SVS Sealed Subs... - Page 27

Maybe he can lose some furniture.


As a suggestion, for giggles he can download REM, a freeware analyzing program.

We have a large open room but we're lucky in that it's a subwoofer/speaker friendly venue. The gain at the two subwoofers is set to two out of ten possible setting choices and Audyssey has the gain in the Amp turned down -8.5dB.


No idea about the above situation as personally, based on your above, (stacking five subs) the sub/venue combination sounds terminal. To me, a double stack of 18" Funk Audio sounds like a very expensive solution to what, in ignorance, should be an easy fix. Personally, again, in ignorance, me thinks something else is going on besides the simplicity of a vampire room, sucking the life of the subwoofers.

That's probably your best bet (PC Ultra) or you should consider other manufacturers. I think you should consider something like a JL F113, its small and powerful. Personally, I wouldn't recommend a SB13 for HT applications, which is what you seem like you're after. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on output moreso than sound quality. In my opinion, SB13 is more of a music sub than a HT sub. I think if you want low and loud
you should stick with a vented sub, you might have to compromise on appearance or WAF.

Thanks guys for all the wonderful comments and feedback. I know its hard to have this kind of conversation via an internet forum (which is why I don't have a ton of posts consdering how long I've been a member of this forum) but I appreciate the discussion we're having. For the record I've also been emailing the SVS guys directly getting there feedback as well. It's all been pretty helpful.

Just wanted to say that this statement here is not really true and I wanted to try to clearify my "mission" if I gave you guys the wrong impression. First off, I'm not a bass head by any stretch of the imagination. I do value great low distorted tight bass over loud boomy and uncontrolled bass any day. If you see the rest of my equipment, I probably invested the least on my subwoofer. Most of time I've had a home theater, I've been in a townhome or apartment where I've been constantly limited due to neighbors. I currently live in a detached house finally but my neighbors have made it clear that they can hear the bass from the PB12 NSD late night when I'm cranking a movie or music (approx -15db volume level) so I still have to be conscious about it. In terms of listening habits, in the 5 years that I have owned the PB12 NSD I have never put the volume knob on the sub higher than the 1 o'clock position (about 60%) and that was only a few hours for a party. 95% of time, the knob stays in the 10-11 o'clock positions (roughly 30-40%) at max with the pre/pro sub gain set to 0. The pre/pro volume never goes higher than -15db (normally between -25db to -20db) for my typical listening habits. Again, I'm no bass head and don't "rock out" too hard.

My goals with upgrading my sub are primarily to get more responsive bass with a flatter freq response than I currently have. It is a good chance that I will be moving within the next 2 years so the room is a variable that will change and thus I'm not putting too much effort into conforming to this room. My desire to upgrade really increased once I started seeing reviews on the paradigm SUB 1. I loved the form factor and the size for the performance it seamed to be offering (interestingly enough, paradigm does not seem to publish a freq response for the SUB 1 and I have yet to see a freq response graph). I have seen and heard it in person as well and thought it sounded full yet tight and clean (although I didn't do any real critical listening). The problem: price. With paradigm speakers prices continually increasing the MSRP for the SUB 1 is currently $4999 US if I'm not mistaken which is simply too rich for my blood...at least for a sub. But seeing the rave reviews given its small box, small drivers, and sealed design got me thinking that a sealed sub would be the way to go. The only performance issue I've heard of with the SUB 1 is hitting the lowest notes at near or above reference level with some tough sub 25hz bass content. That's probably fine for me given my listening habits and experiences. It was around this time that I saw the Audioholics review contest for the SVS SB13 Ultra. Being a fan of SVS performance based on my experience with the PB12 NSD and seeing as how I could buy 3 SB13s and still have money left over before I get to the cost of the SUB 1, my attention quickly turned to seeing how the SB13 turned out.

I have no doubt that the SB13 would be a blast for music and improve dramatically over the PB12 NSD. My only concern was paying 2x the price for the SB13 as the PB12 NSD, getting it home, throwing in a bass heavy movie, turning up the volume, and feeling like something is missing when compared to the PB12. Feeling like I lost something in the "upgrade". With my moderate listenting levels and much older sub, I was hoping that the sound quality of the SB13 ultra would be an improvement in music and at least on par in extension and output as the PB12 NSD (again for my habits and levels). It may just come down to me getting one to audition at home for the 45 day trial SVS offers

Thanks again for all the comments!

Based on your above comments, I see a terribly conflicted bass head.

Reviewing:


Starting with conflict one. The center channel being the most important speaker and bass reproduction being number two. Note your comments as to what you value and what you've focused on. Bass-heads value quality bass.


FWIW, the pair of nineteen year old 12" subs we have, using the sub's gain control, are set at two out of a possible ten, with the Audyssey set AVR's pre/pro gain showing; -8.5dB.


Our normal AVR setting is in the -48dB to -45dB range. Have you scanned your room with a SPL meter?


If you look at the spectrograph of a SVS PB12-NSD, it's the best spectrograph in it's class. Short of going to the Paradigm, Sub2, in my opinion, you'll find it hard to find anything in the 12"-15" class that can beat the spectrograph of the SVS, PB12-NSD. More responsive bass, sounds like a bass-head to me.


Remember, you're not a bass-head and yet, now you're comparing a $769.00 sub to a $5,000.00 sub. Hardly fair, wouldn't you say? Maybe a Martin Logan, Depth i would be a better comparison as it's only $2,200.00. Before going coo-coo, can you get a second SVS PB12-NSD into your room for a sonic trial with a SPL meter in hand?


There's that bass head conflict again. Reference level is up to 115dB and if the neighbors can hear your sub when the volume is kept down and you being conservative, imagine what the neighbors are going hear when three subs are set to reference levels.


Bass heads love reference levels.


Going from one 12" sub to 3 13" subs? That's a person in serious need of a bass fix. My how our perspective and needs easily morph when given a chance at some cheap bass waves.


Bass heads do worry about a lack of bass.


Yes, bass-heads do worry about this type of loss.


Based on your comments above about reference level listening desires, affinity towards a Sub1 and/or three SB13's, I'd say moderate is not an accurate characterization of your listening habits. A person is not what they say because they're what they do. Maybe starting with two SB12-NSD subs and then if not enough, adding a second pair. If four PB12-NSD's is not enough to rock your world, then there's something wrong with your AVR and it's not pumping out the pre-pro signal it was hired to provide. Out of curiosity, have you put a mult-meter on the sub-out to do a voltage check?

(All of my above are intended in good fun; bass-head2bass-head)

Personally, based on your above, I think you're selling the SVS PB12-NSD short and should give a second one a try and again, I suspect you'll find four SVS, PB12-NSD subs, more to your liking for both; sound quality and delivered price. As to your neighbors, I can't address that issue.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/13/12 at 3:14pm

A closet basshead:)

I know, old thread. But I read an article this AM that made me think about it, especially the Sb16 and how the cost of neo (along with other rare earth minerals) had gone through the roof.

The article (found here) discusses how the Chinese trade restrictions are leading firms to reopen old mines. Hopefully this can restore some sanity to the pricing, and fun projects, such as the 16.5" driver that SVS was looking at, might become feasible again.

Some further info on Nd costs here and here

While Neo is still up considerably from 2010, it has been falling all year.



Here's to hoping anyway.
Edited by Snowmanick - 10/28/12 at 12:15am

When is the SB13 going back down to $1200? I need a new sub bad.

$1600 is too expensive.

I suspect not any time soon (if ever)

I suspect it will eventually go down but not any time soon.

I was looking at the specs of the SB13 and had a couple of questions.

What exactly does the the high/lowpass fIlter settings do? 6 to 12db slope. Can someone explain that to me?

The same about the 2 PEQ's. What's the difference between the low and high pass settings and PEQ's? I see they both have the same frequencies. And I assume a 6db per octave means the volume will be reduced 6db from whatever frequency you choose and up to double that. For example 30hz to 50hz?

Sorry, i never understood this completely. I admit im still learning about stuff like this. I only know the basics.

The low pass filter adjusts the highest frequency the subwoofer is allowed to play before the filter starts to roll-off the response. The LPF has 12 dB/octave and 24 dB/octave slope options, which affect the steepness of the roll-off slope above the selected corner frequency. Normally this control is disabled if an upstream surround sound processor is being used, since it will already be low passing the signal being sent to the subwoofer.

The high pass filter adjusts the lowest frequency the connected loudspeakers are allowed to play before the filter starts to roll-off their response. Similar to the LPF, the HPF has 12 dB/octave and 24 dB/octave slope options, which affect the steepness of the roll-off slope below the selected corner frequency. This control is not used except in 2-channel applications where the user wants to use the subwoofer to from a digital crossover between the speakers and the subwoofer. If the speakers are run on full-range (a popular option in many 2 channel applications), the HPF isn't used at all.

The room gain compensation control is essentially a variable high pass filter which is imposed on the subwoofer (not any connected speakers) itself. It has selectable corner frequency and slope (6 dB/octave or 12 dB/octave), which can be used to tame a rising low-end response (often referred to as 'room gain') which may be present in smaller listening rooms when using a vented subwoofer which has a flat quasi-anechoic FR to very deep frequencies. This control is useful in either 2 channel applications which lack subwoofer EQ or in surround sound applications where the processor doesn't EQ the subwoofer channel. This setting is best adjusted using real in-room FR measurements, as adjusting by ear will generally not yield optimal results.

The PEQs are parametric equalizer filters with three controls - frequency, cut/boost, and bandwidth (Q value). The PEQs are useful for eliminating an in-room peak in the FR typically caused by room modes. Like the Room Gain Comp control, the PEQs are useful in either 2 channel applications which lack subwoofer EQ or in surround sound applications where the processor doesn't EQ the subwoofer channel. The PEQs are best adjusted using real in-room FR measurements, as adjusting by ear will generally not yield optimal results.

Thanks for the explanation, Ed.

Does the SB-13 come with a paper manual? I heard you have to download it? I hope not. My old slow computer doesn't like to download things. Heh. And i need the manual to read up on how all these features function.

Now how about those christmas sales.
Edited by saprano - 12/24/12 at 2:20pm

This doesn't make any sense to me. It has output to 20hz and usable way below that. Yeah it's not 120db at 20hz, but we don't realistically need that much volume anyway. At least i don't in my 1500 cu ft room. I feel fine with the volume of my current sub, which gets over 100db at the lp (not below 28hz though). I just need a new sub to reach down lower. Heck, 85 and 90db is loud in my room.

The SB-13 and, to be honest, any one of these sealed small ID subs will crush my walls down for HT use.

I guess i expect different from you guys who want 300db at -0hz. lol.

I hate to be the bearer of unpleasantries and with all due respect, my comments are posted in the nature of a friend, not an enemy; the internet doesn't care and we the consumers are being disrespected. Agreeing with you, online manuals are a PITA. I hate online manuals. I come from the day and age of the printed word. My pea size brain is geared towards learning from the printed word. The point I'm on your side when I post my above. And you can bet your last dollar as a "Ranch" bet, I hate online manuals.

The point, all of us have to familiarize ourselves with online provided information as opposed to the old school, preferable, now outdated, printed learning version of lengthy, complex, mental downloads. If I misread the intent of your lament or posted comment, my apologies.

The cool thing in "The Matrix," one plugged themselves in and "BAM!," instant edification; direct feed. Now that's what I'm talking about. "Yeah Baby!"

.......................

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 12/25/12 at 6:23am

I prefer searchable documents readable on a tablet in a darkened theater room and not killing trees uneccesarily. Hard to remember the last time I needed to dig out a physical document.

You can always print a copy if you prefer a traditional manual.
Edited by bfreedma - 12/25/12 at 7:02am

Haha no worries, yes i agree with you. I highly prefer printed EVERYTHING. If im going to learn about the stuff in the SB13 i want a paper manual in front of me while i play with the sub. I don't want to have to go back and forth to my computer. Which again, is very slow and probably can't DL it. So what am i to do?

And yes i would definitely love that tech from the matrix where we can learn new things immediately by a simple upload. But thats like 100 years away. lol.

Agreed. The response in my room was quite adequate...



In a room of under 2,000 cubes, it's a very nice "HT" capable, or otherwise, subwoofer. ~96-98db or so at 20Hz 2M GP for a sealed subwoofer (especially one this size) isn't anything to sneeze at.

Recent review of the SB13 Ultra.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-sb13-ultra-review/

It's kind of funny how they consider a 17" cubed sub to be "large."

Maybe they were just echoing their SO's comments?

I'm seeing very positive reviews from the press and users alike. Now strongly considering two SB13 Ultras for my HT room rather than the F113s I was planning on. Will be watching this thread for further user experiences. Would love to see CEA-2010 measurements.

Yeah exactly. It's a perfect HT sub.


Just found Home Theater magazines GLOWING review-

http://www.hometheater.com/content/svs-sb13-ultra-subwoofer

Amazing! I can't wait to get this sub. But that price.

You guys think i should just suck it up and buy it now? I mean it's not like i wont be enjoying myself.

Buy what makes you happy as in the end, it's about your happiness, not ours. So I think, if the money is there and a SB13-Ultra is what you want, go for it.

I just got a new pair of drivers and radiators delivered this evening. Now I get to play with REW and the equivalence of new subs, using the old boxes and amplifiers. It's a hobby and in the end, it's all about entertainment. The alternative is to buy a bass boat and go sit on a lake.

Just so one doesn't think I'm being a fanboy of SVS, I'm a fanboy of Klipsch, SVS, PSA, Rythmik and Funk Audio so my above is nothing more than encouragement as we all can get locked because of information paralysis. Unfortunately, in the end, there can only be one so one will have to pull the trigger on something or nothing will ever be delivered. If I were to pull the trigger on something today, it would be budget dependent; a pair of PSA, XS30's or a pair of Funk Audio, 18.0 C's. But that's a personal judgement decision, not a knock on anybody else.

There can only be one so ya got's ta pull the trigger on something.

What's your concern that causes you to lay back on putting the order in?

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/17/13 at 3:35am

The following statement is what got my attention. I dont know anything about SB13 Ultra. If you know about it, it is fine, But if you are going ahead with it because of "Audioholics Review" , then it is not a prudent idea. That forum is not a neutral forum (Pro-SVS). Please do your research on other forums before you proceed.

There are other options also at the budget you are planning for (JL F113, Seaton Submersive, Funk Audio 18.0, Velodyne DD-15, etc).


"It was around this time that I saw the Audioholics review contest for the SVS SB13 Ultra. Being a fan of SVS performance based on my experience with the PB12 NSD and seeing as how I could buy 3 SB13s and still have money left over before I get to the cost of the SUB 1, my attention quickly turned to seeing how the SB13 turned out."

SVS has gone expensive in the past 5+ years. So it will not go down as long as folks keep buying their products.

May be you should look at Rythmik and SVS if $1200 is what you want to stick to.

Well was causing to lay back is money. I don't really have, or honestly wanto spend, $1600 right now. I guess i'll wait a few months to see if it gets cheaper or save up and buy it.

I've been researching subs for a year. JL audio F13 is originally what i wanted. You can pretty much guess why i changed my mind. I was going to settle for a Rythmik F12 but in doing more research i saw that the SB13 fits exactly what i need. Very powerful small sealed sub, thats probably close to the JL, and it has PEQ's which i definitely need since my pioneer SC-37 doesn't EQ below 63hz. I am getting an antimode though. The SB13 just has everything i want out of a sealed sub.

By the time i was ready to buy for $1200 they discontinued the SB13 plus. I guess i should stop complaining about the price and just save up. It is improved over the original plus and at least it's not over $3K like the JL. Either way, i'm getting the sub. I'm a 100% sure about that. It's just a matter of when.

Save up and buy what you want. Well worth the wait.

Currently running dual-SB13's. Room is 12'x30+ open floor plan, 9' ceilings. My main seating area is about 10' from the subs, which are co-located in each corner. The SB13's will make your guts turn and feel like you have worms crawling in your face.

So all, I've got a question. For background I've got a Velodyne CHT12 that I've had for ages, and has served me well, but after a Blue Man Group show this weekend, I realized apparently not as well as I'd thought

So I've been pondering upgrades ever since then. I've sort of had a soft spot for SVS since I first started reading about them, but never a good enough reason to buy. Anyway, was looking and the SB13-Ultra looks really nice. But then I got to wondering what's really better, a single SB13-Ultra, or a pair of SB12-NSDs?

The "room" is really the basement, the HT portion is roughly 11'x30', but it's open in various ways to the rest of the basement which amounts to about 1000 square feet with ~7.5' ceilings (ceiling tile), wow that's 7000 cubic feet.

Due to the shape (narrowness) of the room I wouldn't be able to put the subs on opposing walls so they'd have to be on the front wall under/behind my AT screen. It's all run off an AVM50V with ARC so EQs and filters aren't important.

Seems to me:

2 SB12s would get me more surface area, and the dual subs would help with acoustics, but I'd have a bit less power than the single SB13-Ultra.

I'm not even sure I'm going to do anything at this point, but I've got the bug so that means I probably will, but I've not found any good info on using two smaller subs vs one larger one...

The below comments qualify as the short version to a very long, boring, detailed story not worth reading about.

After much anguish, room measurements and machinations of the sub's mechanical parametric settings, combined with AVR parametric settings, Anti-Mode and Audyssey, MultEQ XT and how it all dovetails into personal questions such as your above, I have come to many conclusion for our space that I feel very confident with.

One, our listening room venue, despite all it's inherent foibles, can be mastered to a degree of positive certainty, without need of room treatments; curtains, rugs or bass traps of your choosing,

Conclusion number two, one can "NEVER" expect to get the best out of their subwoofer system without benefit of room measuring capabilities.

The third conclusion, our room's acoustics are better served by three subs, definitely not two and no matter how much one tries, if the room needs a third sub, it needs a third sub..

Conclusion number four, our room will do quite nicely with two lesser subs mixed with one uber better subwoofer and not suffer for it and our bank account will be greatly enriched for this decision.

The point of the above, buy two lesser subs and with measuring equipment, dial your subwoofer system in the best you can and if not happy with the results, expectedly, look to the addition of one, "MUCH BETTER" subwoofer to complete out your subwoofer system.

With the above in mind, a bit of a conundrum exists in most subwoofer types lives. WAF, budget, room limitations, et cetera. So how does one move forward in a positive fashion when life keeps nipping at the heels of their subwoofer wants and desires? And the answer is, half-step and hee-haw your way into the room. And one can do this by first adding two lesser subs. Learn how to get the best out of them possible and then add a third, "MUCH BETTER" subwoofer to the party.

Hope the above helps and good-luck.

...

(just saying, 7,000 ft^3, most likely will demand a fourth sub out of the deal to make it work to your liking)

With that in mind, you may need to up your lesser sub woofer purchase by a level to something along the lines of a pair of PB12-Plus'. If going with SB12-NSD's, for a room that size, I would seriously consider purchasing four from the gate or two with the understanding the two more will be needed.

Something to consider would be, four Klipsch, RW-12d's with an eye on a fifth subwoofer, a SVS, PC13-Ultra. As per your comments, I'm trying to keep my recommendations, SVS centric and at the same time, keeping my eye on the budget.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 3/25/13 at 11:03am