or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Longmont Man Indicted On Suspicion of Charity Fraud
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Longmont Man Indicted On Suspicion of Charity Fraud - Page 2

post #31 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So do a lot of people. Me, I see jail time and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got immunity to testify. This is such a well documented matter with a paper trail everywhere. The thing I can't get over is after the forums shut down for several months and then reopened, why oh why didn't they go to another hosting service and just delete all the posts that were made there. They could've spun a story about difficulties in porting things over, data corruption, anything. Having all that stuff going back years made it so easy to access for anyone looking to document what was said, what was raised, and everything else. Sure made it easy for me using searches.

That would have been a good idea if he was looking to do away with any so called evidence, maybe the reason the forum shut down is because of investigators seized his files and such to build their case.

On another not, I'm wondering since he has serious heart issues going on, if this indictment and all of the stress that goes along with it might cause him to die pre-maturely, I hope not as I believe in second chances for people so they can change and make amends the best they can to set a new legacy.
post #32 of 1523
I think it's actually a good thing the drama is over now. Does anyone need anymore proof that you shouldn't buy anything from this company? Not that you are going to be able to for long
post #33 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

So do a lot of people. Me, I see jail time and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got immunity to testify. This is such a well documented matter with a paper trail everywhere. The thing I can't get over is after the forums shut down for several months and then reopened, why oh why didn't they go to another hosting service and just delete all the posts that were made there. They could've spun a story about difficulties in porting things over, data corruption, anything. Having all that stuff going back years made it so easy to access for anyone looking to document what was said, what was raised, and everything else. Sure made it easy for me using searches.

He was never a very smart man IMHO... And although I'm not saying this as an excuse, it makes me wonder how someone so much lacking in reasoning power managed to accomplish so many things... For example, having an almost cult like following, running what seemed to be, for a while at least, successful business, etc...

Btw, a lot of other comments to read in the sub forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...161822&page=79

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamageMcRamage View Post

Does anyone need anymore proof that you shouldn't buy anything from this company?

You'd be surprised... Just read some of the comments in the above link or in the official av321.gone forums...
post #34 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdogroeder View Post

That would have been a good idea if he was looking to do away with any so called evidence, maybe the reason the forum shut down is because of investigators seized his files and such to build their case.

My wife does white collar crime investigations, her computer forensics people could copy every last file and every bit of data on the hard drives from that site and all the office and home computers in a day.

Also, unless they hosted the site themselves there are still back up records at the hosting site so moving hosting companies and deleting wouldn't have necessarily worked.
post #35 of 1523
I believe the forum shutdown was simply damage control for all of their issues and disgruntled customers, and had nothing to do with the raffles. After a fact, it's surprising how he thought he could pull it off, the charity frauds... Which again, brings me back to not that smart... It was way out there, I'm actually surprised it didn't happen earlier, being busted that is. You just have to give him credit for being so charismatic no one ever thought about questioning his intentions. It's pretty damn sick... Pretty much no one saw it coming, he had the good guy routine down so perfectly. So many fanboys, the masses were the perfect cover...

Reminds me of an advertisement for some crappy cheap ass rippoff product, it said something like: "2 millions satisfied customers cannot be wrong!" or some ridiculous thing like that. Group dynamics, psychology, mass delusion, etc.. really not sure what's the correct term, is really powerful. See dozens of people high on kool-aid, and it's like it becomes contagious. Take some man like Schifter, able to play these people to perfection, and he can make them do pretty much anything... We've all seen it in cults and religions for example, mass murders, mass suicides... I believe this was a similar, and somewhat exceptional case here. But in audio... He had so many people fooled, so many willing to follow him blindly, like sheep... Absolutely crazy... Really like a cult following. Scary...
post #36 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

I believe the forum shutdown was simply damage control for all of their issues and disgruntled customers, and had nothing to do with the raffles. After a fact, it's surprising how he thought he could pull it off, the charity frauds... Which again, brings me back to not that smart... It was way out there, I'm actually surprised it didn't happen earlier, being busted that is. You just have to give him credit for being so charismatic no one ever thought about questioning his intentions. It's pretty damn sick... Pretty much no one saw it coming, he had the good guy routine down so perfectly. So many fanboys, the masses were the perfect cover...

Reminds me of an advertisement for some crappy cheap ass rippoff product, it said something like: "2 millions satisfied customers cannot be wrong!" or some ridiculous thing like that. Group dynamics, psychology, mass delusion, etc.. really not sure what's the correct term, is really powerful. See dozens of people high on kool-aid, and it's like it becomes contagious. Take some man like Schifter, able to play these people to perfection, and he can make them do pretty much anything... We've all seen it in cults and religions for example, mass murders, mass suicides... I believe this was a similar, and somewhat exceptional case here. But in audio... He had so many people fooled, so many willing to follow him blindly, like sheep... Absolutely crazy... Really like a cult following. Scary...

I have posted many times that they had issues on the business side because something is shady when you run sales week after week. Something was up all that time.

On the other side, the products are not A COMPLETE SCAM!!! MLS didnt build a damn thing either, they have had some well known builders involved so the products had legit expertise behind them.

AV123 still made value leaders. Their products have had issues but the ones that are 100% are actually really good for their price tag. From the $175 ELT minis shipped to the deals on the 850 rockets and to the dual MWF-15 subs @ $875

There was performance/$$$ in those products and they had better WAF then most others in the same price range.

It was not all smoke and mirrors and its was not all cult like because the performance had data behind it.

Sadly the man stearing the ship was corrupt.
post #37 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post


There was performance/$$$ in those products and they had better WAF then most others in the same price range.

It was not all smoke and mirrors and its was not all cult like because the performance had data behind it.

Remember when all the excuses where made about how poorly the 750 measured by Stereophile? Do you know that AV123 competitors have a difficult time getting anywhere close to AV123 published specs for many AV123 products when they checked out the products for themselves with random samples?
post #38 of 1523
Grandwarf, many of the comments in that thread you linked to have subsequently been deleted. Not sure if you were aware of that or not.

I hate it when my comments get deleted.

Regards,
post #39 of 1523
Hmm.. Yeah, gotta luv it Have a bit of them saved up, sorry for the poor format, it's from the 'download the thread', the quotes separators are missing for example are missing which makes reading a little PITA...

Quote:


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2329]
Author : jehanzeb
Date : 02-26-10 04:52 PM

Which flavor did you get?
Thanks, D.T.MIKE! They sold out of Moho Diamond so next batch should have them. Can't wait.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2330]
Author : JoshKo
Date : 02-26-10 05:52 PM

Publish Date: 2/26/2010

Longmont man indicted on suspicion of charity fraud


© 2010 Longmont Times-Call

LONGMONT - A statewide grand jury on Friday indicted a Longmont man on suspicion of running illegal charity raffles, according to the Colorado Attorney General's Office.

Mark L. Schifter, 54, president of www.********** and Perpetual Technologies, was accused in a five-count indictment of making to the tune of $180,000 by defrauding 707 people in 27 illegal raffles heled from 2004 through 2009. According to the attorney general's office, only $29,500 was distributed to charities. Some charities reported receiving nothing.

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=20988

http://www.timescall.com/assets/pdf/...indictment.pdf

Just another word to the wise about purchasing an MFW.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2331]
Author : Jed M
Date : 02-26-10 05:59 PM

Publish Date: 2/26/2010

Longmont man indicted on suspicion of charity fraud


© 2010 Longmont Times-Call

LONGMONT - A statewide grand jury on Friday indicted a Longmont man on suspicion of running illegal charity raffles, according to the Colorado Attorney General's Office.

Mark L. Schifter, 54, president of www.********** and Perpetual Technologies, was accused in a five-count indictment of making to the tune of $180,000 by defrauding 707 people in 27 illegal raffles heled from 2004 through 2009. According to the attorney general's office, only $29,500 was distributed to charities. Some charities reported receiving nothing.

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=20988

http://www.timescall.com/assets/pdf/...indictment.pdf

Just another word to the wise about purchasing an MFW.

I think that qualifies as negative. Reread the thread title.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2332]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-26-10 06:05 PM

Publish Date: 2/26/2010

Longmont man indicted on suspicion of charity fraud


© 2010 Longmont Times-Call

LONGMONT - A statewide grand jury on Friday indicted a Longmont man on suspicion of running illegal charity raffles, according to the Colorado Attorney General's Office.

Mark L. Schifter, 54, president of www.********** and Perpetual Technologies, was accused in a five-count indictment of making to the tune of $180,000 by defrauding 707 people in 27 illegal raffles heled from 2004 through 2009. According to the attorney general's office, only $29,500 was distributed to charities. Some charities reported receiving nothing.

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=20988

http://www.timescall.com/assets/pdf/...indictment.pdf

Just another word to the wise about purchasing an MFW.

I think that qualifies as negative. Reread the thread title.

Right! Let him defraud people in peace!!!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2333]
Author : Shed
Date : 02-26-10 06:06 PM

I think that qualifies as negative. Reread the thread title.

I don't think that a statement of fact qualifies as personal bashing or negativity. This may be an important relevant consideration for anyone thinking about making a purchase.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2334]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-26-10 06:07 PM

What that he scammed people? Look, no negativity in this thread, it's simple, it's negative, it shouldn't be posted here. People want to read the only the positive. Ok, actually, a scammer is being brought to justice... That's pretty positive!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2335]
Author : FoSheezy
Date : 02-26-10 06:09 PM

Shady dude, but awesome subs!!!!
well, sometimes...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2336]
Author : gonk
Date : 02-26-10 06:23 PM

i think that qualifies as negative. Reread the thread title.
:d

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2337]
Author : diamonddelts
Date : 02-26-10 09:20 PM

Publish Date: 2/26/2010

Longmont man indicted on suspicion of charity fraud


© 2010 Longmont Times-Call

LONGMONT - A statewide grand jury on Friday indicted a Longmont man on suspicion of running illegal charity raffles, according to the Colorado Attorney General's Office.

Mark L. Schifter, 54, president of www.********** and Perpetual Technologies, was accused in a five-count indictment of making to the tune of $180,000 by defrauding 707 people in 27 illegal raffles heled from 2004 through 2009. According to the attorney general's office, only $29,500 was distributed to charities. Some charities reported receiving nothing.

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?ID=20988

http://www.timescall.com/assets/pdf/...indictment.pdf

Just another word to the wise about purchasing an MFW.

Like I said before. I would not touch anything from this shady p.o.s. with a 10 foot pole. It's already sad enough that people have been buying these things with future repairs in mind already. Definitely not a quality product. Nor a honorable owner.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2338]
Author : cschang
Date : 02-26-10 09:50 PM

Like I said before. I would not touch anything from this shady p.o.s. with a 10 foot pole. It's already sad enough that people have been buying these things with future repairs in mind already. Definitely not a quality product. Nor a honorable owner.
I agree with you, but many people look the other way when they think they are getting a great deal.

Another article in the Denver Post:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_14...#ixzz0ghAw887f

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2339]
Author : goonstopher
Date : 02-26-10 09:54 PM

This is 100% relevant because if the company faces financial issues and the owner is either serving time or getting crazy fines then the technical support can't be there if the company doesn't have the funds.

This could get even worse for them if it brings up the issue of all the pre-sale scams.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2340]
Author : theelviscerator
Date : 02-26-10 09:55 PM

I just disagree with the general tone of the people who insinuate somehow being a customer of MLS makes you a criminal also.

Hindsight is twenty twenty, and merely owning an MFW doesnt make you a crook.

Say what you will, some good speakers did exit the factory.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2341]
Author : Hksvr4
Date : 02-26-10 10:08 PM

I think that qualifies as negative. Reread the thread title.

Reread the thread. This thread is full of negatives.

I have been following the MFW-15 since it came out. At first I was saving up for the sub but when I have enough funds to order one, the problem started happening. It's a good thing I didn't buy one. Now this happened. I heard about his "charity" work as well. I also read about not giving back. I didn't believe it until now.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2342]
Author : cmryan821
Date : 02-26-10 10:12 PM

I just disagree with the general tone of the people who insinuate somehow being a customer of MLS makes you a criminal also.

Hindsight is twenty twenty, and merely owning an MFW doesnt make you a crook.

I must have missed where anyone said that owning av321 stuff made you a criminal. I don't think mls apologists have done the public at large any favors but I still wouldn't call them criminals.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2343]
Author : monomer
Date : 02-26-10 10:16 PM

If MLS is convicted and does time, would anyone care to speculate on what effect this might have on the operations at AV123? and subsequent MFW support?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2344]
Author : JoshKo
Date : 02-26-10 10:19 PM

If MLS is convicted and does time, would anyone care to speculate on what effect this might have on the operations at AV123? and MFW support?

monomer,

I think you know the answer to that question.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2345]
Author : godzen
Date : 02-26-10 10:22 PM

If MLS is convicted and does time, would anyone care to speculate on what effect this might have on the operations at AV123? and subsequent MFW support?



down the drain. Legal fees are not cheap. I love my MFW-15 especially for the price I paid. Not going to stress out too much if this company goes under. I'm sure mark seaton will come out with his kick-ass mfw-15 turbo kit soon.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2346]
Author : Randy Bessinger
Date : 02-26-10 10:30 PM

I just disagree with the general tone of the people who insinuate somehow being a customer of MLS makes you a criminal also.
WHo insinuated that? That would not be very logical. That being said, certainly both current owners with warranty left and potential owners would be interested in a company where the viablity of the company is questioned because the owner may go to jail. MLS has not been convicted but the charity issues have been well vented here and elsewhere and many have seemed to think it wasn't relevant or was explainable (you know he said he is sorry and trying to make things right besides it is all those negative people like well Chu). The grand jury seems to think differently.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2347]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-26-10 10:32 PM

The company is already strapped for cash, the result of this fraudulent criminal behavior might just be the last nail in the coffin. He's been digging his own grave scamming people... The closure of this rotten ID company might be imminent... Certainly I wouldn't invest in this company or their products... And imho, them closing shop might not be such a bad thing, would at least prevent others of getting scammed, like the what, 700 mentioned people?

Even non-discontinued products seem to have no replacements parts, I can't imagine now with these legal issues how the service or the company will be. And it should definitely damage the company, if it doesn't, and that doesn't discourage people to do business with them, then imho that raises question about the ethics of the people involved. It doesn't make them criminals, but surely it speaks loud and clear that if there's a buck to be made, they have no issue dealing with scammers, people who have stolen charity money, etc. and that speaks volume about them...

They, av321.gone, were always pretty much centered on the hype that this one mascot character presented. The Santa persona, the such a nice and generous guy, the charities, the special sales... Now that he's been exposed as the scammer that he is, they should go down the drain. But hey, other scammers, Peter Poppoff for example, http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...q=peter+popoff were also exposed, and some brain dead morons are still willing to trust him and send him their money... So who knows, if some still hold the illusion that they're getting a superior product (for whatever reason), and that this guy is so nice that he's selling speakers under cost and whatnot, then maybe they'll survive... People's memory are short, I'm sure some won't even by phased by any of this, they'll make up some excuses and rationalizations about how this happened so that it doesn't contradict their beliefs that this guy and company was something fantastic... Some in the av321.gone forums are feeling bad for the guy, because, according to them, he must feel so bad... Yeah sure now that he's caught... For years he had no issue scamming all those people, for the tune of 150,000$ Jebus... Wake up people...

Like I said before. I would not touch anything from this shady p.o.s. with a 10 foot pole. It's already sad enough that people have been buying these things with future repairs in mind already. Definitely not a quality product. Nor a honorable owner.
Two years ago, maybe even less, you'd have been crucified for these words. Hell, even I was somewhat fooled. I knew something was definitely off with them, but I was only seeing the tip of the iceberg, it was well worst that I could even imagine. But some didn't even see the iceberg, they saw a mirage, the paradise island... And oh boy did they hate it when someone didn't see what they saw...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2348]
Author : monomer
Date : 02-26-10 10:33 PM

monomer,

I think you know the answer to that question.
Actually I don't know nearly as much as you might be giving me credit for... are MLS and AV123 inseparable entities that should he go down doing hard time with some big guy named Bubba as a cell mate, do all company operations just cease? or what? Is it possible the company might be able to recover once MLS is hampered from doing marketing and decision making capacities and essentially kept out of the way for awhile? or is it too late?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2349]
Author : JoshKo
Date : 02-26-10 10:36 PM

monomer,

If convicted (and there is some very damning information on him) I don't believe there will be an AV123, or warranties.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2350]
Author : stevo238
Date : 02-26-10 10:46 PM

I think that qualifies as negative. Reread the thread title.

I think Jed M. meant this as sarcasm folks.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2351]
Author : JoshKo
Date : 02-26-10 10:51 PM

A little more coverage here: http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-c...#axzz0ghf1UIUq

"Schifter was arrested on Friday afternoon and booked into the Boulder County Jail."

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2352]
Author : monomer
Date : 02-26-10 10:53 PM

A little more coverage here: http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-c...#axzz0ghf1UIUq

"Schifter was arrested on Friday afternoon and booked into the Boulder County Jail."
In that case, he'd better cool it with all those hugs and kisses...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2353]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-26-10 10:56 PM

In that case, he'd better cool it with all those hugs and kisses...

Priceless..

All the best to you Schifty.. Have fun in jail, hope you enjoy your stay there for a long time.. Something very special I hope..

Humbly..

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2354]
Author : JoshKo
Date : 02-26-10 11:01 PM

In that case, he'd better cool it with all those hugs and kisses...



He also frequently used the term "man hug" ................

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2355]
Author : monomer
Date : 02-26-10 11:14 PM



He also frequently used the term "man hug" ................
I'll bet they have a different terminology for that kind of stuff down at county...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2356]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-26-10 11:17 PM

Let's just hope that people don't get burned by all of this... I'd cancel orders, for those who have prepaid for crap and never gotten their products, or for those who have gift certificates and the such, for those waiting for replacement parts, man, do your best to do what you can asap... It's probably already too late for most, but for some there might be some salvaging, with a recent purchase for example, I'd call the CC and get the order canceled ASAP...

Unlike what humbly bumbly hinted at, the big changes for 2010, I doubt they'll be for the best. I just hope he likes the new decor, but he talked with his lawyers about lots of things, so maybe he did foresee all of this and this is what he was hinting at... lol

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2357]
Author : JoshKo
Date : 02-26-10 11:25 PM

Let's just hope that people don't get burned by all of this... I'd cancel orders, for those who have prepaid for crap and never gotten their products, or for those who have gift certificates and the such, for those waiting for replacement parts, man, do your best to do what you can asap... It's probably already too late for most, but for some there might be some salvaging, with a recent purchase for example, I'd call the CC and get the order canceled ASAP

I agree, that's pretty sound advice.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2358]
Author : ufokillerz
Date : 02-26-10 11:30 PM

wow that can't be good. hopefully the company sticks around, the stuff they sell ain't bad, but what MLS has been doing, i can't foresee everyone in the company being involved.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2359]
Author : Faceless Rebel
Date : 02-27-10 12:11 AM

wow that can't be good. hopefully the company sticks around, the stuff they sell ain't bad, but what MLS has been doing, i can't foresee everyone in the company being involved.

There are several other ID speaker companies out there selling great product not run by people who have been indicted and arrested for massive fraudulent activities. These other companies have sterling reputations, too. There's no reason for AV123 to keep existing when it's competitors were already much better than they were even before their founder was arrested.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2360]
Author : goonstopher
Date : 02-27-10 12:19 AM

wow that can't be good. hopefully the company sticks around, the stuff they sell ain't bad, but what MLS has been doing, i can't foresee everyone in the company being involved.

Even better, he sells the design to another company (maybe back to Mark Seaton) and it is sold with proper QC and a better driver

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2361]
Author : Snowmanick
Date : 02-27-10 12:43 AM

Actually I don't know nearly as much as you might be giving me credit for... are MLS and AV123 inseparable entities that should he go down doing hard time with some big guy named Bubba as a cell mate, do all company operations just cease? or what? Is it possible the company might be able to recover once MLS is hampered from doing marketing and decision making capacities and essentially kept out of the way for awhile? or is it too late?

One possible outcome, even if MLS is able to be separated from the company, the concerns over and frustration with the indictment could cause a "run on the bank" type mentality against AV123. So even if they hypothetically are/were keeping their head above the water up the cancellations of orders/ loss of pending sales, additional costs to keep their product desirable (marketing, discounting, etc) and increased demand for warranty parts or refunds due to concerns could push them past their threshold.

Its just a possibility but it has a fair amount of plausibility just based off of the responses on a few forums to this particular event. Factor in what seems to be diminished enthusiasm for the brand, reported QC issues over the past 1-2 years, and a tight economy, and its easy to picture a dark future for AV***.

That's even assuming MLS and AV*** could even be separated.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2362]
Author : unclepauly
Date : 02-27-10 01:19 AM

publish date: 2/26/2010

longmont man indicted on suspicion of charity fraud


© 2010 longmont times-call

longmont - a statewide grand jury on friday indicted a longmont man on suspicion of running illegal charity raffles, according to the colorado attorney general's office.

Mark l. Schifter, 54, president of www.********** and perpetual technologies, was accused in a five-count indictment of making to the tune of $180,000 by defrauding 707 people in 27 illegal raffles heled from 2004 through 2009. According to the attorney general's office, only $29,500 was distributed to charities. Some charities reported receiving nothing.

http://www.timescall.com/news_story.asp?id=20988

http://www.timescall.com/assets/pdf/...indictment.pdf

just another word to the wise about purchasing an mfw.

Dude my mfw-15 rocks!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2363]
Author : yadfgp
Date : 02-27-10 01:37 AM

Dude my mfw-15 rocks!


Mine does as well!

I am a bit nervous seeing as how I just received it yesterday. Damn my timing sucks.

So far I love the thing, but damnit, damnit, damnit...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2364]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-27-10 07:39 AM

Dude my mfw-15 rocks!
You mean, your stolen charity money sponsored mfw-15 rocks! I don't know, I still think there's an ethical issue about purchasing anything from crooks like Schifter, who went as low to stealing charity money, taking advantage of the sick, dying, etc... Purchasing anything from him or his company is a slap in the face of everyone who's been hurt and scammed by this crook, and it definitely shows condonation, which he doesn't deserve. But by all means, hype away... Like I said, some will act like nothing ever happened...

You know there's a term: "Blood money". So what could these subs be called? Blood subs? Charity fraud subs? Stolen charity donation subs? Scam subs?

I am a bit nervous seeing as how I just received it yesterday.
It's not like you were not aware of these issues. You were probably just too greedy, I just hope you'll learn from your mistake...

I guess it's thanks to the help of people like you, he's still able to run his business... Some are wishing him good luck and stuff... Good luck for what, sleazing out of his fraud accusations? I hope he gets it good and that all the people he's wronged at least get some sort of retribution. The count was what? >700? This isn't a good guy, it's a liar, an hypocrit, a fraud who's taken advantage of many people. He absolutely deserves all he's getting. He's been scamming people for years. I'm sure he has no regrets, other than getting caught.

It reminds me of Helena Guergis, oh she's so sorry about her actions... Only because she was caught, you can be sure that the apology is the hypochrisy, and you can be sure that Schifter will post some great message about how he's sorry and all that, yeah, right... He's such a good guy... Earl Jones was also crying on the stand about all those people he stole all that money from all those years... What a ****ing joke, yet some are naive enough to buy it and still think he's a decent guy (Schifter that is)... Only in audio, and only for schifty of av321.gone... "The cult members" some call them, is that term really that far from the truth?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2365]
Author : utahsavages
Date : 02-27-10 08:18 AM

I'd like to advocate more socially responsible audiophile purchases. Maybe they could put little stickers on the equipment - kind of like they do with some of the movies you see in the theater. "No baby seals were harmed during the manufacture of this center channel".

I know I would sleep better at night. And it would certainly enhance my enjoyment of Die Hard 3.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2366]
Author : django1
Date : 02-27-10 08:52 AM

I hope he gets it good and that all the people he's wronged at least get some sort of retribution. The count was what? >700? This isn't a good guy, it's a liar, an hypocrit, a fraud who's taken advantage of many people. He absolutely deserves all he's getting. He's been scamming people for years. I'm sure he has no regrets, other than getting caught.



I was banned from av123 for calling out MLS on the charity money. That is to establish my cred. The tone of your post is the same as that of av123 apologists but on the other end of the spectrum: extreme . He was never Gandhi but he isn't Hitler either. I hope Mark gets a reasonable punishment. He certainly seems to have stolen money, I'll trust the judge to determine that. He also delivered really nice product at a really great price. I doubt that he could have financed all of those great prices with the purported 180,000$ that he stole. If he did then he would also be a financial genius.

He certainly is a complex personality and he has many faults and flaws. I'm sure he has many qualities as well. There is no need to make him out as worse than he is. He is in the process of being quite adequately punished and has been in that process for some time. He will be shunned by all but the most hardcore of his supporters. At 54 it won't be an easy thing to start over.

I don't see a reason for piling on people who want to get a good price. If they can hold their noses and make the purchase... This is not terribly different from buying at a bankruptcy sale or from Walmart for that matter. Not that I'll be buying anything but "blood subs"? Come on, get a little perspective in what your saying. I'll grant you that one person who should have received money from the charities died but we are very far from cause and effect. Also keep in mind that for av123 to make financial retribution they need sales. You can't have it both ways.

I'm quite saddened by this outcome even though it is the right one. Everyone loses...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2367]
Author : HuskerHarley
Date : 02-27-10 09:20 AM

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1204/...ac2b1b.jpg?v=0

HH

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2368]
Author : Grandarf
Date : 02-27-10 09:49 AM

I was banned from av123 for calling out MLS on the charity money. That is to establish my cred. The tone of your post is the same as that of av123 apologists but on the other end of the spectrum: extreme . He was never Gandhi but he isn't Hitler either.
I never said he was Hitler... Did I attributed to him anything which wasn't demonstrated to be true? Seriously?

This isn't a good guy, it's a liar, an hypocrit, a fraud who's taken advantage of many people. He absolutely deserves all he's getting. He's been scamming people for years. I'm sure he has no regrets, other than getting caught.
He's been shown to lie over and over again... Just take these raffles, ok, so far he's not been declared guilty, but that's just a matter of time, the Sloan-Kettering charity fraud is just a phone call away for you confirm for yourself.

This wasn't ONE charity raffle whose donations didn't get to the intended recipient... It spawned what, over more than five years for ch*** sakes... During all this time, this hypocrite pretended to be a nice guy and still stole money from the people he baffled into thinking he was a decent guy. And no he wasn't, he isn't, a decent guy... A decent guy wouldn't have stolen charity money and taken advantage of all those people like he did. Just look up the definition of decent, he doesn't even make that grade, yeah sure he's not Hitler, but on a scale of lowlifes, he'd be down near the bottom, near the other scum like B.Maddoff and the such.

A crackhead who steals a convenience store would rate higher according to me. He didn't purposely betray and steal from the people who trusted him... He didn't lie to their faces, smile to them, and then backstabbed them... He didn't steal from charities for g**'s sake...

Anyhow, we're way off topic here. "He also delivered really nice product at a really great price", that's arguable, and definitely only when on sale and not with the overblown MSRP white van scam type schemes he used. How much of that is really true, and how much was hype? Anyhow, he made a buck, and ran a, again arguably, successful business. Don't make him into Mother Theresa because you think he sold good products... Don't you think it's possible he was only in it for the money? Seriously... His image is a very important part of what made his business work. Don't doubt he was well aware of that. Hell, he took full advantage of it with the raffles. I think he's taken advantage of people's naivety. As simple as that. And the fact that some still today show faith in him is a testament to that naivety...

He certainly is a complex personality and he has many faults and flaws. I'm sure he has many qualities as well.
You talked about Hitler, I brought up Madoff, you could also say they had complex personalities, many faults, but that they had qualities at well. But that's largely irrelevant considering. And yeah, there is no need to make him worst than he is, but more to the point there is no need to make him out better than he is either. Actions speak louder than words. His actions outweighs his hypocritical lies and all the fluff he's used to beguile all these people... Was it all fake? Who knows, as I said, he stole from the people he claimed to care about, he stole from charities, he lied repeatedly, I think it's wiser to look at his actions and not his words. (lies)

As I said, everyone is so very sorry when they're caught, but they seem to have no issue committing the crimes. I don't buy it. He wouldn't have, over the span of years, continually stolen donated charity money if he was a decent guy, and I'm not even saying a nice guy... Just look how he treated others, for example Jed M, and many others. He's a two faced hypocrite. You're naive if you think otherwise... He's screwed A LOT of people. I don't buy the "he's a good guy who bad things just happened to happen to him". If he was a decent individual he'd never be in this mess.


I don't see a reason for piling on people who want to get a good price. If they can hold their noses and make the purchase... This is not terribly different from buying at a bankruptcy sale or from Walmart for that matter. Not that I'll be buying anything but "blood subs"? Come on, get a little perspective in what your saying. I'll grant you that one person who should have received money from the charities died but we are very far from cause and effect. Also keep in mind that for av123 to make financial retribution they need sales. You can't have it both ways.
Ok here I'll grant you this, you have a point here. But buying from WalMart is not the same as buying from av321.gone or this crook MLS. Walmart is way more ethical than Schifter.

Still, I still hold the point that ethics should play a role in buying from Schifter or his company or not. Surely, it's not to the point as themselves supporting stealing charity money and the such, but, it does show some condonation.

I honestly think what he's done is absolutely despicable. And I don't buy his soon to come apology and claims of remorse. I would never, ever, purchase anything from him for as long as I live. Even if one of his sub or whatever was 90% off, 4.99$, I would not touch it. It would not feel right doing any business with this scam artist nor having one of his products in my home. But that's me...

Hell, he even once invited himself to my home to demo his products and show what a nice guy he was. Even then, and that was a couple of years ago, I wanted nothing to do with him because it didn't feel right. For some reason, I (and others) had no trouble seeing through the hype and this character... Guess I already thought he stunk like those other scam artists... I know it was just a feeling, but I hate to say it but I was absolutely right... Baffles my mind that even today, some still support him and give him credit for being a nice guy and stuff... Come on... What would it take to open some people's eyes?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2369]
Author : utahsavages
Date : 02-27-10 10:22 AM

Thank you for the wonderful moral and spiritual audiophile guidance.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Post 2370]
Author : goneten
Date : 02-27-10 10:36 AM

You talked about Hitler, I brought up Madoff, you could also say they had complex personalities, many faults, but that they had qualities at well.

Hitler was a good cook and a loving husband and father to his children. He also could boogie with the best of them.

Regards,

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Downloaded from AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb) at 02-27-10 10:43 AM.

Sorry I didn't get them all, didn't think about saving the thread at my last visit...
post #40 of 1523
You left out my post concerning Bob. The more people that know about Bob, the better.

Regards,
post #41 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

You left out my post concerning Bob. The more people that know about Bob, the better.

Regards,

Sorry for your loss but that is absolutely hilarious in terms of how twisted this guy is.

The pre-sale scams are almost as objectionable as the charity stuff.

Boy am I glad I chose to deal with Jeff at JTR than MLS at av123. I was considering rockets and mfw but definitely made the right choice
post #42 of 1523
The funny thing is, as much grief as I endured, it was nothing compared to some of the other stories I've heard from other members. I was one of the 'lucky' ones.

Regards,
post #43 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

The funny thing is, as much grief as I endured, it was nothing compared to some of the other stories I've heard from other members. I was one of the 'lucky' ones.

Regards,

Yeah like the 5K or 6k+ pre orders wow
post #44 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarpon View Post

Remember when all the excuses where made about how poorly the 750 measured by Stereophile? Do you know that AV123 competitors have a difficult time getting anywhere close to AV123 published specs for many AV123 products when they checked out the products for themselves with random samples?

Much of the performance problems were not with the original designs, but the shoddy workmanship and lack of QA/QC.
post #45 of 1523
Stupid is as stupid does.
post #46 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdogroeder View Post

That would have been a good idea if he was looking to do away with any so called evidence, maybe the reason the forum shut down is because of investigators seized his files and such to build their case.

The case was built after the fact.

Quote:


On another not, I'm wondering since he has serious heart issues going on, if this indictment and all of the stress that goes along with it might cause him to die pre-maturely, I hope not as I believe in second chances for people so they can change and make amends the best they can to set a new legacy.

I hope not either but please excuse my apparent insensitivity and jadedness, but I'd want to see a doctor's note. He's had a lot of chances over the years. Time to pay the piper. I never want to see him in this business again.
post #47 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

Much of the performance problems were not with the original designs, but the shoddy workmanship and lack of QA/QC.

It hardly matters why a product doesn't perform up to specs or promises. It just matters that it doesn't.

My Aperion and SVS products perform up to specs and promises and it hardly matters why they do. It just matters that they do. That's all I care about, I gave the companies money and they gave me product which performs as promised. They also were a pleasure to deal with and their founders have not been arrested for charges of massive fraud and larceny.
post #48 of 1523
It's hard not to feel bad for those AV123 customers that actually felt the Mark was a "friend" that they knew online, talked on the phone with, and even had dinner with. I remember reading posts on that site of people talking about how Mark personally gave them a demo, and then took them out for steaks, etc. These are exactly the type of people that participated in those "raffles", and who Mark stole from. The funny thing is a lot of those people praised Mark for his "generosity". I guess it's easy to be generous to the people you're stealing from. He didn't technically steal from any charities, but certainly some of that money was taken from people who would have donated to real charities and instead used that money to give to Mark, thinking it would be used for charitable purposes.

Another sad thing in this whole scenario is that the people that had put in deposits for his speakers will certainly never receive them now. It's highly doubtful Mark would try to make good on those sales now with all the legal and financial problems he's having, and it's not like he was trying very hard beforehand either. It's unlikely they would ever get their money back either as it's hard to imagine a scenario where AV123 won't go into receivership. Customers are usually among the last creditors to be paid in any liquidation, and I doubt there will be much in the coffers to go around in the first place.
post #49 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

It's hard not to feel bad for those AV123 customers that actually felt the Mark was a "friend" that they knew online, talked on the phone with, and even had dinner with.

It's pretty hard for me to feel bad for the ones that continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. I not only don't feel bad for them, I think they're swine.


Quote:


He didn't technically steal from any charities

That seems like a needless distinction. He committed charitable fraud and theft.
post #50 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

It's pretty hard for me to feel bad for the ones that continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. I not only don't feel bad for them, I think they're swine.

We can't all be perfect like you>>>

HH
post #51 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

He didn't technically steal from any charities, but certainly some of that money was taken from people who would have donated to real charities and instead used that money to give to Mark, thinking it would be used for charitable purposes.

I think that collecting donations in the name of a charity and then not delivering qualifies as some form of theft - and judging by the indictment, that's also the way the Colorado Attorney General felt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

Another sad thing in this whole scenario is that the people that had put in deposits for his speakers will certainly never receive them now. It's highly doubtful Mark would try to make good on those sales now with all the legal and financial problems he's having, and it's not like he was trying very hard beforehand either. It's unlikely they would ever get their money back either as it's hard to imagine a scenario where AV123 won't go into receivership. Customers are usually among the last creditors to be paid in any liquidation, and I doubt there will be much in the coffers to go around in the first place.

There are a number of individuals who requested refunds on various purchases back in 2008 and have yet to see a dime. The likelihood of them getting paid back was already looking painfully small. I doubt that this indictment has improved their odds, but I also doubt it appeciably decreased the either. As for the RSL-II beta testers, the issues there are two-fold. The first issue is the speaker's development status: it seems to have been trapped in an unchanging limbo for the better part of three years now. The second is who they did business with: Act-3 Audio (or however it is spelled) is doing the RSL-II, not AV123. That company's been a virtual ghost from the get-go, and it still has no web presence in spite of reports that a site was "almost ready" several years ago.
post #52 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

It's pretty hard for me to feel bad for the ones that continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. I not only don't feel bad for them, I think they're swine.

I don't know who are the "ones" you are referring to, but I doubt many people are going to come to Mark's defense now that the facts have come to light. Keep in mind that many of the posters on a variety of forums that have been supporting AV123 are moles for the company itself, so in those case, your "swine" comment might have some validity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

That seems like a needless distinction. He committed charitable fraud and theft.

Whether that distinction is "needless" is your subjective view, but it is a distinction nevertheless. The fact is Mark never stole from any charities as has been misrepresented by some posters on this thread. He stole from his own customers under a guise that he was representing charities. But you're missing the whole point which is even though he didn't technically steal from any charities, the money that he did stole could very well have been earmarked for charitable causes by his customers.
post #53 of 1523
Don't quit your day job with delusions of becoming a lawyer because you're wrong.
post #54 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

I think that collecting donations in the name of a charity and then not delivering qualifies as some form of theft - and judging by the indictment, that's also the way the Colorado Attorney General felt.

Agreed, he did steal, just not technically from charities, but rather from his own customers. Stealing from a charity would necessitate his taking money that belonged to a charity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

There are a number of individuals who requested refunds on various purchases back in 2008 and have yet to see a dime. The likelihood of them getting paid back was already looking painfully small. I doubt that this indictment has improved their odds, but I also doubt it appeciably decreased the either. As for the RSL-II beta testers, the issues there are two-fold. The first issue is the speaker's development status: it seems to have been trapped in an unchanging limbo for the better part of three years now. The second is who they did business with: Act-3 Audio (or however it is spelled) is doing the RSL-II, not AV123. That company's been a virtual ghost from the get-go, and it still has no web presence in spite of reports that a site was "almost ready" several years ago.

No disagreement here, except that the customers that paid deposits now have nearly zero chance of receiving either the speakers or their money back. If Mark wasn't going to jail and the company was continuing, there might have been at least a tiny chance those customers might have seen the speakers eventually.
post #55 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Don't quit your day job with delusions of becoming a lawyer because you're wrong.

Are you referring to me? If so, you're wrong as I certainly have no desire to be a lawyer whatsoever.
post #56 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

No disagreement here, except that the customers that paid deposits now have nearly zero chance of receiving either the speakers or their money back. If Mark wasn't going to jail and the company was continuing, there might have been at least a tiny chance those customers might have seen the speakers eventually.

That seems to be the nature of Ponzi-like schemes though. If only Madoff had been able to dig himself out of a hole investment-wise before his fraud was exposed, then his clients could have received more of their money back than they did. If his scheme had been discovered when the Dow was briefly up to 10,700 this year, then the damage would have been a lot less. But it just happened to have been discovered when the market was near a multi-year low. Gee, why didn't law enforcement wait for the Dow to come back before busting Madoff? The answer is obvious.
post #57 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by rock_bottom View Post

That seems to be the nature of Ponzi-like schemes though. If only Madoff had been able to dig himself out of a hole investment-wise before his fraud was exposed, then his clients could have received more of their money back than they did. If his scheme had been discovered when the Dow was briefly up to 10,700 this year, then the damage would have been a lot less. But it just happened to have been discovered when the market was near a multi-year low. Gee, why didn't law enforcement wait for the Dow to come back before busting Madoff? The answer is obvious.

No disagreement here, the business practices of Mark and his company has always seemed questionable to me, especially in light of their product defects and complaints from their customers of not receiving speakers they have paid for. To use the Madoff analogy, if Mark hadn't been busted, he might have made an attempt to prolong the scam by paying off the earlier "investors" i.e. customers eventually, but taking money from new customers and not delivering at the same time.
post #58 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Don't quit your day job with delusions of becoming a lawyer because you're wrong.

This is what the attorney general said: "This scam not only defrauded Colorado consumers, but it also preyed on their generosity."

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_14...#ixzz0gnhOaFcF

Yes, he defrauded "consumers", not charities, which makes you the one that's wrong.

Looks like you're the Perry Mason-wannabe here and a bad one at that.
post #59 of 1523
Another analogy might be musical chairs. Depending on when the music stops, a different person may be without a chair. But the deck is stacked. There are always less chairs than people playing the game at each round. In Mark's case, as long as somebody had a chair, that made the game appear legitimate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

...the business practices of Mark and his company has always seemed questionable to me...

Phony charity raffles shouldn't be considered "business practices" though. They are out-and-out fraud. The whole situation is much more complex than just bad business practices.
post #60 of 1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

It's pretty hard for me to feel bad for the ones that continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. I not only don't feel bad for them, I think they're swine.




That seems like a needless distinction. He committed charitable fraud and theft.

Get a mirror. Study the image hard. It will do you some good.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Longmont Man Indicted On Suspicion of Charity Fraud