
8/8/12 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Why are you so concerned with extension, there isn't that much content anyway. The SB12's extent low enough for the vast majority of content. Two of them would give you more output.

Why am I so concerned with extension? We are on a subwoofer forum are we not? The SB12 is basically 6db down from nominal at 23Hz. To say there is very little content of interest in this region seems counter to the point of why people go with large subwoofers. With room gain added in it may add a bit to the extension but with a 4th order rolloff its not likely to improve that much.

The SB13 isn't much larger, has roughly the same output as 2 SB12's and has increased extension due to the larger woofer and 2nd order rolloff. Yes you lose the smoothing advantage of two subs. However, the upgrade path, as I mentioned before is obvious. Once you have 2 SB12's there isn't much more upgrade to be had without moving/selling/scrapping the subs out of the setup.
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post #699 of 819
8/8/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Why am I so concerned with extension? We are on a subwoofer forum are we not? The SB12 is basically 6db down from nominal at 23Hz. To say there is very little content of interest in this region seems counter to the point of why people go with large subwoofers. With room gain added in it may add a bit to the extension but with a 4th order rolloff its not likely to improve that much.
The SB13 isn't much larger, has roughly the same output as 2 SB12's and has increased extension due to the larger woofer and 2nd order rolloff. Yes you lose the smoothing advantage of two subs. However, the upgrade path, as I mentioned before is obvious. Once you have 2 SB12's there isn't much more upgrade to be had without moving/selling/scrapping the subs out of the setup.

The only reason to go with one subwoofer over two is if can't afford two or don't have the space. Why would you sacrafice a smoother frequecy response (which means better quality bass) for extension when SB12's are capable for the vast majority of content. Also, some people purchase large subwoofers simply because they can.


"The idea is to use multple subs located around the room to smooth the spatial and spectral response at the seating location. The fact that multiple subs does this has been proven time and time again and really isn't an arguable point. IF you want the smoothest bass, then you must use multiple sources, no single source can compete. The room dominates the LF situation in any audio system and its the sources that must be accomodated to the room.

Sure its not great to have subs all over the place, but you have to get your priorities in order. Do you want the "best" bass or not, because if you do, you better get used to multiple subs" [Earl Geddes, Ph.d]

"Are two subs better than one??? The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two subs of the exact same brand and model #. In almost all circumstances, installing multiple subwoofers in your theater room will yield significantly better and smoother bass response across a wider listening area due to modal averaging. We’ve covered this topic thoroughly, so I don’t want to re-invent the wheel." [Audioholics]
Edited by Auditor55 - 8/8/12 at 12:04pm
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post #700 of 819
8/8/12 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

The only reason to go with one subwoofer over two is if can't afford two or don't have the space. Why would you sacrafice a smoother frequecy response (which means better quality bass) for extension when SB12's are capable for the vast majority of content. Also, some people purchase large subwoofers simply because they can.

I can somewhat agree but the problem is there are people out there that don't want to buy two SB13's off the bat but could see themselves buying two in the future. The upgrade path is simply more open starting with a SB13 vs. two SB12's. If a person doesn't ever see buying 2x SB13's or doesn't watch movies or care about LFE then by all means just get 2x SB12. They are certainly a very capable pair. Some people want to get a sub that is more inconspicuous than a PB13 but maintains some of the low end extension. The SB13 is more capable of that.

Why do people suggest people start with a 2.1 setup as opposed to 5.1 and add on as they get more money? Because you end up with a better setup. The same argument could be made for starting with one subwoofer and moving up to two. Obviously there are tradeoffs in the meantime just like there are tradeoffs between a 5.1 and 2.1 setup.

People purchase larger subwoofers simply because they can? I think most people have a purpose, be that lower extension or more output.

Lastly, again, Audyssey fixes some of the problems that having only one sub brings. Room resonances can be tamed which can greatly clean up a single sub setup.
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post #701 of 819
8/8/12 at 12:19pm
The fundamental premise that you should use dual subs to smooth out frequency response problems assumes that you actually have bad frequency problems AT your listening position.

I watch movies with my significant other on a loveseat couch. I measured the frequency response at ear level at both seating positions. It's already very flat. Why should I buy two SB12's again over an SB13?
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post #702 of 819
8/8/12 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

The only reason to go with one subwoofer over two is if can't afford two or don't have the space. Why would you sacrafice a smoother frequecy response (which means better quality bass) for extension when SB12's are capable for the vast majority of content. Also, some people purchase large subwoofers simply because they can.
"The idea is to use multple subs located around the room to smooth the spatial and spectral response at the seating location. The fact that multiple subs does this has been proven time and time again and really isn't an arguable point. IF you want the smoothest bass, then you must use multiple sources, no single source can compete. The room dominates the LF situation in any audio system and its the sources that must be accomodated to the room.
Sure its not great to have subs all over the place, but you have to get your priorities in order. Do you want the "best" bass or not, because if you do, you better get used to multiple subs" [Earl Geddes, Ph.d]
"Are two subs better than one??? The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two subs of the exact same brand and model #. In almost all circumstances, installing multiple subwoofers in your theater room will yield significantly better and smoother bass response across a wider listening area due to modal averaging. We’ve covered this topic thoroughly, so I don’t want to re-invent the wheel." [Audioholics]

Since you posted new quotes I'll ask the obvious question...Why would I disagree with any of these quotes? Nothing I've posted disagrees with ANY of these quotes. All these quotes are saying two subs is better/smoother than one. OF COURSE it is. What they don't say is "Two cheaper subs are always better than one more expensive sub". If you can find that quote for me please point me to it because that is a glaring generality that may or may not be true.
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post #703 of 819
8/8/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdiver2489 View Post

Since you posted new quotes I'll ask the obvious question...Why would I disagree with any of these quotes? Nothing I've posted disagrees with ANY of these quotes. All these quotes are saying two subs is better/smoother than one. OF COURSE it is. What they don't say is "Two cheaper subs are always better than one more expensive sub". If you can find that quote for me please point me to it because that is a glaring generality that may or may not be true.

Let keep things in context. What they are saying is that two subs are better than one, period. Audioholics compared two smaller subs vs one big sub and concluded that the two smaller subs resulted in better bass since they regard a smoother frequecy response as better bass.

Since this thread is dealing with SVS sealed subs, that means two SB12-NSD vs one SB13. You might refer to two SB12-NSD's a cheaper, I prefer to say to "less expensive". When it comes these subs, since we are dealing with what are regarded as quality subs, we can conclude it would mostly likely be true in this case.
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post #704 of 819
8/8/12 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Let keep things in context. What they are saying is that two subs are better than one, period. Audioholics compared two smaller subs vs one big sub and concluded that the two smaller subs resulted in better bass since they regard a smoother frequecy response as better bass.
Since this thread is dealing with SVS sealed subs, that means two SB12-NSD vs one SB13. You might refer to two SB12-NSD's a cheaper, I prefer to say to "less expensive". When it comes these subs, since we are dealing with what are regarded as quality subs, we can conclude it would mostly likely be true in this case.

You keep quoting that Audioholics review and you really need to stop unless you disclose the pricepoints:
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/two-subs

Yes, they compared two smaller $1100 subs vs one $1200 sub... So $2200 vs $1200... You really think that is fair? How about comparing two smaller $1100 subs to one single $2200 sub that has a lot more output and extension than the two smaller subs?

Honestly, this has been pointed out to you before yet you keep trying to promote it.

I will say this. Two subs are not always better than one when you factor in the price point, the room, and other considerations. I had multiple vendors (including SVS) push me towards one larger more expensive sub vs two smaller less expensive subs.

Every room and situation is different and there is no simple answer.
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post #705 of 819
8/8/12 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Why are you so concerned with extension, there isn't that much content anyway. The SB12's extent low enough for the vast majority of content. Two of them would give you more output.
There you go again spouting off about something you know nothing about: deep bass extension. Your subs can't do it. You've said in the past that you don't like it, you fear it, and you've called it a form of nazi torture. Yet, you continue to talk about it. Why not stick with giving advice about things you actually are properly informed about?
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post #706 of 819
8/8/12 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

If you don't have the space, in that case, you cannot use multiple subs.

I was more asking how does placement work.

Why do these arguments always start? Everybody has different preferences. I can't see myself adding 2 subs unless i get a bigger theater space. In the room im in now, one sub is more than enough. And this is with my average but good (and now broken) def tech sub. An SB12 or 13 will do wonders in my room.

Sometimes we need step out from our own little world and come back to reality.

EDIT- And my sub is only 8 to 9' away my LP. Thats pretty much near field.
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post #707 of 819
8/9/12 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

There you go again spouting off about something you know nothing about: deep bass extension. Your subs can't do it. You've said in the past that you don't like it, you fear it, and you've called it a form of nazi torture. Yet, you continue to talk about it. Why not stick with giving advice about things you actually are properly informed about?

Stop coming into the SVS sealed sub thread causing trouble. Shouldn't you be somewhere with your Cap. Leave SVS owners alone. And stop lying.
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post #708 of 819
8/9/12 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Stop coming into the SVS sealed sub thread causing trouble. Shouldn't you be somewhere with your Cap. Leave SVS owners alone. And stop lying.

Umm...rolleyes.gif I own a pair of sealed SVS subs. Do you?
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post #709 of 819
8/9/12 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I was more asking how does placement work.
Why do these arguments always start? Everybody has different preferences. I can't see myself adding 2 subs unless i get a bigger theater space. In the room im in now, one sub is more than enough. And this is with my average but good (and now broken) def tech sub. An SB12 or 13 will do wonders in my room.
Sometimes we need step out from our own little world and come back to reality.
EDIT- And my sub is only 8 to 9' away my LP. Thats pretty much near field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Umm...rolleyes.gif I own a pair of sealed SVS subs. Do you?

I think part of the reason arguments start is because some people get downright nasty, slanderous and mean spirited, they don't know how maintain civility with those that may differ.
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post #710 of 819
8/9/12 at 12:27pm
WOW. That coming from someone who is always giving sermons on how people should spend their money.eek.gif Get him Mojo!
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post #711 of 819
8/9/12 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by morrischestnut60 View Post

WOW. That coming from someone who is always giving sermons on how people should spend their money.eek.gif Get him Mojo!

Giving sermons/advice on how consumers should spend their money is one thing and being slanderous is another. I'm never mean spirited and nasty. I just share my own views and leave it at that. I don't make up a lies against person just because I disagree with them. I try to follow the Forum rules.
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post #712 of 819
8/9/12 at 2:06pm
Oh BTW, just because I don't waste my money on such doesn't mean I don't have $$$ to do so. I could have purchased multiple PB13 Ultra's, so-called infrasonic subs. I don't desire infrasonics at this time, for various reasons and not one is which is that I fear infrasonics which is a lie. I don't want to turn this thread into merits or fallacy of infrasonics debate.
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post #713 of 819
8/9/12 at 2:56pm
Do new SVS subs ever go on sale -- arrival of new models, discontinued models, Black Friday, anything? If so, typically to what extent; 10% off, 50% off? I don't need a sub immediately but I am wondering if there is any reason to wait.
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post #714 of 819
8/9/12 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaaceship1 View Post

Do new SVS subs ever go on sale -- arrival of new models, discontinued models, Black Friday, anything? If so, typically to what extent; 10% off, 50% off? I don't need a sub immediately but I am wondering if there is any reason to wait.

They do. For example, right now the PC12-Plus is being sold for $100 off. Periodically you find deals in their Outlet Specials section. Presently they're also offering their various loudspeaker models at a huge discount; I guess they plan to discontinue these models, and introduce a high-end line, sometime soon.
Edited by SaviorMachine - 8/9/12 at 4:15pm
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post #715 of 819
8/9/12 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

They do. For example, right now the PC12-Plus is being sold for $100 off. Periodically you find deals in their Outlet Specials section. Presently they're also offering their various loudspeaker models at a huge discount; I guess they plan to discontinue these models, and introduce a high-end line, sometime soon.

Thanks!
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post #716 of 819
8/11/12 at 7:33am
is the new svs 13 available now or is there a wait?
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post #717 of 819
8/11/12 at 7:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Oh BTW, just because I don't waste my money on such doesn't mean I don't have $$$ to do so. I could have purchased multiple PB13 Ultra's, so-called infrasonic subs.

Why bring this up at all? Has anyone questioned the state of your finances?
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post #718 of 819
8/11/12 at 8:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbuzz View Post

is the new svs 13 available now or is there a wait?

Sometime this fall. I don't think SVS does the pre order deal, once they post it on their site its available.
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post #719 of 819
8/11/12 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

"Are two subs better than one??? The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two subs of the exact same brand and model #. In almost all circumstances, installing multiple subwoofers in your theater room will yield significantly better and smoother bass response across a wider listening area due to modal averaging. We’ve covered this topic thoroughly, so I don’t want to re-invent the wheel." [Audioholics]

That quote ("cut and paste" as usual ) says when comparing 1 vs 2 subs, the same brand and same model should be used. So any comparison between 2 SB12's and a SB13 may not hold the same ground.

BTW did Auditor sell his beloved XRef12? smile.gif
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post #720 of 819
8/11/12 at 8:56am
Auditor55, you may have more credibility in this forum if you stop cutting and pasting random quotes and instead defend your arguments using personal experience backed up by measurements made in your own room even if they are crude (not just your subjective opinions based on your listening in an untreated room without any room correction).

BTW people don't buy a sub like SB13 to listen to music that only has content above some 50Hz LOL. There are many movies which have deep explosions ( which you refer to as "booming" sound). So extension does matter. I guess the reason they sound "boomy' to you is probably due to any room modes in your room that may not be corrected either using passive room treatments or active correction. With proper treatment/room correction, a single sub can also sound good in a small room. I only have a single sub but I have room treatments and also use Audyssey and Antimode. I do get deep bass with one sub. Of course it is best for the main LP only but it does not matter as I am the only listener.

I ask this again, are you using any room treatments or any room correction like Audyssey or Antimode? Any subjective opinions based on listening to bass in an untreated room without any room correction can be thrown out.
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