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Samsung PNXXc450 Owners Thread *NO PRICE TALK* - Page 3

post #61 of 1729
3/4/10 at 12:52pm
I don't notice any line bleed. I just got done playing some Wii and The buzzing is not as loud as some might make it to be. I can really only notice it buzzing on the no signal screen. It has only a little bit more of a buzz than a regular CRT tv might have.

edit: I also just used the settings mentioned in the first post and the picture even looks much better thanks.
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post #62 of 1729
3/4/10 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Those are reviews for 42 inch size units. Same number of pixels, as for the 50 inch panel, but much smaller, so that might have a big effect in noticing the black dividing lines.

How do we know the 42's have the same number of pixels as the 50's? In past years:

42 768p = 1024x768 (786,432 rectangular pixels)
50 768p = 1366x768 (1,049,088 square p0ixels)

Not the same amount of pixels. I can see jaggies on text on the 42 inchers from around 8 feet away.
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post #63 of 1729
3/4/10 at 1:03pm
It's very easy to check for line bleed using test patterns, and known content which triggers it. If you have a movie like Cars or A Bug's Life go to the end, or any movie which has credits scrolling on the right at the same time as a movie window on the left, and you will see ghost lines from the scrolling credits going right through the animated window on the left. The ghost lines will scroll upwards in line with the credits, so it will flicker a bit, and be easily noticeable if you pay attention.

Or simply download the Pioneer demos called Kuro Best I/II from the 2008 Kuro demo disc below and watch for the models in blue and red dresses on the stairs. If you look closely, the lines formed by the stairs will run right through their dresses and arms, etc. as a ghost line. Obviously Pioneer was proud of their ability to not show horizontal line-bleed, and that's why they placed that clip on their demo disc, to show how the other manufacturers were not as good.

http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/hi...n-trailers.php
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post #64 of 1729
3/4/10 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Alright, I figured out what the "scan lines" are, there is a solid black line of nothing between each horizontal row of pixels, each one of these lines is roughly half as thick as the pixel rows. (and the pixels are rectangular like on the 42inch models) After I figured this out I remembered a CES interview where a Samsung Rep said they were doing this on all their sets to improve the blacks in room lighting, they said that any blank spot between pixels would be "painted" black, what they didn't say was that they were going to add blank spots to achieve this.
(my 42px75 Panasonic plasma has no spacers between the pixels, and I would bet money that none of the previous years of Samsung plasma sets had them either)

Normally I can sit 8.5 feet from a 50inch 720p plasma set to get all signs of screen door effect to vanish, but thanks to these black lines, I have to move to 14.5 feet to get them to vanish. I would guess that roughly 1/3 of the screen is made up of these lines, maybe more.

At least this actually does make the blacks look good in room lighting.


I have no idea what I am going to do at this point as my replacment from Amazon has already been sent out, and there is no way that I will be able to put up with these lines.


Folks;

He is not talking about line bleed. He is talking about black spacer lines between the horizontal rows of pixels. The OP recalls that a Samsung rep. had given an interview, in which he explained that they were going to insert permanently black spacer lines, between the lines of pixels.

The OP say that he can clearly see those permanent black lines, and they are annoying. It would be nice if some one could post a link to that interview with the Samsung rep, so we could get more details.

It all sounds rather strange. Infinite Black permanent lines, if you will. I hope this is not going to show up in all the models. Who the hell wants to see solid black lines running across bright scenes, or across the middle of Scarlett Johansson's pearly whites.
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post #65 of 1729
3/4/10 at 2:36pm
I know he is talking about something other than horiz. line bleed. But certain plasmas (including Samsungs) do tend to exhibit this phenomenon as well, and it was asked about so...

I attached a few pics @ 1920x1080 in a zip file. I put a 0 IRE to check for MLL (minimum luminance levels), a green preview screen and a capture from the 2008 Pioneer demo disc of a woman in a red dress on stairs to check for line bleed.

Throw them on a USB thumbdrive and take them to your local retailer and plug them in to the USB port to see for yourself. Sears usually doesn't mind if you walk right up to their TV's and fiddle with them.

 

0 IRE & Line Bleed Test Pics.zip 408.41015625k . file
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post #66 of 1729
3/4/10 at 8:27pm
Well I am either getting used to the buzz, or it is not as bad as it was when I first got the set on Saturday. I have the 50in and played around with the settings, and it is minimal to me now. Now if I am trying to listen to it, I can make it out, but I have very good hearing. I am willing to make some compromises for what I paid for this set. HD looks very nice, much better than my 42in 1080P Philips LCD in my bedroom. Blu Ray from PS3 is very clean. As far as glare, I have a floor lamp to the side of the set, that when it is on I can see on the screen, but the glare is no worse or better than the Old JVC RPTV that this set replaced. As with most flat panels, the sound sucks a$$. Since this is our primary television I may get a soundbar like the Vizio they sell at Costco, as I really was impressed with the sound on the one I installed at my mothers house in her bedroom.
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post #67 of 1729
3/4/10 at 8:59pm
I took those images and on my 42" c450 and no line bleed.
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post #68 of 1729
3/5/10 at 12:33am
I'm skeptical. How far away were you from the screen? I bet I could find line bleed on your plasma no problem. I saw it on all the 2009 Samsungs and Panny plasmas, and although it seemed much fainter on the 2010 Panny S2 I looked at this evening, it was still in fact there, if I looked closely for it. You might need to view the screen from a closer distance.
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post #69 of 1729
3/5/10 at 5:54am
Since you also have a 50inch set, do you see the horizontal black pixel spacers that they OP finds so annoying?




Quote:
Originally Posted by dbacksfan51 View Post

Well I am either getting used to the buzz, or it is not as bad as it was when I first got the set on Saturday. I have the 50in and played around with the settings, and it is minimal to me now. Now if I am trying to listen to it, I can make it out, but I have very good hearing. I am willing to make some compromises for what I paid for this set. HD looks very nice, much better than my 42in 1080P Philips LCD in my bedroom. Blu Ray from PS3 is very clean. As far as glare, I have a floor lamp to the side of the set, that when it is on I can see on the screen, but the glare is no worse or better than the Old JVC RPTV that this set replaced. As with most flat panels, the sound sucks a$$. Since this is our primary television I may get a soundbar like the Vizio they sell at Costco, as I really was impressed with the sound on the one I installed at my mothers house in her bedroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Alright, I figured out what the "scan lines" are, there is a solid black line of nothing between each horizontal row of pixels, each one of these lines is roughly half as thick as the pixel rows. (and the pixels are rectangular like on the 42inch models) After I figured this out I remembered a CES interview where a Samsung Rep said they were doing this on all their sets to improve the blacks in room lighting, they said that any blank spot between pixels would be "painted" black, what they didn't say was that they were going to add blank spots to achieve this.
(my 42px75 Panasonic plasma has no spacers between the pixels, and I would bet money that none of the previous years of Samsung plasma sets had them either)

Normally I can sit 8.5 feet from a 50inch 720p plasma set to get all signs of screen door effect to vanish, but thanks to these black lines, I have to move to 14.5 feet to get them to vanish. I would guess that roughly 1/3 of the screen is made up of these lines, maybe more.

At least this actually does make the blacks look good in room lighting.


I have no idea what I am going to do at this point as my replacment from Amazon has already been sent out, and there is no way that I will be able to put up with these lines.
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post #70 of 1729
3/5/10 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesco411 View Post

Definitely would like to hear your thoughts on the picture/blacks/buzzing, etc...

I got my second PN42C430 in from AMAZON today , I've got to say , for $494 I'm really , really impressed. As far as the buzz goes , there is a very faint high pitched buzz that can be heard if i put my ear within about 6 inches of the screen , it is nothing that I am even remotely concerned with , the fan in my laptop is louder. The blacks are black , as black as I would ask for , granted I do not have a second display to compare it to it in a completely dark room , but it is far blacker than the Mitsubishi DLP that I,m replacing. The picture looks great I used some settings that AVS forum member "dallows" posted in the "Samsung PN**B450 Picture Settings" thread. The pixels are square , and I see no abnormal spacing between them , the picture from a Blu-Ray is as sharp as I have seen from a 720P set. Bottom line is , I believe you would be hard pressed to find a better set any where near this price point , I will attempt to post pictures later on today.
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post #71 of 1729
3/5/10 at 9:32am
Excellent...great to hear you are happy with the set...
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post #72 of 1729
3/5/10 at 11:37am
Thread Starter 
Here is the video that references the black lines between the rows.
(skip to 3:35 in the video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BHns1WW43w


I called Samsung and got the usual rep that just reads what their screen says, they said that my replacement from Amazon WON'T have this, but I know better, I'll call them the day my replacment arrives and get a tech out to see this. If he can't make it before my 30 days at Amazon is up then I will simply get a refund.


I would also like to note that even with the Anynet+ feature turned off, it is still sending signals to my Panny blu-ray player and is causing several problems (like random copyright violations, freezing, and other wierd issues) it doesn't do this when hooked up to my 42px75 Panny so it has to be the Samsung causing this.

The buzz on my set is easily heard over normal content, even when playing games and stuff is blowing up all around me I still pick it up.

And IR is still really bad on these Samsungs, just as noticable over content as it was on my 4254 back in 07, but it does fade away quite a bit faster than that set did, so there is some improvment.
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post #73 of 1729
3/5/10 at 1:17pm
"Everything around the pixels is Painted Black!" Said the Samsung Rep at CES 2010.

So they have inserted permanent black pixel spacer lines. Those should look just lovely running across bright scenes.
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post #74 of 1729
3/5/10 at 10:00pm
Took a lot of what was said into consideration, and I still got the tv. Give me a night or two and i will have my feedback.
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post #75 of 1729
3/6/10 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 504boy View Post

Took a lot of what was said into consideration, and I still got the tv. Give me a night or two and i will have my feedback.

Did you get the 42" or the 50"?
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post #76 of 1729
3/6/10 at 8:03am
got my pn50c450 yesturday and got it set up. it has a slight buzz but not to bad i sit 10feet away and it isnt bad. great picture very happy with it. i dont see the lines that are talked about on the thread. and it was shipped straight up they had it straped to a palet. so maybe that helps with the buzzing
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post #77 of 1729
3/6/10 at 8:12am
pendragoon,
i feel for ya man. i hate the black levels on my panny and refuse to spend $5K+ on a pioneer right now. i don't have that kind of $$$ to throw around.

i was thinking about putting the panny downstairs for my wife to use, currently there is a panny tau tube tv down there, and get a tv that can actually produce blacks as intended. i don't think this is going to happen for another few years with either panny or samsung.

i have a question for you. all these tvs you are going through; do you get them all from amazon? how long do you have them for before you return them? my next tv i'm thinking about going to bestbuy just for the ability to return it if i don't like it. i got my v10 from vanns.com, but after 15 days you can't return it.
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post #78 of 1729
3/6/10 at 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

I can see jaggies on text on the 42 inchers from around 8 feet away.

For sure.
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post #79 of 1729
3/6/10 at 10:48pm
Pendragoon,
Does this Samsung have floating blacks, like the 720p Panasonics?
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post #80 of 1729
3/7/10 at 9:26am
well...... it sounds like the b450 is better than the c450.

seems kind of strange they would go down in picture quality.
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post #81 of 1729
3/7/10 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobbyTV View Post

well...... it sounds like the b450 is better than the c450.

seems kind of strange they would go down in picture quality.

I'm not sure where you are drawing that from...The OP suggested that the PQ of this set rivaled his V-series Panasonic, and that for the money, it could be one of the best budget plasmas out there. He also claimed it had one of the cleanest plasma images he'd seen as well. However, while he noticed a few issues with scan lines possibly resulting from painted pixel spacers, none of the other posters seem to have noticed that issue with the set.
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post #82 of 1729
3/7/10 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesco411 View Post

I'm not sure where you are drawing that from...The OP suggested that the PQ of this set rivaled his V-series Panasonic, and that for the money, it could be one of the best budget plasmas out there. He also claimed it had one of the cleanest plasma images he'd seen as well. However, while he noticed a few issues with scan lines possibly resulting from painted pixel spacers, none of the other posters seem to have noticed that issue with the set.

the PN50C450 in question has a flaw the OP can't live with.

"I have no idea what I am going to do at this point as my replacment from Amazon has already been sent out, and there is no way that I will be able to put up with these lines."

and there is a post of someone who purcahsed a PN42C450 then returned it for a PN42B450.

"I owned a 2010 PN42c450 and took it back to get the "B" 2009 model. Colors were so washed out I took it back after 24 hrs. the PN42B450 looked 10 times better out of the box and I even tried tweaking the "C" 2010 model for hrs. and could not get it to look right. Prices went down this year so I wonder if they sacrificed quality. I dont care for the new anti-glare screen that they are using either."

.
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post #83 of 1729
3/7/10 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesco411 View Post

Did you get the 42" or the 50"?

i got the 42

I do hear a buzz when bright images appear, but my surround sound drowns it out, the design (frame, look) is fresh like always

overall im happy
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post #84 of 1729
3/7/10 at 3:56pm
I had a chance to see this tv at Sears next to an S2. The first thing you realize about the S2 is the grey front filter. That pretty much ruins the picture to me with any lights on.

The 50C450 had slightly more line bleed than the S2, but you had to look for it up close, better color saturation, and almost no dithering. Seems very similar to what 2009 offered, in a way. The S2 was noisier.

The demo material they had was Celine Dion in concert and Sony demo stuff that usually gets shown at trade shows.

Anyone who doesn't watch their plasma in the dark would probably do just fine with a C450. It has an excellent filter, gets very bright, and the actual look of the screen was so very reminiscent of CRT. Even at 720p, it's a nice set. I thought of picking one up and I had no intention of purchasing a set today.

I don't even like Samsungs, but this set looked like it's blacks were better than the B860 that I would see at Bestbuy all the time.

It seems, from what I've been told, is getting the best blacks from these sets is to have a blu-ray player (PS3 or any other device that can send RGB to the TV, which is supposed to access HDMI Black Low).

I'm sure this year's sets will be better than last, since it was talked of in the avforums interview that they've been working on pre-charge or minimizing the reset pulse this year.


If you have a chance, the following pdf was linked here by xrox back in 2008. This gives you an idea of what Samsung is working on, including where they have aimed to be by 2010.

Although I don't think the build quality of the Korean products can hold a candle to the Japanese, I respect the Koreans for at least offering more calibration options to the consumer and, in a way, making for a competitive marketplace.

http://code.chinafpd.net/code2008/me...Technology.pdf


Still want to wait for some solid reviews on these. Hopefully ChadB will calibrate a C550 and compare it with the G20/25.
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post #85 of 1729
3/7/10 at 6:06pm
Well I am really enjoying mine, but I am not as critical as some when it comes to picture quality. If I paid two grand for the set I would not like the minor bit of buzzing I can hear sometimes at low sound levels, but for what I paid I can live with it. I am going to pick up one of the Vizio soundbars in the next few days so it will sound a bit better. It is not the worst flat panel I have heard but still stinks. I thought about going with a 5.1 setup, but don't want to deal with another HT setup. One in the house is enough.
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post #86 of 1729
3/7/10 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I had a chance to see this tv at Sears next to an S2. The first thing you realize about the S2 is the grey front filter. That pretty much ruins the picture to me with any lights on.

The 50C450 had slightly more line bleed than the S2, but you had to look for it up close, better color saturation, and almost no dithering. Seems very similar to what 2009 offered, in a way. The S2 was noisier.

The demo material they had was Celine Dion in concert and Sony demo stuff that usually gets shown at trade shows.

Anyone who doesn't watch their plasma in the dark would probably do just fine with a C450. It has an excellent filter, gets very bright, and the actual look of the screen was so very reminiscent of CRT. Even at 720p, it's a nice set. I thought of picking one up and I had no intention of purchasing a set today.

I don't even like Samsungs, but this set looked like it's blacks were better than the B860 that I would see at Bestbuy all the time.

It seems, from what I've been told, is getting the best blacks from these sets is to have a blu-ray player (PS3 or any other device that can send RGB to the TV, which is supposed to access HDMI Black Low).

I'm sure this year's sets will be better than last, since it was talked of in the avforums interview that they've been working on pre-charge or minimizing the reset pulse this year.


If you have a chance, the following pdf was linked here by xrox back in 2008. This gives you an idea of what Samsung is working on, including where they have aimed to be by 2010.

Although I don't think the build quality of the Korean products can hold a candle to the Japanese, I respect the Koreans for at least offering more calibration options to the consumer and, in a way, making for a competitive marketplace.

http://code.chinafpd.net/code2008/me...Technology.pdf


Still want to wait for some solid reviews on these. Hopefully ChadB will calibrate a C550 and compare it with the G20/25.

Very cool...excited to get mine knowing it compares very well to an S2....I'm hoping my 42" comes this week...HHGregg says shipping status is "pending" so it could be any day now...
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post #87 of 1729
3/7/10 at 8:03pm
I too just ordered a PN42C450 coming from a 52" LN52A580 panny which i sold to my parents as I had to move. I ended up getting a five year extended warranty for a little over $100 with a coupon code at crutchfield. After having the LN52A580's board and pwr supply die a month before the warranty ended has made me nervous.

I just watch ripped DvD's and Blue ray Rips from my PC and play xbox I will let u all know my thoughts when it gets here next week.

This cost about third of the $2000 I dropped on the 1080p 52" LN52A580....
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post #88 of 1729
3/7/10 at 8:58pm
Does anyone have a good set of settings yet for the C450's ? I tried a few from the B450 thread but the colors seem a little off on most of them.
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post #89 of 1729
3/7/10 at 9:34pm


the skin tones seem to be a little bit red than tha white im looking for, i only had it for a couple of days so im not doing the calibration thing just yet,

I played wit the flesh tone a little but the skins still seem a bit red, does anybody kno another way to change that up a lil.
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post #90 of 1729
3/8/10 at 3:13am
any updates on the horizontal line bleed?
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