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Review: Epik Empire and Seaton Submersive - Page 2

post #31 of 721
3/3/10 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

uh huh...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post18116126

Obviously he doesn't believe Chad and his friend knows more about that driver than Chad does (or is willing to admit to) ...

It doesn't matter ...
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post #32 of 721
3/3/10 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

It doesn't matter ...

it does for those who missed the referenced discussion and who believe everything they read on the interweb...
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post #33 of 721
3/3/10 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

it does for those who missed the referenced discussion and who believe everything they read on the interweb...

I missed that discussion sadly. I'll delete my post.
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post #34 of 721
3/3/10 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dookie1 View Post

it does for those who missed the referenced discussion and who believe everything they read on the interweb...

Your link was relevant. I meant it doesn't matter who makes the driver. Sorry.
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post #35 of 721
3/3/10 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

Just what this thread needs- another Materials Cost Analyst

Chad must have refused to sell you an Empire or something because you've had a hard-on for this sub since it came out.

, not hardy if knew about my setup. I said numerous times that I am not knocking anything about it, but when people make often ridiculous comparisons to other products or ridiculous claims about performance, I just can't stop from typing.

But, it doesn't take an analyst, just a little common sense.

Just do the math or show me the data.

There are reasons why things are priced the way they are, it's called cost + profit.
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post #36 of 721
3/3/10 at 5:30pm
Thread Starter 
Hey guys. Thanks for the comments and the encouragement. I'm not
brave. I just thought that people would want to know how they compare.
I will do my best to be fair and unbiased, but so far I can say that
both the Submersive and the dual Empires are AMAZING. They both
seem really well designed and engineered subs. They sound tight, clean and
they've got great low end output. I don't think that there will be a
"loser" in my review regardless of the results. They both blow away my
old DD-15 and cost less so I am already happy.

I am currently trying to get REW up and running to try to get some
measurements. My old Velo had that fancy built-in room EQ system, so
this might take some time to set up and get used to. I am ordering all
kinds of little adaptors and wires so I hope it actually works. I am
also trying to get TrueRTA up and running for some SPL tests during
movies. I might lose my patience before then, but I will try.
Moving the subs in and out of the listening room for A/B testing is
already trying my patience, but I think the results will be worth it.
I'll try to get some pictures up soon too.
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post #37 of 721
3/3/10 at 6:12pm
It should prove to be an interesting shootout.

Keep us posted!
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post #38 of 721
3/3/10 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

There is a reason you can buy two of them for $1499 (to include 4 drivers), the components are cheap.
I just used a Dayton 15" DVC driver in a recent build and it is better buit than those and it was $130 (retail!) on sale.
So, you know it had to cost <$100 to produce...
I am not knocking it or the design or Epik, but you do get what you pay for. Everything has a price and a cost....

This entire post of yours is worthless personal opinion-unless you can post a purchase receipt for what Chad pays for his components STFU-I dont think any of us give a damn what you think it cost to produce the drivers for the Empire. We are here for michman's review of the Submersive and dual Empires....
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post #39 of 721
3/3/10 at 7:05pm
michman, sounds like you know what you're doing

They way you are going about this, people might have a hard time picking your testing and evaluation practices apart as has been done in the past!
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post #40 of 721
3/3/10 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewm27 View Post

I missed that discussion sadly. I'll delete my post.

it was your post he was responding to!

pay attention, boyfriend.
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post #41 of 721
3/3/10 at 7:25pm
Frankly, I think this will be a difficult comparison to do *fairly*. You are comparing dual Empires to a single Submersive. It will be difficult to separate the benefits of duals from the rest of the comparison. I realize that dual Empires are close in pricepoint to a single Submersive, (actually cheaper), and that makes the comparison interesting. Still, duals of *any* sub will have an inherent significant advantage over a single of any other sub, (3 to 6 dB of increased output plus the potential for flatter frequency response across a larger seating area.)

I would like to see you compare a single Empire to a single Submersive. I would like to know how singles compare in terms of output, FR, and extension. Then it will be much easier to make extrapolations about what duals could add to the equation. You could then verify those extrapolations with the dual Empires. It could certainly end up that dual Empires are a better "system" than a single Submersive, but we won't know for sure whether what you're hearing and measuring is because the two subs are actually better or because the combined output of the two subs is better in your room.

Craig
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post #42 of 721
3/3/10 at 7:38pm
you're converting from balanced to unbalanced... use balanced only! or get a filter! epik probably has one inside. Or just cut the ground off the your input...
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post #43 of 721
3/3/10 at 7:46pm
The way the drivers look has little effect on performance. Low cost stapled steel baskets done right will provide a stable platform for even larger magnetic structures. In the case the Submersive and Epik sub use nothing fancy,it just does the job . And you pay much less. Better price performance ratio.

This said I sure love my LMS-5400/Ultra drivers,nothing like a beastly driver.
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post #44 of 721
3/3/10 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike2069 View Post

people might have a hard time picking your testing and evaluation practices apart as has been done in the past!

Not a chance... This is the subwoofer forum after all.
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post #45 of 721
3/3/10 at 8:10pm
Dual Empires versus a single Submersive is a perfectly valid test, considering the pricepoints. If the advantage of dual subs coupled with the much lower price makes the Empires come out on top then so be it. It would mean that the duals were a better buy, given the lower cost. Comparing a single Empire to the Submersive is inherently unfair, as it is less than half the cost. Still, if the single Empire did well in comparison, what would that tell us.........!
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post #46 of 721
3/3/10 at 8:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Frankly, I think this will be a difficult comparison to do *fairly*. You are comparing dual Empires to a single Submersive. It will be difficult to separate the benefits of duals from the rest of the comparison. I realize that dual Empires are close in pricepoint to a single Submersive, (actually cheaper), and that makes the comparison interesting. Still, duals of *any* sub will have an inherent significant advantage over a single of any other sub, (3 to 6 dB of increased output plus the potential for flatter frequency response across a larger seating area.)

I would like to see you compare a single Empire to a single Submersive. I would like to know how singles compare in terms of output, FR, and extension. Then it will be much easier to make extrapolations about what duals could add to the equation. You could then verify those extrapolations with the dual Empires. It could certainly end up that dual Empires are a better "system" than a single Submersive, but we won't know for sure whether what you're hearing and measuring is because the two subs are actually better or because the combined output of the two subs is better in your room.

Craig

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Dual Empires versus a single Submersive is a perfectly valid test, considering the pricepoints. If the advantage of dual subs coupled with the much lower price makes the Empires come out on top then so be it. It would mean that the duals were a better buy, given the lower cost. Comparing a single Empire to the Submersive is inherently unfair, as it is less than half the cost. Still, if the single Empire did well in comparison, what would that tell us.........!

I can understand both viewpoints and if he's up for it, I hope the OP is willing to compare singles and then dual Empires to the single Submersive as craig john suggested. It's highly unlikely that someone with the budget for a Submersive would consider a single Empire unless the Empire were proven to perform similarly (I'd personally doubt it - at least not below 30hz or so). Thus, I'd expect most real-world potential buyers would indeed be selecting between a single Submersive or DUAL Empires. That said, it would be interesting to see the numbers of each subwoofer individually. As craig john mentioned, there are certain benefits which almost always come from using two subwoofers that might taint the results of a single-vs.-dual test - at least in terms of being able to discern the merits of each individual subwoofer. Fortunately, the OP seems to be very unbiased and genuinely wants to find the best subwoofer solution for his needs - not promote his favorite "brand". At any rate, I will be eagerly following this thread.
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post #47 of 721
3/3/10 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Dual Empires versus a single Submersive is a perfectly valid test, considering the pricepoints. If the advantage of dual subs coupled with the much lower price makes the Empires come out on top then so be it. It would mean that the duals were a better buy, given the lower cost. Comparing a single Empire to the Submersive is inherently unfair, as it is less than half the cost. Still, if the single Empire did well in comparison, what would that tell us.........!

It's good to see you've found a new bandwagon to hop on.

Do you need to stop in a phone booth to change into your cape before you post in this thread so you can save people from throwing their money away on a Submersive when they could buy dual empires instead?
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post #48 of 721
3/3/10 at 8:46pm
Michman - Subscribed!!

Thanks for doing this comparo for those of us out here that are considering the exact same choice, like me!
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post #49 of 721
3/3/10 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereodude View Post

it's good to see you've found a new bandwagon to hop on.

do you need to stop in a phone booth to change into your cape before you post in this thread so you can save people from throwing their money away on a submersive when they could buy dual empires instead?

l...o...l!!!
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post #50 of 721
3/3/10 at 9:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

It's true Epik's new drivers don't compare with the F113, PB13-Ultra, LMS-5400, Maelstrom-X, etc, but in this particular design they really don't have to. Chad has already stated that the drivers in the Empire are better than those used in the Valor/Knight/Caliber. He's also stated that the magnet strength vs. cone weight ratio of this new driver is higher than ANY other Epik driver so far.

Agreed on alot of points, but I highly doubt the drivers are better.

Double stacked magnets? Did we forget the drivers used in at least the Knight and Caliber were triple stacked? And also, how can you say the drivers are beefier in the Empire, when a Knight, with a SINGLE 15" driver, weighs the same as a sub with DUAL 15's, and an amp that puts out twice as much power?

Just saying......
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post #51 of 721
3/3/10 at 10:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by combos99 View Post

Agreed on alot of points, but I highly doubt the drivers are better.

Double stacked magnets? Did we forget the drivers used in at least the Knight and Caliber were triple stacked? And also, how can you say the drivers are beefier in the Empire, when a Knight, with a SINGLE 15" driver, weighs the same as a sub with DUAL 15's, and an amp that puts out twice as much power?

Just saying......

How do you define "better"? I'm no expert on this but what does weight/size/beef/double stack (hold the pickles pls) have to do with how well a driver performs in the enclosure it was designed for? Aren't there other variables such as sensitivity and whatnot to consider in regards to amplifier power? Why would you say a driver from one sub it better than the driver in an Empire because weighs more?

Don't get me wrong, I'm just looking for some clarification.
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post #52 of 721
3/4/10 at 4:43am
The Submersive doesn't need an auto-on feature, as it uses less power when idle than most subs do when on "standby".

Also a hum issue isn't the fault of a subwoofer.
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post #53 of 721
3/4/10 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

This entire post of yours is worthless personal opinion-unless you can post a purchase receipt for what Chad pays for his components STFU-I dont think any of us give a damn what you think it cost to produce the drivers for the Empire. We are here for michman's review of the Submersive and dual Empires....

But, you must since you chose to respond.

99% of these threads are opinions and speculation. If you don't like, go somewhere else.
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post #54 of 721
3/4/10 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dondino View Post

How do you define "better"? I'm no expert on this but what does weight/size/beef/double stack (hold the pickles pls) have to do with how well a driver performs in the enclosure it was designed for? Aren't there other variables such as sensitivity and whatnot to consider in regards to amplifier power? Why would you say a driver from one sub it better than the driver in an Empire because weighs more?

Don't get me wrong, I'm just looking for some clarification.

No no, you guys are definitely right, I was just simply saying that the drivers in that sub just dont look as "well made" as some of the older Epik stuff is all

Ah well, cant wait for the comparison!
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post #55 of 721
3/4/10 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by combos99 View Post

No no, you guys are definitely right, I was just simply saying that the drivers in that sub just dont look as "well made" as some of the older Epik stuff is all

And that is exactly what I was saying.
You can't tell from the basket, but the motor structure does not "look" impressive especially for a sealed alignment where BL is so important.
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post #56 of 721
3/4/10 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

But, you must since you chose to respond.

99% of these threads are opinions and speculation. If you don't like, go somewhere else.

When you make negative assertions about a product I for one would like you to base or back-up said assertions on factual information and not speculative drivel about your recent build. Do you own an Empire? Have you ever seen one and been able to inspect the build and quality? Sorry to inform you, but evidence is mounting that it is a high quality, well built subwoofer with performance that is making it's owner's very happy. I'm still waiting for those Epik receipts proving Chad's use of "cheap components".
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post #57 of 721
3/4/10 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post

When you make negative assertions about a product I for one would like you to base or back-up said assertions on factual information and not speculative drivel about your recent build. Do you own an Empire? Have you ever seen one and been able to inspect the build and quality? Sorry to inform you, but evidence is mounting that it is a high quality, well built subwoofer with performance that is making it's owner's very happy. I'm still waiting for those Epik receipts proving Chad's use of "cheap components".

As a matter of fact, once again, I never knocked it at all. Yes, I have had heard them and never stated that they were not worth the money. I simply stated that you get what you pay for. In fact, I have heard them and have assisted other members in calibrating their setups. Some are comparing them to models costing much more and or even ported subs, which gets a little over the top.) Everyone I talk to is thrilled with them and they should be.
This thread and most others are about comparison. I am comparing the drivers in the Empire with drivers from other capable products. The simple fact that there is an economic reason for why 4 drivers, two amps, two enclosures can be had for <$1500 AND why it costs around the same for a single PB-13 or XXX model from company B. So, performance perspective is in order. But, I guess I must be wrong, they must be losing money on every one. They are probably part of the stimulus plan or subsidized like corn. Just like there are reasons that my other drivers cost as much as two empires.

Obviously, at least one other person thought the same thing I did, wonder who posted the pictures first?
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post #58 of 721
3/4/10 at 7:12am
It sounds like you should be readily able to tell us the profit margin on the Empire and Ultra since you've got the build costs of each figured out. Based on your logic, when the Introductory pricing on the Empire ends and the price for 1 is $999.00 the drivers will automatically be of higher quality.....right?
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post #59 of 721
3/4/10 at 7:32am
There's a good chance that the profit margin is very slim with the introductory price in order to just get some into the wild and get some word of mouth going. Chad told me he had sold more Empires in the last month than he had sold all of his various subs last year. Sounds like if that's the plan it's working.
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post #60 of 721
3/4/10 at 7:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

It's good to see you've found a new bandwagon to hop on.

Do you need to stop in a phone booth to change into your cape before you post in this thread so you can save people from throwing their money away on a Submersive when they could buy dual empires instead?


What?? No bandwagon here, just curiosity. I have no idea how the dual Empires will compare to a single Submersive, but if they are comparable that would indicate a buyers choice situation, single or duals. Comparing two items when one costs much more is always a problem, if the lower cost competitor comes close in performance it's looked on like a great deal. If the higher priced item edges out the win it's viewed as an expected result, no big deal. The only way a $2K sub can be viewed as the true winner is to soundly stomp all over the lower priced sub(s), or else it will appear as overpriced. No one wants their expensive toy to look bad, so owners of Submersives may get upset about the potential results. Best of luck to the two manufacturers, let the games begin!
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