Too Much For Wire?  

Yep whatever works for YOU is good wire,don't let dealers OR random internet posters tell you what you should or should not buy

Yeah, I would never let science get in the way letting the amount of money someone spends dictate their preception of SQ

If you spent more on room treatments then you did on cables then maybe its not that important but if you are actually trying to create the best setup possible then you are focusing $$ on the wrong things.

Think of it this way. If you put $1000 on the table betting there is a difference between that $5.50/ft cable and the $1/ft cable. you would lose that money in a controlled listening test

You are aware that $5.50/ft cable isn't even really the expensive stuff. If you really think it matters and you honestly believe there is an relationship between cable $$$ and SQ then just think of what your system would sound like with with $50/ft cables.

Well I only use the same wire stock that is used in top recording studios and video mastering facilities. Nothing else is good enough for my HT system.

Lets' see, retail cost:

Video cable $0.35 per foot.
12ga Speaker wire: $0.41 per foot
digital audio cable: $0.20 per foot
50' HDMI prebuilt cable $64

It is highly unlikely you will hear any difference from your $5.50/foot speaker wire and speaker wire from Home Depot.

You're probably more polite than me but I would tell your audio sales person that if they knew that much about electrical engineering, they woudn't have to sell home stereo equipment to make a living!

Here:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

No matter what you buy, that is never a good way to make a purchase.

There has never been a direct correlation to $$$ = performance in anything. There is always some product in the same category that will cost less and perform the same. Its how the business world works. Every company has different margins, different market segments they are focusing on.

I suspect that sales guy if on commision made a good profit of you because of that.

The cable business is purely a HUGE profit margin business. Meaning, you are not remotely getting your $$$ worth in SQ improvement if you are focusing/worrying about expensive cable.

That tired old Russel thread is how old now? A lot has happened in the last 30 years. The "testing" he did was pretty suspicious anyway. Didn't he poop out some crappy speakers for a while?

The Audioquest wire won't turn green like the Home Depot crap will. Some people say that is ok, "it still sounds good to me!"

This is pretty much an anti-cable forum anyway, so most opinions here are pretty biased. You really haven't spent that much to get quality cable, I think you did ok.

No, you won't be able to pick out the Audioquest from the Home Depot in a blind test. Nor would you be able to pick out differences in amps, CD players, or lots of other gear. Doesn't mean you made a poor choice on those components either, and it doesn't mean there isn't a real sonic difference.

People really need to relax on the cable topic.

And I think you did open a can of worms, but that is ok. Flames in 3, 2, 1.....

Will he take the wire back? If so:

Home Depot
Lowes
Monoprice
Blue Jeans Cable
Parts Express
etc.

The only thing that matters in >99% of cases is gauge, and that's just a function of cable length. Here's all you need to know and more.

Actually Roger wrote that since 1995. But it doesn't matter. Know physics and electrical engineering cited here is far older than that - at least 100 years. That's how long the engineering community knew expensive speaker wire is a scam - even before it was introduced in the early 1980s.

The OP is a classic but sadly too often told example of how an honest person was scammed by the home AV industry. And it's not always the sales person's fault. Afterall they are not highly skilled in any technology, that's why they sell stereo equipment. They too can get caught up in all the hype due to lack of formal engineering education.

This is a science forum first actually hence the logical replies. You can either understand some science or..

You can ignore the common sense of how business are run and what profit margins exist in the cable business... large profit margin simply means no real benefit in increased SQ. The larger the profit margin the bigger waste of $$$.

You can ignore the simple fact that spending $$$ on room treatments, proper setup/design is far, far, far more important then wasting your very last penny on cables. Heck, the OP could have purchased more content to enjoy (BDs or whatever) then the extra $$ on cables.

Some people work to hard for their money and we are here to help them MAXIMIZE their $$ by explaining what is important. What is your intent? I doubt you care what the guy spends money on actually.

Roger Russells data is just as meaningful today. You know that the science about copper has been around for sometime. Its not like anything new has been proven in the past 20 years and that link isnt more then 10 years old (I thought)

Agreed, you don't have to spend big to get decent cable.


The cable business isn't PURELY profit. Not everyone offering upscale cable is trying to rip you off. You do have to be aware that some companies are trying to gouge you, no matter what the product is. Audioquest makes some good products for the money, they also make stuff that are aimed at people with more money than brains.

But what you said here is pretty sage advice, penngray, basically buyer beware.

Decide for yourself my man. The cheap stuff all the tight-wads here use is just that, cheap ... so easy enough to try some out. Get REAL familiar with a few tracks over a weeks time or so, then swap out to some other cheap "AVSforum approved" cable and get real familiar again. What you hear is all that matters.

Personally I don't use 'expensive' cable, but I don't use cheap zip line either. What ends up staying in a system only stays there after trying out a few different combinations. The differences are subtle, but real enough. The thing is there's no absolute good or bad, just what works given the specifics.

Tell us more about your system and the room that it's in ... pics would be great too.

I am in manufacturing, I get it. I live and breathe logic, reason... and profit.


Agreed, cable should be one of the last things you upgrade. The OP started off with good cable, though, and now he has no need to upgrade for now, those cables should suffice. The focus on cables is over rated compared to tuning your room, proper stands, resonance control, proper setup ( if you didn't employ a tape measure, level, and basic knowledge of acoustics, AT LEAST, you probably don't have a proper setup). Maybe after giving attention to these matters, he can try, and possibly hear, cable differences that will matter in his system.


That data is just as biased as the pro cable data. Quality in cables matters as it does in any other part of the chain.

Ha ha, +1

I think I can tell the difference even between my cheaper cables, even in car stereo applications. Cable differences are part of what drew me into this hobby.

Cable differences are system dependent, so trying out a few kinds should be a prerequisite. Interconnects are often over looked and can make a much larger difference than speaker cables do.

I know a few salesmen/owners that have engineering degrees. To make such an outrageous blanket statement to back up your claims is just, well, outrageous! A knowledgeable, caring salesman has waaaay more experience with various rooms, systems and setups than most wannabe hifi "experts" in this forum.


Roger Russel cites McIntosh's Gordon Gow (and his suspicious, poorly conducted test) as an example of an anti-cable icon. Did you know that there is a cable company that is dedicated to Gordon, and they sell biwire cables! http://www.tributariescable.com/about/history.cfm

Too funnee.

Roger lists his life expereince and education. He was an engineering director at one of the most prestigious audio manufactures for almost his entire career. I don't see that on Audioquests or any other esoteric manufactures site - at least not of which can be traced.

Furthermore as I always point out, professional users such as recording studios and video mastering facilities as well as broadcast do not use any of these esoteric cables. WHY? Surely at the cost of that equipment a $1000 interconnect cable or power cord is not significant price wise. I know because I build such facilities and have done so for 25 years.

Now be careful here. many posters like you clalim the major studios and record labels don't give a damn about quality and that's why they use cheap cables. But if that's true, then the video you watch and music you listen to has already been compromised by cheap cables. So whats the point in expensive cables at the ass end of the whole chain? The point is the quality standards are very high. And so are the employment standards. They hire real electrical engineers to design their systems who understand the engineering behind signal transmission.

P.S. Please also don't show me some magazine add where Monster Cable built out a home studio for BritneySpears using their products. Anybody can figure that deal out.

OK a "few". But for the most part stereo store sales people are right up there with car sales people.


So what is wrong with the test as described? I already know the answer as I have heard it several times before. "The relay boxes are of poor quality and mask the differences between the wires". Did I get it right? Why not show us some accredited, repeatable data that backs up these expensive cable claims and not the typical "golden ears"? I have yet to see any. But there's plenty of hard scientific data that proves these claims are hogwash.

And Pamala Gow was Gordens wife who owned a stereo store chain. She started tributaries after Gorden's death. And Tributraries are not that bad. They are fairly honest with their claims and specs as far as I have seen. A far cry from that junk science in the Audioquest brochure.

And also note that Roger Russle uses Cardas wire in his new tower speakers. And he explains very well why he does. It's for people like you that believe in the wire myth. He's not at all stupid. He's not going to argue with a potential customer.

So was Amar Bose.. What you are saying is that Gordon was THE expert on sound, and NO ONE making cables is. The information is there, if one cares to research it, in answer to your claim of not seeing professional credentials on any cable site.


I am a musician, I have mastered 8 different instruments, and have sat right next to many more... live, along with vocal, and music theory. So what. My ears are no better than yours... and vice versa.

Pro audio is a whole 'nother animal compared to what is experienced or needed in a domestic situation.

Is most of the work you do contracted at a price meant to undercut the competition? Cheap cables help to bring down costs, but those that care will spring for them. Studios are a business too, and many have pretty lousy gear and practices. "I was an audiophile until I found out what they were doing in the studio!" LOL.


Not anywhere CLOSE to the truth. Here is but one example of the technological tour de force you are trying to amaze us with. http://www.mitcables.co.nz/mit-at-the-movies.html Are those B&W speakers?!? Lets face it, this is only one example.


Ok, then please don't make blanket statements, and I will spare us all.

Agreed. Find one you trust and like. This forum makes them all out to be bad guys. Blanket statements.


Blind testing. Hold all receivers, amps, CD players, SACD vs. Red Book, etc, etc. comparisons to the same standard, and see if your choices are worth the extra dough you spent. Subtle, but real differences take time to discern.


How can Tributaries be ok, and the others, not? Do you believe in the biwires they sell?


He doesn't believe in cable differences. So his intent is to rip people "like me" off. Sweet guy.

What exactly is a "cheap cable". The industry standard video cable is Belden 1694 which costs no more than $0.40 retail per foot. Now are you trying to tell me some Chinese sourced cable from Audioquest is superior just because it has a several thousand percent markup?

No, the difference is the people involved in the engineering of these systems know how to perform the electrical measurements and interperte the data to determine what a good quality cable is. Unfortunatly the general public do not have those qualifications and the scam artists move in.

Unless you are talking about stringed instruments, "sound" does not travel through wires. Neither does "pictures". Electrical energy does and unless you can show certifiable data that the electrical signals are influenced by the Chanel or Prada standards of wire, then it's snake oil.

I really love that ad a few years ago where some audiophile cable company showed us a dual trace scope display where the generic cable did show significant rise time slope against their cable. BUT no where did it say what the frequency of the test signal was. It could have been a few megahertz and yes their cable carried it far more faithfully. But that means nothing at 20khz. it's tricks like these that require engineering expertise to expose. At 20khz both cables were probably identical in response.

The idea that some garage company has discovered an electrical phenonmenon that the entire formal electrical engineering community has not is laughable. This is no different than the human cloning or cold fusion announcements of the past few years. You did it! Great, show us your research notes and let us analyze the model. Oh I see, it's proprietary and you want to market it. Ok then go get a patent!

Never happens does it?

P.S. The Skywalker is obviously a paid advertisement. There is one thing true about esoteric cables, they generally don't sound any worse than generic cables either so there's no harm in using them if you have some financial incentive to do so.

I don't get your response? The Gorden Gow test was to compare Monster cable to generic zip cord. It was a blind test as far as I have read. I think it proves quite well there is no difference in the final audio quality. What does that have to do with amps, receivers and CD players?


Are you saying all esoteric cable companies are the same? I never said that. Some are more realistic and honest than others. And no I don't think Bi-Wiring makes and audiable difference. But A credible EE on another thread and I both explained the theory behind bi-wiring and what does really happen which could lead to some measurable (but not audiable IMO) difference. Unfortunalty the engineering theory behind it went over most other posters heads and the thread died out. You audiophiles argue with us engineers even when we agree with some elements of these tall claims. The reason you argue is because you simply can't grasp the true complexity of the subject.


No, that's not what he said or does. The additional cost of the Cardas wire is insignificant to the meat of the whole speaker system so why argue when some people will base their decision to buy soley based on that. They find out generic hookup wire was used inside, the speaker suddenly sounds bad. And if I ever buy one of Rogers $15,000 speaker systems I too will not quibble over the fact that he did use Cardas wire which I don't think makes any difference in the end - good or bad.

Your posts suggest otherwise...but i know you're just 'having fun'.

Ok, then lets just say that my bread and butter are logic and reason. And that this forum is more of a time killer for me than the lifestyle it is for others.

How can you say it doesn't apply? Blind test you favorite amp against a POS, and tell me which is "better".


Stop smothering me with your blanket statements. I argue because I do understand, and I have experience with the topic at hand that most anti-cable guys, no matter how vocal about it, do not. Cables matter.


Then tell him to hold the Cardas and give you the difference back in cash or credit. Use green Home Depot wire, it is said to "sound just fine". Just ask Roger, or read it in his cable link BS.

The best advice.

Only the very best wire touches my system, and most of that is broadcast-grade Belden coax and twisted pair.

At less than $1/foot.

And that's for places where cabling quality is crucial.

For something really basic like speaker wire, you really just need gauge. And that's very cheap. Zip cord works great.

I participated in a rigorous blind test of $20,000 Transparent Opus MM speaker wire. As anyone familiar with science can predict, test failed at discerning any audible difference. A 16 gauge brown extension cord with the ends lopped off sounded just great too.

It's hard to find a better example of blanket statement than that.

Pick up some 12 gauge zip cord and replace the audioquest cable with it going just to your right speaker. Sit back and play all of your best and favorite demo music in 2 channel mode, at all volume levels, while fading back and forth between your mains. It's as easy as pie to do your own A-B testing this way. After you decide which wire sounds the best, looks the best and provides you with the most enjoyment, rewire your entire system with your favorite pick.

You can say that, but as mentioned, your posts suggest otherwise.